Nevermet

5 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

Your players have to go there and report back!!

Ha!

I'm currently just a player in a game that is still in prep, and all of this started as me trying to make sense of the Spolite point of view.

However now... well, now I fear I will be compelled to run something somewhere in the Western Reaches in the near future...

19 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

what's the motivation?

the problem with ogres is that they are are insular. they breed incestuously, they prey on travelers so as not to attract notice, and they don't endanger themselves with exposure or pilgrimage or the like. they also exist as an internal cult: a strongly hierarchical internal society with absolute control. an ogre who travels to another ogre's enclave will just get eaten (or enslaved).

you'd need to think of a really good motivation for why an ogre was on the move... maybe their family was exposed, Little House on the Prairie-style?*

*if you don't know about this, IRL a hotel near Laura Ingall's father's house was discovered to have been cannibalising its clients - the Bloody Benders

Yeah, I would need a good motive, and the one you suggested would be a good one.

Part of what makes a good mystery is that motivations are obscure, either because everyone has a motive, or because it doesn't seem to make sense.

"Why are the ogres risking detection?" is a good element that should worry the PCs greatly.

18 hours ago, davecake said:

I agree. Perhaps it staves off Death - but does not actually cure the injury? 

‘Death based healing’ might a temporary thing, but works against causes of death besides injury - poison, for example. It lasts only as long as the spells Duration - which might give you weeks, or months, to find a true cure. Sounds a fun role playing concept.

I think they might attain immortality by summoning the spirit of their own Death, and commanding it to leave them alone. Of course if the spell fails (and it may have weird requirements) Death comes calling. 

They may even be able to do the classic folklore ‘remove the heart and put it in a box, and be unkillable until it is destroyed’ trick. 

I really like the idea of removing death being an independent question to whether or not someone has life.

This actually makes me think of Natha's Well, which is apparently a gigantic bog controlled by spirits that demand human sacrifice.  If they are exceedingly pleased, they "sometimes send
them out of the bog with blessed companions who live as saints in Hagu." (E, P. 86).  I'm now picturing holy and sentient undead bog bodies guarded by sorcerous essences & ghosts wandering around Northern Pelanda, as agents of Nathic balance.  I find this image rather terrifying.

BTW, Natha's Well is .... worthy of more content.  A bog, controlled by spirits, where the Earth was "penetrated" by either Lodril or Ghelotralas, that continues to be an active gate to the underworld.

20 hours ago, Joerg said:

This is the Glorantha forum. Where else would you discuss this (outside of a personal blog)?

Point.

I guess I was feeling self-conscious.

12 minutes ago, soltakss said:

The great thing about ogres is that they are really careful about what they do, until they get near a Cacodemon shrine, in which case they revert to type and can carry out their deeds in the open. If the PCs fail to uncover the killer, you could always have them come near such a shrine and have the killer make a simple mistake.

I would LOVE to run or play this game, but alas my only outlet for glorantha gaming at the moment is PbP, and that is not the right medium for a murder mystery IMHO

Perhaps they were some of the Vingkotlings who were victims of Seravus the Enchanter who stole all their animals?  

I realize this story isn't from the Greater Darkness, but I've always suspected there is a bigger version of it out there than the version told by Heortlings.  It also felt like something that happened farther North than the Maniria, IIRC (I haven't looked at my Manirian notes in a while though, so I forget why).

thanks

Now I want to run a Gloranthan murder mystery where there is an ogre killing people off in a caravan on the Manirian Road, and the PCs need to uncover the chaotic murderer before they're all doomed.

Finally, I have 2 questions:

• Where can I find information on vampires in Glorantha in published materials?  It's getting to the point I need to engage that, I think.
• Where can I find information on Carmania? 
  • For this project, I have and have read the Entekosiad, the Guide to Glorantha, Intro to the Hero Wars, and both Imperial Lunar Handbooks.  I also have the Fortunate Succession and the Glorious ReAscent, but I need to get into them a bit deeper.

When we get done with this thead, I have a list of other Pelandan threads I want to start:

• Yargan and the Blues
  • This will be a MESS, but I feel it'll eventually be necessary, even if it's just to establish what's going on IMG rather than absolute truth.
• The Once and Future Elves of Pelanda.
  • Elves, underworld, Karresh, Skyburn, reforestation in the 1st age, reforestation of the Hero Wars.  WEEEE!
• Gray Age & First Age Pelanda under the Lendarshi
  • This may be folded into the Elven thread, or the Spolite Empire thread.
• A more detailed attempt at the history of the Spolite Empire
  • This comes necessarily after the other two

Also, um, just to be sure... is this the right forum for this?  Or am I navelgazing and ranting about my glorantha too much?

