jeffjerwin

4 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

I'd be careful to compare Saring and Issaries. The "i" in the former is most likely not a part of the sar(i) element, but of the -ing element, as with Old Norse from which it is borrowed. As with Hendrik - Hendriking, Alakor - Alakoring, Arkat - Arkating, and so forth.

? Sar- is the word in Sar-ing, whereas SARL is the word in Esrolia, that is, Sar-el, a diminutive of Sar. Compare Norina and Norinel.

Or do you mean Is-sar-ies?

BTW, after we discussed the Sar- phoneme in Sartar and his parent Ernalsar's name, I kept my eyes open for further repetitions. There are the Sarings in the HotHP, who kept the roads and markets, but were associated with Sorcery and Arkat and were wiped out in a war by the Hendriki king in the 400s; there the name seems to contain the same phoneme as in Issaries. There is also the Esrolian Sarl, a name for Orlanth as the good lover (Tol). I think the meaning might be 'going, wandering, path-taking' (the best kind of Esrolian lover doesn't hang around too long, but keeps coming back when he's wanted). So Ernalsar could be Ernalda+Sarl or 'wandering Ernal[da]' - the gender of the parent is still opaque.

So some anonymous 'Queen' of one of the old houses rules Nochet alone, probably not Norinel.

Maybe Bruvala's triumph is somehow connected to the connecting of the Lyksos to the Creekstream and there consequent 'acceptance' of Nochet as the seat of the grandmothers mentioned in the Esrolia book.

This is the period when Nochet's population begins to increase precipitously (in c.1200 it had 20,000 people, and by c.1600 it had 100,000). I can see it also swelling because of the Tarshite Civil War, the troubles in Hendrikiland and Quiviniland, and the Grazer civil war.

Rhigos, ruled by the Delainaeo, is its main rival, and it is the submission of that city that probably allowed Bruvala to claim the moribund title of High Queen - maybe seizing power even from Belintar's official Governor?

I take it that the name of the predecessor of Bruvala, who reigned till 1461, is not named anywhere? (or any other queens from the first half of the 15th century)?

Just wondering: my campaign is in 1450 and will probably swing by Nochet.

3 hours ago, The God Learner said:

I had some thoughts about lightbringers as well, but, as described in Life of Sedenya, what the construct Teelo Estara does is really a replay of, and improvement on, the Godtime of the RG. 

After being rescued by Yanafal Tarnils, the RG is still not finished. (As an aside, it looks like she fails an appalling number of heroquests through her career, actually.) I haven't found the deeper details on the subsequent apotheosis at Castle Blue yet, but they seem to be available in Fortunate Succession and elsewhere. 

Entirely undescribed, to my knowledge, is how the original myth of the RG was stitched together and planted in the Godtime. I don't really like overusing this one myth, but conceivably there is a Lightbringer Quest with a divine resurrection in there. 

 

There are cognate features in the Entekosiad myths, which also involve "failures" and recoveries from those failures. Orlanth also fails a large number of times, but those failures are in the Godtime.

The Red Goddess is a composite of various Moon and planetary deities, all interrelated, and all stretching back to the primeval White Goddess that illuminated the world (and rose and set) before Brightface-Yelm-the Emperor usurped the Sky and Air. The Moon is continually reborn, more or less matrilineally, before she is broken during the Great Darkness. Finally the last remaining sentient moon divine fragment is Ulurda, 'moving blue' - really a small sky-beast spirit (who takes the form of a fox or a mouse) (and possibly Orogeria, the blue huntress who followed Ulurda in the sky)... Ulurda is the immediate predecessor to Teelo Norri, whose body is also inhabited by the other seven parts of the forgotten or minor goddesses as they are found and identified. To 'be' these goddesses means embracing their defeats and even their destruction. But Sedenya the Turner shows how one can be dead and alive at the same time.

The ultimate, 'healed' apotheosis of the Moon would be as the turning cyclical deity called Zaytenera, or the White Moon, who is the Golden Age, daughter of the White Goddess, and who might orbit the Earth alongside her father (Yelm is both her father and her mother's oppressor).

