Nevermet

31 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

I think you two just also solved the Lunar obsession with finding a warm water port and, failing that, keeping the strategic Dorastor route open despite immeasurable losses.

I live to serve  

10 hours ago, Leingod said:

I definitely agree with suspicion and a refusal to leave their clan lands to live in a "foreign" city (insofar as things that have been around for hundreds of years can still be called such) is probably a big part of why the Trader Prince cities are small on the one hand, and on the other the Trader Princes themselves are mostly interested in just having a secure stronghold to meet their needs, service travelers, and facilitate trade. Anything else would be a bonus, and likely a costly one if the Trader Princes are going to be the ones investing in that (and who else would it be?). So a city of 3,000 or so is just fine as far as they're concerned; it doesn't take a metropolis to make money off the caravans.

On the other hand - and I realize you probably weren't actually being very serious about it - I feel like the simple realities of the situation keeps it from being a situation where the Trader Princes are despotic imperialist exploiters of the natives like you've kind of implied. The Trader Princes don't have a strong relationship with their ancestral homeland that would allow them to bring in reinforcements if the natives got uppity (and have also adopted the local languages and a lot of their customs), and they also don't have enough of a technological or military advantage (especially not the latter, since their military is mostly elite mercenaries drawn from the local clans and the Pralori) for their position to really be something that could ever exist without, at minimum, the grudging tolerance of the people around them.

The Guide is pretty clear about a few things regarding the Trader Princes and their relationships to the Manirians:

Quote

The rulers are called the Trader Princes. They are judges, priests, and the rulers of the small cities of Maniria, but most of all they are the merchants who facilitate trade between the Holy Country and Ralios. The wealth and status of the Trader Princes comes from their control of the trade along the Manirian Road. They procure the finest luxuries for themselves and distribute them to their key supporters and allies, binding the local chieftains to them.

...The majority of the population are members of Orlanthi clans with their own chieftains and religious leaders. The Trader Princes serve as a hereditary nobility of merchants, judges, and priests, and rule with the collaboration of the local chieftains. The tribes elect a king, traditionally one of the Trader Princes, to arbitrate disputes between the clans. In times of war, they choose a war chieftain, usually an Orlanthi ruler, to serve as military leader. In recent years, the Solanthi tribes and their Ditali allies have chosen to follow the Solanthi chieftain Greymane as their warlord. (P. 350)

The Trader Princes and their cities are an institutionalized part of Manirian society: "The City" is where you go to make inter-clan negotiations, and engage in commerce with the world beyond Maniria.  A king in Maniria is less like Guilmarn, and more a "chief mediator" between clans.  Of course, combining that with commerce means they wield a lot of influence.  They're less despotic and exploitative than they are corrupt and manipulative.  The most powerful Trader Princes control the clans through a complicated web of patronage, favours, and outright bribery.  The most loved Trader Princes are the ones who really seem to be a genuine arbiter between clans.  The most short lived are the ones who make promises and threats they can't afford, like whoever lead the Solanthi before Greymane.

3 hours ago, jajagappa said:

This is probably the key item, isn't it?  Iron for the wars...  But that's something the elves (and trolls) are not going to want to see pass through.  That alone would likely encourage the elves to work on suppressing the trade route.

If we assume he wants the Seshnelan iron, then Handra is a good stopping point (and adds other goods from Ralios). 

It's got the added benefit of being largely beyond the reach of the elves.

Yeah, while the Guide says iron is a major good on the Manirian Road, it would be so much easier to sail to Seshnela, and the Elves are definitely part of why.

1 hour ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

For organization of trade-based cities, it might be worth looking up stuff like the Cinque Ports of England (and their increasingly arcane government forms), the Hans League (although I realize both of these examples are maritime) and of course stuff like the Arab trading towns and the Silk Road cities (although I know less about these). 

 

I think the clue is that unification attempts would be less warfare and conquest-based, and more something like personal unions galore, or the rise of one city as a regional hegemon with a network of tributaries beneath it. Possible competing hegemons with interwoven tributaty systems, like in Southeast Asia mandala-style states. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandala_(political_model)). 

