Nevermet

1 minute ago, soltakss said:

Just do what I do and talk rubbish all the time.

Do you want me to start talking about postmodernism?  Cuz that's how you get me talking about postmodernism.

🤡

As for the 5 Arkats influencing Maniria, I'm assuming that the Reforestation will severely limit overland travel between Ralios & Maniria

8 minutes ago, Richard S. said:

Argath (well, one of them) is basically confirmed to be a reincarnation of Arkat, especially following Belintar and Sedenya/Jar-Eel's conversation in Prince of Sartar. It's possible that he, or someone acting in his name, is one of the Arkats of Ralios.

I had forgotten that.

2 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Is this in any way going to affect Argrath & the other "Arkats" (speaking in the mythopoeic sense)?

I don't see how, at least for a few decades.  I mean, Dragon Pass and the Safelster city states don't have many interaction.

There's definitely limited material, but as far as I know, you've got the handle of it: Safeslter and Ralios devolve into a crazy 5-way civil war when 5 different versions of the Great Arkat all show up claiming to be the One True Arkat.  There will be crazy amounts of war and politics as they figure that out.

As for how that relates to other parts of the Hero Wars? 

• It weights heavily on Tanisor's dreams of expanding empire. 
• IIRC, eastern Ralios is going to get Reforested by the Elves, so that'll be a mess for the Arkats to deal with (I wonder if any can play nice with the Aldryami). 
• I don't think it will effect Fronela much, but I could be wrong.
• Somehow, Dorastor is going to be an issue.
• The Pralori are probably going to try to expand their power wherever the Reforestation occurs.  So, Galini vs. Pralori cavalry battles are likely.

I've lost track of what people are arguing about.

I think we can all agree that, by our moral compasses

• Freedom good
• Imperialism bad
• Embracing diversity good
• Mass slaughter bad
• Self-Determination good
• Blind Traditionalism bad
• At any given point in time, different societies will likely have a different mix of good & bad elements
• In either our world or Glorantha, it's probably not the best goal to make a single, objective, eternal moral judgment on an entire religion or culture over its 400 - 1600 year history.

What have I missed?

ok, here's the most coherent part of what I was trying to say:

Be Like Arkat! 

We Should All Read the Glorantha Voices again!

As a game setting, the point of Glorantha is to facilitate interesting and fun play.  It does so by offering a rich array of cultures with extremely different answers to the following questions:

1. What is good / evil?
2. When is violence justified?
3. What are the proper relationships with which supernatural entities?
4. How does/will our society fall short of its own ideal in practice?

It's important that Glorantha is great at giving answers "internal" to a given community, rather than "objective" answers.  We then get to see how characters become invested in certain ideals, and how their commitments to those ideals work.  And in the process, we as players probably get an appreciation of how their values work and don't work.

Like, the Lunars have an obvious tension between their valuing difference (which they do in many ways), and their imperialistic ambitions.  How a Lunar character in Sartar deals with that tension is potentially interesting.  Similarly, Sartarite and Heortling characters have a commitment to both freedom and tradition.  Figuring that out in play could be interesting.  The Trader Princes want profit and mutual understanding.  And so on.  Glorantha as a world is a grab bag of ethical tensions, begging for player characters to be miserable as they struggle to untangle them, for our entertainment as players.

...this is not a complete post, and it doesn't engage the thread well, but it's something that uses words correctly.

I just spend the last 30 minutes trying to write a post and gave up, because I couldn't figure out how to be coherent.  🥺

As a guy who was born in North America in 1977, and who generally likes democracy, I probably would loathe about 98% of all political arrangements found in Glorantha, and I also would agree that the Lunar imperial expansion into Sartar and the Holy Country is, by 21st Century standards, unjust and it has wronged the Sartarites, the Heortlings, and (to a lesser extent) the Esrolians.

That said, I would happily play Lunar characters, and I would happily do so and make many of them trying to live a good and just life as their community defined and understand it.  I would also happily play an Orlanthi, knowing their understanding of the good is not the one my social and religious communities would promote.

Also, um... question: I don't want this to be a narcissistic activity, occasionally punctuated with cries for help.

How do I make an actual play thread that encourages discussion?

I too remember the Forge, as Pelorians remember the Bright Empire 🤓

ok, so, I'm seeing partial consensus that Grimoires are text of some kind (whether it's written, projected, etc).

And I'm seeing more consensus that "orthodox" Western societies tend to centralize sorcery in the Wizard caste, to the partial exclusion of the other castes (especially Horali and Dronari).

Is that accurate?

This is a spin-off thread from the Non-Book Grimoires, and Caste thread.