There is so much great stuff here.

This thread is only making me more obsessed with the mythology & religion of Pelanda, Spol, & Carmania, a fact that I both thank and curse you all for 😜

So, regarding my notes on Spol & Spolitism...

• Historical development of Spol & Spolitism
  • This goes beyond this thread, but I like the idea of Subere & Xentha being added to the worship of Gerra, Natha, Velortina, Vogestes, & GanEstoro.
• Xiola Umbar & Umbarism
  • I've been convinced that Azerlo is Ty Kora Tek / Annara Gor, though I really wish I could equate her with XU, but unless I'm willing to claim XU is also Ty Kora Tek, I don't think I can do that, and I doubt I can get away with that.
  • I re-read the ENtekosiad piece about KataMoripi.  There's nothing about her being particularly helpful or compassionate.  She's the ghost of Dendara, a haunting reminder of fallen virtue, and she is horrible to behold.  Her children are "corpse-like" and include Annilla / Veldara / Vendara.
    • As a side note, Spolitism is a rejection of the Jernotian Way, with its understanding of balance and virtue.  If it exists, a Daxdarian religious tradition would also reject the Jernotian Way, and as I currently think about things, also not get along with Spolitism.  But that's for another thread.  This occurred to me because the Apotheosis of Daxdarius is interwoven with the fall of the House of Virtue.
  • So, without a good way to explain a common worship, I am left to agree that its probably a linguistic association rather than a deity: Spolitism is called Umbraism because it offers liberation in darkness
• Sorcery
  • I'm intrigued at the idea of sorcerers using death rune spells to heal people by "removing" death, and how that would look and feel compared to someone using, say, harmony or life.  It kind of reminds me of Pet Cemetery, actually.
  • I agree that darkness sorcery likely was around pre-dawn

3 hours ago, MOB said:

Her children are described in The Guide to Glorantha, and are all adults (all born long before 1621). 

Even though Nick's story makes clear Yolanela is of somewhat advanced years, she definitely wants another child. My companion story to Nick's, The Son of Light Awakens, discusses that further (it is all about the reason why the envoy in Nick's story is sent with the message from Glamor he gives). Sadly, that tale seems to be missing from the archive where my old website is now housed.

Sheng Seleris.

I know that Argrath brings Sheng Seleris back, but I'm confused how the geography means he's from the North, rather than, say, the East.

Also, um.... my responses were excessive.

Sorry

On 9/1/2019 at 11:12 PM, MOB said:

Make sure you read this story by @Nick Brooke!: http://rpgreview.net/mob/yolanelaspurned.htm

Now THATs fun.  I have a few things I'm now wondering about

First, are the children she mentions children that have already been born by 1621 (the time of the Guide to Glorantha)?  If so, I assume that would be Saranko, the High Priest of Invisible
Orlanth, and/or Alehandro of the Brass Arm, Satrap of Spol.  If not, the we're talking about new children.  Either way is interesting.

Second, who in the North?  An Eolian hero? I can imagine Yolanela being interested in Door Stones.  Or perhaps a Char-Un Kahn?  I assume that the Char-Un and Spolites don't really get along, but I'm sure she could look past that in the name of power.

Illumination

A few people talked about this, but here's my take.

IMG, the illumination offered by Spolitism was based on a transcending of the opposition of life & death.  In doing so, it drew from the experiences of Gerra and Vogestes.  Vogestes taught sacrifice and hunting and worshipping death and was "inspired".  Gerra is an extremely undeveloped character who somehow was regenerated after allowing herself to be tortured, impaled, and annihilated by demons.  From inside their religion, Spolitism isn't about balance as much as a certain version of DerMaElsor that is defined as uniting life and death.  Natha has a role in that, but the beginning of this path is rather different than Jernotian balance.

I also agree with Davidcake that Black Sun Worship seems to have developed separately.  That said, I do find some things intriguing.  Specifically, the idea that human sacrifice is necessary to maintain reality.  I read the entry in the Guide about the Black Sun, but I don't know enough to really say more than this.

Regarding Darkness Goddesses and Umbarism

Regarding Netta/Xentha and Subere, I see the Spolites as directly connected to Velortina of Hagu, and as such, I view Spolitism as having a pretty maleable list of gods at any given point in time, even more than others.  So, after its established that Spolitism is about darkness and the underworld, they probably grabbed any divinity they could that fit that mission, and started editing out gods that didn't fit well.  (On another issue, I;d imagine that Spolites have a very complicated relationship with Humakt)

So, yes, I completely agree that modern Spolitism has a place for Xentha, Xiola Umbar, and Subere.  I'm tempted to equate Xentha with KataMoripi the Dead Sky, but I suspect that won't work in the end.