The myth of the Red Goddess is not an artificial construct. It emerges from the history of the Moon goddesses in Peloria, but the 7M did not know all of her details when they began. Certainly they knew of Lesilla/Anhilla, the Blue Moon, and probably of Gerra and Natha.

To walk the paths of the Red Goddess, you must know failure, defeat, and death. Realize you are one of Us!

37 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Opili is a horse folk name - Yarandros and Derik Pol Joni interacted with an Opili nation of horse nomads when Pavis was sealed in.

I would guess that the Opili may have been a branch of lesser Zebra nobility, not as important as the Arrowsmiths, but of similar descent. Refugees at the time of the troll conquest might have made it to kin at Zebra Fort. Depending on when exactly Opili's fort fell to Geras Kag (who seems to have made it his seat of power), some survivors might have joined the Pavis Survivors on the plains of Prax.

And the Opili tribe (same name, not necessarily the same people) were in Garsting and Jarst as a Pentan offshoot vaguely tributary to Sheng Seleris in the Third and Fourth Wanes. So it probably is a meaningful, mythic, identity for horse peoples.

The Entekosiad calls elves Talargs, if you want a 'native' name, though it's Wendarian.

As with Durev, the Wendarians claim they were originally made from trees, and in their case the elves/talargs were created by the trees who stayed rooted as a copy of people. Durev was carved from a tree by the god Orstan the carpenter. Of course, the distinctions between the elder races and humanity was thinner then.

'Tree-people', 'Darkness folk', 'Stone people', etc., could be used pretty universally in a game, I think, also.

7 hours ago, Joerg said:

Apart from Wilms and Geo, we know about the man who became Ostling Four Wolves, the replacement chief (king) for the Telmori tribe. It isn't clear whether that son of Derik Pol Joni who won the riding match against the Feathered Horse Queen's best horse and rider was one of his companions already or whether he became one through this feat.

I doubt that his companions were limited to his clan or even country of origin. In the case of Ostling, a Jajalaring origin has been speculated.

Sartar being a non-martial hero, his companions may have been of a lot less martial background, too.

There's a reference in "Cult of Wilms" in WF 15 I think to many of Sartar's followers being artists and craftsbeings.

Edit: Although Sartar was probably not trailed by any of his Larnsting colleagues, he according to the Glorantha Sourcebook, was also initiated into the secrets of the Puppetteers. Note that he has the Illusion/Art rune in his his sigil (which, out of Glorantha, is also Greg's).

5 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Wilms was probably one (KoS p.110) and helped him found Wilmskirk.  

I don't think Hauberk Jon or Swen Leapfoot were necessarily companions but certainly aided Sartar in raising their cities.  

Otherwise Sartar was of the Orshanti clan of the Hendriki and a Larnsting, but don't think I've seen any other companions named.

OK, Wilms, and Geo... Thanks. And the unnamed Humakti.

And behind every great man is a duck, of course.

I can't recall or locate any besides Geo, and of course the Humakti bodyguards...

I'm probably missing somebody. I'm thinking of his early 'adventuring party' as it were, rather than people that allied with him later on.

Thanks.

3 hours ago, Jeff said:

Of the published cults, Lhankor Mhy - Lord of Knowledge - is most closely associated with alchemy. Although real-world alchemy was often associated with gnosis and personal transformation, Gloranthan alchemy is more like Chinese or Indian alchemy, and largely used to create medicines and potions of various effects.

Tantric Hinduism involves a great deal of mystical alchemy, as does Taoist magic. Of course, like western alchemy there's a lot of sexual symbolism as well (in the case of esoteric tantrism and taoism, indeed there's real sexual practices that are expressed in alchemical terms). So if you're comparing Gloranthan alchemy to East and South Asian alchemy there's a case to be made that it has heady mystic overtones as well.

Note the mixing of the elements, the Burtae, is often expressed as a sexual or consort relationship and 'birth of a child' in Gloranthan theism...

5 hours ago, Joerg said:

Yes, this is a mystical (Outer Realm) hell rather than the land of the dead. And it is obviously one not previously conquered by Sheng during his Kralori-imposed austerities, or it would have been like handing Sheng the key to his cell.