In short, the Third Eye Blue clan is a big, ugly knot.  I don't have my Stafford Library books open right now (and I'm not bothering to at the moment for reasons that shall become apparent).  So, I'm exclusively going off their presentation in the Sourcebook and Guide, the 2 "canonical" setting pieces for Glorantha right now.

According to the Guide, The Third Eye Blue...

• Are sorcerous metal-workers
• Stole metalworking secrets from the Mostali
• Originally from the highlands of Tastolar in Fronela, which is still under the Ban
• Claim to once have had a great empire in Fronela
• Arguably the best bronze-workers in Genertela
• In addition to stealing Dwarven secrets, they also have enslaved Dwarves in Kitor, who are bound by ancient oaths to a god called Three-Eyes Piku

And then, according to the the Glorantha Sourcebook, Syranthir "brought the Third Eye Blue cult of metal-smiths to Peloria" (P. 153).

There's a few headaches in all of this.  FIrst and foremost, I guess this means that the Stafford Library mentions of the Third Eye Blue. described as living in the Brass mountains since before the Dawn where they helped Daxdarius and fought both the Blue People and Bull People, no longer is considered factual history?  maybe the Third Eye Blue settled in the Brass mountains and hybridized with a pre-existing group there?

Also, the Guide also creates some headaches, because it isn't just about stealing knowledge from Mostali, but enslaving them.  So, either Mostali were in the Brass Mountains, and enslaved before time, or Syranthir brought a coterie of Mostali thralls to Pelanda with him.

And on the topic of stealing metal secrets, there is a town in Fronela according to the Guide there is a town called Enneserah where "The miners worship an underground god
called Ganestos, who stole the secrets of the dwarves."

...ok.  so.... um.... blargh.

2 hours ago, metcalph said:

I doubt that Piku and the like actually use sorcery spells (when they ally with Daxdarius, they are described as magicians who want him to destroy some sorcerors Fortunate Succession p82).  More likely it's rune magic of how Piku stole the metal-making secrets from the dwarves.

This is off-topic, but the Third Eye Blue clan are just... a mess.  The Guide refers to them as sorcerous, but also worshipping a God who enslaved Dwarves.  And more confusing, the Sourcebook claims they came to Carmania with Syranthir, essentially retconning several Stafford Library works.

This may be an odd question, but I'm curious and I'm pretty sure this is the right forum (as opposed to one of the specific game fora): Are all sorcerous grimoires written texts in Glorantha?  Are there any cultures that have secret songs (for one example) that function as a grimoire, something one can study and gain insights into the impersonal forces of the universe, allowing the individual to cast a certain number of specific spells? 

A related question: in western, caste-based societies, how likely would it be for one to find, say, a donari who is basically a powerful sorcerer based in an exclusively agricultural school of sorcery?  Or is it expected that Talari, Dronari, and Horali may know a couple of spells, but its always the literate Wizard Caste that bring the big spells in big books?

I've found a few blog entries by Ron Edwards, and I found a few videos of his on Youtube, but does anyone know if there is a text of the game anywhere, or if there is a timeline for it to be released?

Is anyone else making or thinking of making a QW Supers game?

I just thought I should ask.

Calamity Comes to Selgos, Session 1

Short version: I love my players, and this gloriously gonzo campaign.

The Hook for the Session

The player characters are going to Selgos to cash in the favours an aristocrat owed them.  Also, one player has a magic item she wants to investigate.

Before IC Play

As my players are all completely new to Glorantha, I am dribbling out setting bits.  This session had a few bits:

• An explanation of the Uz
• An explanation of Castelein
  • An explanation that there are 52 total tombs with various body parts of Castelein.
  • IMG, the Great Tomb of Castelein in Selgos contains the right hand and both feet of Castelein
• A discussion of the trade trying to shift toward the sea and Fay Jee, but friggin' Handra.

This went too long (just over half an hour), and everyone was getting impatient, but they were also asking a lot of questions.  

My plan for the Session

My goal was to set up a problem the PCs need to solve:

• The aristocrat that owes them favours is in financial dire straights
• To avoid bankruptcy, she has allowed recruiters from the warlord Greymane to set up shop at her vineyard just outside the the city walls of Selgos
  • One of the PCs was branded a coward for not properly killing and pillaging in Greymane's last march into Esrolia
• The head recruiter's son is an obnoxious hothead, and he will cause violent trouble in town that may come back to haunt the PCs and their noblewoman

...that was my plan.