Maniria also strike me as a potential place for republicanism to arise and fall (aristocratic, of course). This is a prime place for something like a Magna Carta or other equivalent, a treaty guaranteeing certain rights to traders and aristos/citizens across city-state boundaries, for example (and obviously as fragile as any such treaty is IRL).

This exactly mirrors my thinking, to the point that I'm almost irritated that nobody will believe I had the idea independently  

Honestly, that sounds about right.

EDIT: and thanks for the book suggestion

57 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

I should be doing that too! 

My feeling rhymes with yours that the Princes are probably not the best and brightest. They might have had a golden age once but those days are long gone for most. On the other hand, Hero Wars may get a few to rise to the occasion and recollect themselves. I was gonna make a Kojeve joke somewhere to go with the Habermas, maybe it's in here somewhere.

EDIT TO ADD VALUE: What's interesting is that once Belintar gets the boats working again the first voyage goes west to seed ports in that direction. He doesn't send a mission to Kralorela until well after Handra is happy. This tells me that (options)

1. The stuff he wanted most was in Handra's direction . . . maybe he preferred their tea.

2. It was intelligence he really craved and the mercantile applications were a nice side bonus.

3. Circumventing the Princes would destabilize rivals of his court and give his friends (Prax-facing Issaries) time to pivot. 

Yes, clean dishes are important

Sadly, I do not know Kojeve at all.  

And I don't have my thoughts in order about what happens to the Trader Princes.  The short version: Chaos vs. Helerings vs. Neo-Entrulings vs. Glorantha Socialists. 

As for Dormal, I could believe any of those options.

Ok, back

Regarding trade, according to the Guide, the Manirian Road was primary about luxury items, so I suspect that it was very vulnerable disruption on either end.  So, I suspect the Trader Princes have risen and fell several times.  So, the boom times were great, and then things go bad for a while. 

As far as pressures limiting the population, even before the Godlearners started mucking around, Maniria never seemed to easily support a large population.  The parts that did (The Wenelian Penninsula and the Slontos Coast)  are now underwater.  Scott is 100% right that there are probably a lot of pacts about clearing land, especially around Sweet Valley, Tall Castle, and all of Bastis.  It makes complete sense that the Elves (and the Prlalori by extension) extended their power in Maniria after Slontos sank.  Regarding the Goddess Switch, something I kind of like is that the Manirians are caught in a double bind: the Elves can "heal the land," but doing so means it is a forest and not suited for agriculture.

I did the math.  Both Maniria and Esrolia have roughly 10% of their human population in urban centers, so I can't really argue that there's a cultural difference in how much they prefer cities.  There's just fewer people.

Scott posted while I was posting... will think while I clean dishes and be bac klater

I also think that the Trader Princes are poor heirs to their founder, as they seem more defined by profit than peace through communication, change through equal exchange, so I suspect I'm going to eventually have fun filling in the timeline from 1170 (Castelein arrives in Rhigos) to 1580 (Dormal arrives in Handra).  Humans being humans, there was at least one attempt to unify the Trader Princes in that time.

Yeah, Goddess Switch plus Trickster college.  Hard to make thriving cities when there's a limit to agriculture combined with magical forces that discourage order.

yep... something I didn't write but thought of was how east-west trade is being replaced (at least in western Maniria) by North-South trade.

Sorry - white are trade routes that are not considered "The Manirian Road," the trade networks controlled by the various Trader families and cities.  So, trade controlled by Handra, the Volcanic Tribes of south east Maniria, sea trade, etc.

As for size, you're of course correct that Maniria is much smaller than, say, central Asia.  It's just that, even for Glorantha, it seems a bit off to talk about a trade route that was wildly profitable* for the elites who controlled it for 400 years, yet their cities never get larger than 5K, and the average size of a Trader Prince city is about 2,700 people.

* Until that jerk Dormal came along...

No substantive posts for a few days, but out of curiosity, I tied to put the trade routes into the map, circa 1420.