Three places on the Red Goddess' journey come to my mind - her encounter with Gbaji, her Oneness with Blaskarth/the Devil/the (underworld) Ultimate, or the place where she liberated the Bat sent down by Arkat. The Blaskarth encounter is shared with Yanafal Tarnils, which would be well-known to Fazzur, and it makes a suitably awful place to be in.

By extension, it also means that Argrath, in order to return to the Surface World, had to undergo the same experiences as either Yanafal (self-sacrifice in exchange for the Goddess, requiring someone else to undergo the Red Goddess Trial) or the Red Goddess herself (another form of self-sacrifice). I think that Argrath would become the Yanafal to Sheng's Red Goddess in this quest, if that is how Argrath continued the quest..

The problem is that the RG manifested/united with Taraltara after Yanafal Tarnils' intervention. Surely since Sheng is occluded he can't really be "We are All Us" in order to escape? Of course, maybe that is why only Argrath escaped (to my recollection): Sheng was offered the chance to take one person back, and he of course treated the question transactionally.

Tatters of the King might work for you.

It has a fair bit less acute physical danger (or it can be finessed a bit better) than Shadows and Masks. (This is my observation, perhaps grounded more in a reading of it rather than a play through). There's plenty of psychological danger.

Horror on the Orient Express might work as well, but you'd have to supplement the PCs with helpful NPCs, either for a single scenario or for the campaign.

Just now, Manu said:

My player want to be a wood specialist in order to select the best wood for building boats. With all the respect to the Forest and Aldryami needed. Aldrya seems to be the perfect choice...

Orstan the Carpenter is the boatbuilding god, but a lay membership in Aldrya also makes sense. (http://glorantha.wikia.com/wiki/Orstan_the_Carpenter)

17 minutes ago, Manu said:

Is there any 'forest' cult for the humans? I thought that Aldrya with its strong connection to Earth would be human friendly

Dryads (viz. Tarndisi among the Colymar) probably lead human worshippers for grove-based worship, but she is probably assisted by Ernaldans with a lay membership in Aldrya (Ernalda is Aldrya's mother, according to Heortlings). Aldrya's main focus among humans is for forage and for the cutting of dead wood: berry-pickers, charcoal burners and woodcutters... and learning the Elf Greeting so Aldryami don't attack.

Entekos and Doburdun are the odd ones - the Pelorian air gods.

Jeff Richard wrote in 2014: "Dendara/Entekos is an interesting one. She’s not a child of Umath. The Pelandans hold Dendara to be the daughter of Jernotia, who some Carmanian philosophers interestingly identified with Gata, and later Lunar philosophers identified with the mother of Sedenya. Although the Pelandans rarely identify Dendara’s father, some Lunar philosophers speculate that she is a daughter of Gata and Aether, like Sedenya and Umath."

I agree. Entekos is Umath's sister. Doburdun is the thunder god, Entekos' servant (and relative?). Shafelsora is the goddess of rain and also serves her.

Note that Entekos is also entitled 'Mother of Moons' and 'The First Rebel God'. Verithurusa, the White turning Red Moon is perhaps her daughter by Yelm. When the Red Goddess tells Valare Addi that Entekos is not one of her aspects, that may be because is she is her mother, making the Red Moon (in part) Orlanth's first cousin (and Orlanth's aunt - Sedenya).

28 minutes ago, Steve said:

Borni's Landing is said (on p.182 of the Guide) to be near to the EWF ruins of Jeron, and Borni's Landing is shown on the map on p.180. 

That's very helpful: it explains the extent of the 'Wideway' also.

Joerg, are you stating that the children of Sorana Tor grow up like the Rattle-born of the Cinsina? (at perhaps a x4 (sacred Earth number) speed?)

Could they be related to the Earth Twins, or the Sacred Twins?

I wonder if Baroshi also germinates after seven years.

Note that the first Feathered Horse Queen is born c.1430, 'reborn in the Earth' in 1455 and dies in 1535 at the age of 104 or 105! Does the act of mating with the sacred queen also transfer vitality, causing the sacred queens to become ageless? The FHQ bears children in 1496 when she is 69 years old.