As for Azerlo, I equated Azerlo with Xiola Umbar because I wanted to find a Pelandan darkness goddess of compassion, as this is the brief description of Xiola Umbar and I was trying to figure out where the term "Umbarism" comes from.  Azerlo was the closest I could find in The Entekosiad.  That being said, she's not a great fit for a few reasons, as people have pointed out.

If I was wrong about this association, and it looks like I was, then I'm still left without a clear explanation of why Spolitism is called "Umbarism" in Dara Happa, given that Xiola Umbar is not a name in either Pelanda or Dara Happa. I hate to blame the Uz, but I don't feel like I have a better answer.  (New Umbarism and My Good Old Shadow are other headaches I'll worry about later).  Given that Umbarism shows up immediately after the fall of Nysalor, I'd imagine that Arkati Uz and Spolitism filled a power vacuum and were blended in various ways.

Of the suggestions, I lean toward thinking Azerlo is Annara Gor.  She's ugly, and rules part of the underworld.  It would also then work that Vaskerele, Son of Turos and current regent of Hell, would also be Deshlotralas.  Mother and son ruling the underworld as Turos parties it up and Derdromus is pouting and scary people.

26 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Hm... the primeval tree canopy absorbs the light, making the underbrush dark and shadowy.... Too literal thinking, or extended allegory?

(Greater Darkness notwithstanding)

That could work.

And also, frankly, I can imagine a gruesome symbiosis between humans and Talargs during the Bleak Times, when the world is breaking and survival is near impossible:

Humans sacrifice themselves to the Elves, allowing the forests to grow.  In exchange, Elves allow humans to feast upon the fruits of the woods, allowing humans to be fed.  It's a twisted sort of reciprocal cannibalism.

Regarding Sorcery & Necromancy

On 9/1/2019 at 11:00 PM, davecake said:

Also, a modern (definitely Carmanian, rather than Pelandan) Darkness based sorcery tradition, focused on summoning underworld beings, including necromancy. Which of course has suspicious links with vampiric sorcerous traditions. 

I completely agree that there is darkness sorcery in Carmania.

Also, could someone confirm for me that necromancy is defined as sorcery focused on the underworld? I honestly cannot remember if I made that up in my head, or if that's an actual definition for Glorantha.

In either case, reading the Entekosiad, I would argue that there is a case to be made for pre-dawn sorcery in Wendaria / Pelanda from several sources:

1. Yargan.  It can be debated how sorcerous Yargan was personally, but he clearly had sorcerous minions, and it appears Yargan had associations with both water and death (and therefore the underworld).
    
2. Gurgo.  Gurgo is a a sorcerer who helped Daxdarius force his way into the High Gods.  To me, this sounds like anti-theist sorcery.  Additionally, this story feels thematically similar to Velortina developing a set of rites that allows humans to break connections to a god with no negative consequences.  The ideas that mortals get to boss gods around does not really feel like Storm or Sun Tribe myths to me, and they feel rather sorcerous in attitude.
    
3. Third Eye Blue Tribe.  Sorcerous metalworkers in the Brass mountains.  Trying to smooth out the continuity for this as they appear in the Entekosiad and the Guide to Glorantha will be a nightmare, and I'm not up to the challenge right now.  Suffice to say: sorcerous metal-working based on Mostali knowledge.
    
4. Idovanus.  This one is very tenuous.  However, I think one could make the case for communication-based sorcery being associated with Idovanus, whose name literally means the bearer of speech.

The reason why I wanted to go through that list is that there is no pre-Dawn tradition of darkness sorcery, and darkness only seems to be expressed explicitly in terms of the underworld.

So where does darkness sorcery come from?  My best guesses are the fight against Nysalor lead to it being invented locally, and Carmanians as you said.  I increasingly like the idea of vampires being involved in the Spolite Empire

Regarding Talargs / Elves

On 9/2/2019 at 6:56 AM, Byll said:

This is a really interesting viewpoint on Northern Pelanda. I've been meaning for some time to do something based around the unusual local rules-of-engagement in Human-Tararg waves of afforestation and deforestation where there seem to be well defined refuge areas in which 'defeated' enemies are allowed to congregate under relatively benign oversight of the victors. Much to chew over. The Pyramid of Derdromus at Karresh and it's underworld connection is probably relevant to your 'Greater Spol' cultural area.