What Happened: None of That

• The PCs also find out Greymane's men are in town, and none of them are big fans of a massive army, so they agree quickly they DEFINITELY need to make a ton of money to keep their noblewoman out of Greymane's pocket.
• The Initiate of Donandar offered to put on a benefit concert.  They spend the day planning & promoting the concert
  • The Ditali healer actively avoids Greymane's men while promoting the concert.  He also finds out that herbs and alchemical components are being stolen from merchants in town.  He does not know that these are ogres collecting things to summon the Cacodemon.
  • The Merchant of Jubal rolls a COMPLETE VICTORY on trying to hunt down political gossip on the city, and a major victory for promoting the concert.  As a result, I basically showed her the core relationship map of the NPCs.  Also, I decided that since they are planning on holding the concert in honour of their noblewoman in the main plaza, I decided that the Greymane recruiters hold a rally in the plaza every night.  I am explicitly leaning into what the PCs are asking for, and I am going to give them a Manirian Battle of the Bands.
  • The Skald with the magical instrument plans the concert with the innkeeper who is allied with the noblewoman, Happy Steve.  Upon finding out that she will be having competition, she marches over to the Greymane-aligned bar, announces her intention to hold a concert, and then rolls to try to show her stuff.  She burns a HP to get a complete victory... using a magical instrument.  This game is increasingly inspired by Tenacious D.

And that was our short, 2.5 hour session.  The game is goofy and glorious as my PCs scheme their way into being economic players in Maniria, and the Bard is actively seeking fame and fortune.  Along the way, they're going to tick off Greymane's lieutenants, and confuse the current lord of Selgos, who is going to FREAK that his younger sister is apparently trying to endear herself to the public.

I love how proactive my players are.  They plow ahead, and make glorious messes that they totally own.

1 hour ago, M Helsdon said:

It's a common theme in real and fantasy mythologies.

One factor in Glorantha is that each Age is less magical than the one before it, another theme in real mythologies, such as the Greek myth ages of gold, silver, and bronze. In Glorantha, the magic is gradually going away.

Which is interesting because magic is also the primary locus of invention from what I can tell.  Metalworking was known at the Dawn, but in the last 1600 years, people have developed Heroquesting, developed various ways of hacking heroquests, invented a few ways to create gods, created draconic mysticism, etc etc etc.

Magic in all its forms is the primary "technology" of Glorantha, and Argrath is (probably) going to help extinguish it, which is going to be bad for a lot of people (but maybe good in the long term, if one takes a particularly dour reading of Velortinian philosophy - Gods are never responsible for the world - as truth). 

1 hour ago, Ian Absentia said:

When will we see a fillable PDF version?

!i!

[That's a joke, son. I say-I say, a joke!]

[Edit: Wait, no.  Now I'm scrolling up and realising that, of course, others asked first and weren't joking.]

In my defense, I worded it as a dream

Another thing that is a key theme, at least for me, in Glorantha, is that it doesn't last.  Empires will fall, and new great powers will rise, and they will fall again.  The wheel of history will eventually crush it all.  The greatest horrors in Glorantha are done by societies that believe they can break that cycle, that they will be different. (Mind you, there's plenty of horror to go around).  On the "pig picture" level, Glorantha borders on fatalism.

I'm tempted to say that the place where it isn't fatalistic is something Jajagappa said up thread: individuals can change things.  However, in my current mood, that feels a bit too pollyanna.  Glorantha is more likely to run off the adage that if a hero lives long enough, they become the villain.

7 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Handra has a Queen.  She'd do it the Esrolian/Ernaldan way: make them an offer they can't refuse.

Smelch + Wolf Pirates.  The former will go after ships to/from Seshnela.  The latter are raiding the whole Genertelan coast.  

Also, we've got the Nolos diaspora underway as thousands flee Guilmarn's advance.  Many will go to Handra and Fay Jee, many go all the way to Nochet.

On the plus side, this brings ships and soldiers looking for employment.  Convenient forces to deal with Smelch, and possibly Highcastle.

On the down side, it brings disruption of local economy, refugees, beggars, religious differences, etc.

Totally agree on all of this.

Partly because it fits the information on the setting, and partly for aesthetic reasons, IMG, Maniria never becomes the site of truly massive battles.  Gigantic armies belong in Dragon Pass or Sheshnela.  The struggles in Maniria will take a different shape.

There will be fights, of course.  But Greymane's army is one of the last great armies in Maniria before the flood.

That;s enough for right now, but I need to work out more about how inheritance of titles & property works.

Anything else in there make sense or seem like a bad idea?

27 minutes ago, Borygon said:

Yes, but could Handra take it? Its population is around 10 000. How many of these are citizens and how many of these are resident merchants exempt from military service? In cases of total and absolute war (ww2) a country can mobilize around 1/3 of its population. Lets assume Handra would go all in , Thats around 3 000 militiamen +mercs against combined power of trader princes. Lets assume 15 000 spears in total. Yup, they cannot really do that.  Princes also cannot attack Handra,  since they lack fleets, and even if they did Handra has bigger one , and , looking at the size in AAA, they can probably even have farms on some of Handras islands, making it impossible to blockade at  sea and starve it out . The worst princes can do is hamper trade on the river, but then Handra still is a midway point between Seshnela and Holy Kingdom. Handra is in pretty damn great position. The only forces able to touch it are naval superpowers, like returned Waertegi or Wolf Pirates.