A few notes:

• I don't believe this was the exact route Castelain made, but its close
• Greymane is following the Manirian Road into Esrollia. 
  • He's the Anti-Castelain, and I'll need to contemplate the mythological consequences of that
• It has been adjusted by the Opening slightly as Fay Jee became more important
• I don't think the Trader Princes and Castelein's religion are particularly influential in the West Hills, as there are no mention of Trader Princes being from there.
• If Handra was expansionist, it'd want to take over Highwater
• There is a WHOLE lot to unpack about the Fort Digger to Gemborg trade, as we know the trade route exists, but no more info.
• I'm not entirely sure the "Modern" Manirian Road does much of anything with Trolls, other than avoid them and pay them off.
• Ramalia and Kaxtorplose are both pretty inward-focused, but they have to be part of the trade network somehow.
• This isn't about that map, but wow the Trader Prince cities are TINY the Trader Prince cities are.  The Silk Road cities were much larger, and I would imagine more population (not just culture) would immigrate from both Ralios & Esrolia.

Just now, Richard S. said:

This brings up another question I've been wondering: where are the mines? Maybe it's talked about in the guide and I just missed it, but where does all the metal come from and who mines it?

It's not talked about much... 

A quick-ish text search... here are the mentions of mines, mine, miner, miners, and mining in both volumes of the Guide not related to Mostali:

• Fronela
  • Copper Mine Valley
  • Enneserah 
• Kralorela
  • Saresangk
• Maniria
  • Saltcastle (salt only)
  • Thanor (Now Sunk)
• Peloria
  • Brass Mountains (implied?)
• Prax
  • Troll Mine
• Ralios
  • Lartuli
• East Isles
  • Yevannava
• Fonrit
  • Salonmanad
• Jolar
  • The Exigers
• Umathela
  • Nemb Hills
  • Silubra Mountains

1 hour ago, Leingod said:

Asrelia is the keeper of the Earth's wealth, so miners and quarrymen would definitely be propiating her at the very least. Maran Gor, similarly, would need to be paid her due to keep tunnels from collapsing and the like.

Additionally, the Guide to Glorantha says that Stone was one of the casualties of High King Elf when he wielded Death against the World Machine, and the Heortlings often think of Mostal as the God of Stone. Depending on how much contact with dwarves exists in a given place, you might see human miners and other stone-workers use dwarven techniques rather than normal theistic worship of some miner-god (and outsiders would probably think they were just worshipers of Mostal in the same way a redsmith is a worshiper of Gustbran). Certainly I wouldn't be surprised to see that was the case in Sartar, where the House of Sartar learned a lot of techniques about building things from the dwarves before relations soured.

There's some mention of mining gods in the Fronela Chapter of the Guide.

Copper Man Valley has a collection of mining earth goddesses, and Enneserah worships Ganestos as a god of miners who stole from the Mostali.

(Also, the idea that Ganestos is worshipped FAR AWAY from Spol is absurdly fascinating to me, and worthy of another thread).

I'm now dreaming of a form-fillable version of some kind.

I'm also assuming 1st Age Weartagi look more human than the Weartagi of the 3rd Age Hero Wars.  Sailing around the underworld for a few generations may do something.

9 hours ago, Tindalos said:

Agreed to both.

But of course, with cult specific examples, there's the nice benefit of the mythology involved.

As examples, you could mention "what [my god] did."

Yup.  And through that, the same Rune could be very different depending on the god.

Lhankor Mhy and Yelmalio both have the truth rune, Mastakos and Issaries both have the movement rune, but what I'd let an initiate of LM or Mastakos have as a breakout ability would be a qualitatively different list than what I'd let an initiate of Yelmalio or Issaries do.

Why do you ask / where is it from?

Just now, lordabdul said:

If you don't totally feel like the forum is the right place, you can use the "Blogs" section of the forum, too. Other people have been using that to post actual plays. This has the advantage that each session's report is a separate blog post with its comments underneaths: basically one thread per session report, but tucked neatly in your own little corner.