Yeah, I really need to make more sense of pre-Spol Pelanda, the Lendarshis, and the Talargs of Greenwood.  The info from the Guide and the maps in the Fortunate Succession suggest conflicts, and I like your idea of refuges.  I also like the idea that not all the humans supported the Lendarshi.

And as you point out, a lot of this comes to a head at Karresh, which is where a Spolite Emperor was born, has Elves and humans living near one another peacefully with one another since God Time.  The apparently stable relationship between underworld worship, elves, and the Spolites is very, very striking to me.

I am very curious what happens in Northern Pelanda during the Reforestation of the Hero Wars.

On 9/2/2019 at 1:51 AM, Crel said:

As a neophyte, relatively speaking, I'm really enjoying what I see as I skim through your writeup. One of my challenges when venturing out of Dragon Pass/Prax is that the cultures overlap and tangle atop one another really quickly, and I start to feel lost in the distinctions. (In particular, I feel this increases the farther north I wander.) In contrast, your writeup feels concise and consequentially more engaging. I really like the "What my Maskmaker told me" section. I also like how this writeup interacts with and justifies human sacrifice, describing what Earth humans see as dark and awful in a... well, still somber, but more acceptable and necessary sense.

I could see myself trying to play a Spolite, is what I'm trying to get at. And that's not often my reaction to Gloranthan religion/culture writeups.

Thanks for sharing your work.

Thanks! 

That was my goal, and I'm really happy it was successful for you.  As fun as it is to try to organize the myths or figure out the sociopolitical reality of Glorantha, at the end of the day it is a RPG setting, and therefore one of the purposes of a good setting is to facilitate play.  If a culture makes no sense, that's a problem, especially in Glorantha which feels so anthropologically rich.  The Spolites may be good or evil or something else, but they're human beings, and their culture should make sense.

Labour Day and prepping for the fall semester ate up this week.

I'm going to read through and make comments over teh course of the day.

And again, thank you for the feedback! This is awesome.

Yes.

8 minutes ago, davecake said:

I agree - the ancient traditions of Natha, etc are the roots on which Spolitism draws, but it didn't become a real tradition that combines it all together until post-Dawn. Spolitism also really becomes invigorated by Umbarism as a Darkness oriented variant of Illumination in the late First Age onwards. 

Generally, I think of vampirism as a type of Chaos that began in the West and is mostly sorcerous, though the Nontraya myths of Ernalda might argue otherwise, and I tend to think it either began with Umbarism or came from the interaction of Carmanian Spolitism with the sorcerous tradition brought by Syranthir. But a pre-Time origin with YarGan is also pretty plausible. 

One thing I haven't decided on how and when illumination entered Spolitism.  I can imagine several answers:

1. It is indigenous, coming from Vogestes "The Inspired One," Gerra (a partial source of Lunar illuminating practices), Uleria (who IIRC is illuminated), or Jernotius.
   1. (BTW, I'm amused that within Pelandan myth, one could see is a balance between 2 balancers: Jernotius vs. Natha.)
2. It is from the Arkati Uz of Yolp
   1. Xiola Umbar is not named in the Entekodiad.  I take this to mean that Xiola Umbar is equated with a goddess previously known in Spol. (My current guess is Azerlo)
3. It is repurposed from Nysalor

Of course, these are not mutually exclusive. IMG, a lot of Bleak Period traditions were lost when Lendarsh established hegemony.  These were then rediscovered and reconstructed through interactions with spirits, heroquesting, the Uz, etc.

I missed that completely!

Well, IMG Spolitism strived to transcend the binary between life & death and oppose the sun, so I can see how such a tradition could have either developed from Vampires or became fertile ground for them after the Dawn.

I'm inclined to think they were a post-Dawn addition, but I could see it being argued otherwise, since Hariij was known as The Hungry Ones, Yargan was a cannibal god, and Natha was a drinker of blood.  In general, I think that Spolitism was very much a post-Dawn institution that drew from pre-dawn magics but was not a mere continuation of a previous tradition.

15 minutes ago, Tindalos said:

Ooh interesting. I'm assuming ErtelEnari would be Orogeria, with MemEnari as Lesilla, and I could see a case for SesEnari and Natha (as SesEnari represents the viewpoint of anger) but the others?

I really like the idea of Gerra as Vorgetala... I'll have to add that to my Spolitism info.

The problem with SesEnari as Natha is that Natha is explicity the granddaughter of BaraEnDedi / Addi, as she is the child / union of Nansha & Naquasha.