I think that the biggest enemy for Handra, at least at the start, would be the pirate kingdom of Smelch, as it directly threatens the way to Seshnela, and losing it would mean quick death if trader princes did what I said higher up. This might be a really high priority if Khorst is Manirian colony (it seems so.) . It might be a free port, but that does not mean that it isnt a personal project of a Handran higher up, or that the leaders of the Khorsty merchant guild do not also have seats in Handra.

If this is true, then it opens up another route of attack for trader princes: capturing Khorst as Handran colony. It sits dangerously close to Ramalian capital, and they probably wouldnt be hard to convince to attack it.

I haven't really thought systematically about the areas beyond the Trader Princes yet, but I agree that Smelch is an enemy, as is Fay Jee.  I'm assuming Ramalia will eventually get angry at it, but that's not as immediate.

As for can Handra take Highwater.... it'd be hard.  If that happened, it would require Bastis imploding for one reason or another, and Handra would need to hire a lot of Pralori mercenaries and promise a larger toll for a while. (Also, I really need to spend time on the Pralori, aka, the REAL human rulers of Maniria.)

I want to get back to Castelein & Asharan philosophy, but I need to prep for my game tomorrow night, so here are my current thoughts about Manirian cities.

The Manirian city is treated as the territory of a "special clan," a Trader Prince clan.  It is neutral ground for clan and tribe business, and foreigners are granted a degree of freedom and acceptance within the city and along the road (in the clan lands, well... you best have a reason, a GOOD reason, that you can explain quickly).  Generally, TP Cities are organized into 3 wards called "Thirds": The Princely Third, the Manirian Third, and the Welcoming Third.

The Manirian Third

Each clan maintains a longhouse in the city, headed by a Matriarch.  The City Matriarchs are the clan representatives to the Trader Princes, and they offer a safe lodging to any clan members visiting the city.  There are almost always some clanspeople in a city, either working semi-permanently in a city, engaging in trade, or something else.  Generally, the Manirian Third within the walls has the longhouses and key temples.  Outside the walls would be secondary markets, farmlands, etc.

The Trader Princes

In most cities, the Trader Princes are an extended family comprising 1-5 distinct households.  There are intricate rules identifying personal wealth and city wealth.  Nominally, these laws are to prevent corruption, but they are often subverted easily.  While the head Wizard of the city's Ashara College is usually a member of the ruling family, the priests of the various Orlanthi and local gods and spirits are a mix of clansmen and Trader Princes.

One of the reasons for the cities being hotbeds of politics is that any adult Trader Prince, male or female, could be elected the next king or queen of the tribe.  As a result, personal patronage of individuals to the outer clans is constant and often blunt.

The Trader Princes work off a variant of the Manirian model, where women own the property, and men are administrators and judges.  Thus, one generation you will have a Trader Prince King who is a famous lawspeaker, and next you will have a Trader Princess Queen famous for her vineyard.

The Princely Third

This is the portion of the city directly under control of the Trader Prince.  It's often the highest portion of the city, often with artificial terraces and mounds for various people and functions.  These are sometimes of stone, and sometimes of perishable materials.  There is usually a court, elite residences, guest residences for dignitaries, and a complex for the city's standing army (a grandiose term for usually a few dozen mercenaries and thanes on loan from clans).  

(BTW, given the environment, my visual inspiration for a lot of the Manirian culture are the Missippian culture from pre-columbian North America:)

The Welcoming Third

This is the portion of the city for trade and travellers.  This is where one finds markets, caravanserai, warehouses, etc.  Rules vary, but generally strangers to a city are only allowed into the other Thirds if they have an invitation from someone who lives there.  This has created a small business for "city guides" who sell their invitations and help travellers navigate the city geographically and socially.  Guides range from expert ambassadors to manipulative con-men.

The Walls

Almost all Trader Prince cities have strong, impressive city walls, though their style ranges from Ralian to Esrolian, depending on geographic location.  The main exception is Highwater, which still has most of its Slontan fortifications.  Though not a Trader Prince city, the walls of Kaxtorplose are worth mentioning, as they are the strongest, most alien walls in the region, as they were built by Kaxtor using earth sorcery.

Beyond the Wall

Outside the walls of the city are the Trader Prince "estates," the agricultural lands directly controlled by the Trader Princes.  They are worked by a combination of thralls, Manirian cottars, and even some foreign indentured servants.

As I said elsewhere, this is what I expect a Pralori to look like

Also, I like the Mastery within Spirit rune tattoo or body paint.