But otherwise, one thread per adventure works fine too! Either way, I enjoy reading your group's games, so keep it up!

Thanks!  I like their antics too

ok!  The actual play updates will continue, and I reserve the right to ask for help when I get stuck.

Just re-read the Manirian Chapter in the Guide, and I'm irritated I missed something:

Apparently, the second but unlabelled mountain on this map is Troll Mountain: "A small tribe of trolls inhabit this mountain, a gift from Arkat to his allies. Despite their small numbers, the trolls here are particularly fierce and are known to be aided by sorcerers of the Kingtroll cult." (P. 362)

Now... this raises a ton of questions, like when did Arkat give them the mountain?  After Kaxtorplose was saved but while he was an Orlanthi?  Or after he had left Maniria completely but was now a Troll?  My understanding is that Stygia never reached into Maniria, so it had to be during the Gbaji Wars.

But either way, now we now when the Uz showed up, give or take a few decades.  It doesn't answer whether what condition the mountain was in, though it tweake my previous list:

• It was already Ice Peak, and maybe that's why the Uz wanted it.
• It wasn't Ice Peak, but the Uz turned it into Ice Peak to make it more hospitable to trolllife
• It wasn't Ice Peak, and the Godlearners turned it into Ice Peak to try and kill off the Uz, but SCREW YOU UZ KEEP LIVING

All of those are plausible, honestly.

To avoid spamming the board, I'm going to keep all my actual play posts in a single thread per scenario, rather than 1 per session.  Also... is this a worthwhile thing to post, or are actual play threads not really a thing here?  I don't want to be "that guy" who constantly puts threads on a forum that are meh or not really what the forum is for.

Anyways, the intro scenario, a murder mystery on a caravan, ended with the players fully invested in their characters, which is awesome.  Now the PCs are heading to Selgos.  Lady Featherjoy is a noble of Selgos owes them favours for "saving her" from joining a cacodemon cult, and they intend to extract those favours from her to improve the caravan's business.  Additionally, Dara possesses a strange magic item that she wishes to research more: an intelligent, musical axe that feeds off the psychic energy of crowds.  She hopes one of the temples in Selgos has some information.  Here is a quick "community sheet" for the caravan:

Selgos, meanwhile, is going to be an awesome viper pit despite its small size (about 2,000 people).  Here are some things I'm planning on simmering there:

• The year is 1623, and emissaries of Greymane are in the city trying to recruit Nimistori and mercenaries for their next glorious campaign into Esrolia.
  • the PC Kullen, now a healer, is a disgraced Ditali warrior labelled as a coward and cursed for refusing to kill a fire priestess in Thonble on his first raid.
• The Cacodemon Cult is still active in Selgos.  The Ogres are working toward trying to unleash a summoned cacodemon in the city.
  • Featherjoy's family, is also in trouble.  They turned to the cacodemon cult because they were getting pushed out of the market by another family (who maybe were also in league with the Ogres.  Will the PCs try to save her family, or let them fall and spend their effort elsewhere?
• King Volusus of Jaraz plots to centralize his power over the Nimistori, and dreams of annexing Fay Jee and taking over Handra's sea trade
• <<Something Something 52 Tombs of Castelein Something>>

The main thing I need to decide by Wednesday is a "bang" (to use Ron Edwards' terminology) that the players need to react to.  I think it's something like, "The PCs arrive at the Featherjoy estate the same time as Greymane's recruiters, who are renting the place for their recruitment drive."  The PCs will then be forced to decide if they're ok with Featherjoy getting in bed with the Solanthi.

On 5/21/2020 at 12:00 AM, lordabdul said:

Gaaaah I'm twice blind and stupid!  Thanks in quadruple!  I shall hide away in shame.  Apparently I'm not clever or literate enough to play HQ.

I truly sympathize with this.

7 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Yes, I do have it, and you guess correctly as to why it does not list rewards.

It is not posted anywhere currently as it's likely something I will want to bring forward in another format (e.g. Jonstown Compendium).

I will message you separately.

I look forward to that