It looks to me like Tikal is north of Dwarf Ford near the opening of Snakepipe Hollow. Is Jeron in or around Too Far? It's said to be at the 'north end' of Trader's Valley / Wideway in King of Sartar.

Some time ago Jeff Richard made reference to a canon Stafford map of Second Age Genertela. Is that extant? Will it ever be redrawn for the game? Inquiring minds would like to know...

1 minute ago, jajagappa said:

Lhankor Mhy.

Who is the son or brother of Mostal, the god most closely associated with alchemy... but who is dead.

I wonder if the Lunars from c.1455 might be refugees from Sheng, as much as they are agents of Sylila.

Tarsh and its history in the 1450s is a bit of a mess.

This might be because the Illaro dynasty minimized the history of Blond Arim. Also, the death of Erantha Gor and 'birth' of Eneera Tor seems curiously connected.

These are my crib notes on the subject: 

1430   Spider Wars between Far Point and Cragspider’s trolls.

c.1440                        Birth of Illaro Blacktooth, later king of the Hendarli tribe.

1448               Orios the Fool is killed by the Mad Sultanate. Several candidates for the kingship emerge: the matrilineal candidate [Erantha Gor] offered by the Earth cult, the Prince of Far Point [Tarkalor the Huge] (slain prior to 1458), Jornkalor of Talfort (a Sylilan/Lunar ally), and Blond Arim (from the ‘Lowlands’).

1449               Aldachuring ‘tribe’ founded.

1449-1453    Tarkalor seizes Bagnot, moves into Kodros Island.

1450               The Quivini, led by the Colymar, reject Tarshite dominion.

‘Chaos Flood’ comes from Snakepipe Hollow; steads along the River are destroyed. [WF 15]

Telmori arrive in Tarsh. [WF 15]

Tarkalor the Huge raids the Oslir valley into Holay. [WF 15]

1455               Blond Arim kills Erantha Gor using all-women troops and besieges Maranaba [the Shaker Temple] with the help of Lunar magicians. Blond Arim becomes king of all Tarsh (save the Far Point [and Kero Fin?]).

            Eneera Tor emerges from the womb of the Goddess. Illaro Blacktooth becomes ‘prince of the Kerofini’ and leads their faction to victory in the Civil War (by c.1470).

A new incarnation of Sorana Tor manifests to turn back the Lunars.

The Telmori pour through the Trader’s Valley en route to Quiviniland.

1458               Jornkalor was captured at Talfort by a Sylilan/Lunar invasion. Blond Arim was ‘killed by treason’, Tovtarsar ‘Gaptooth’ of Alda-Chur attempted to conquer Tarsh but was defeated.

Northern Tarsh revolted against the Sylila but Fllichet was annexed by the Empire [?].

The Alda-Churi submit to Illaro and join his invasion of the Quivini. Fall of Dangerford and destruction of the Ferfal Alliance. The Dondalf Flats are seized for the Alda-churi by Tarsh.

1459   Holay, including Filichet, becomes a Lunar province.

1470   Eneera Tor is courted by Temernim of Dunstop; that same year Tastinim, son of Illaro, becomes king of Tarsh. Sartar, a student of the Puppeteers and a Larnsting, enters Dragon Pass from around Whitewall.

Mythically, how do mongoose cultists deal with the serpentine associations of the Earth cults?

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

What exactly are the feeding habits of the Gloranthan vampires that would make up a vampire "legion"?

Do they still have a full stable of human Vivamort initiates spending their existence to feed their vampire masters in the hope of joining their ranks?

The effects of the Vivamort touch in RQ2 was downright humane - you would lose temporary POW (aka magic points)  and when drained to 3 MP or less, the knowledge of the latest rune spell you sacrificed for would be transferred to the vampire, in RQG speak along with the rune points to cast it if divine, and some general hit points when donating blood. Ok, so you had to provide a victim from among your kin - I wonder whether nasty in-laws count...

I don't have the RQG bestiary yet (need to wait for christmas...), which means I haven't seen the RQG treatment of vampires and sorcery yet.

 

It's roughly similar - the rune spell stuff is gone - Vampires and their like no longer have POW, though they have some means of getting Vivamorti Rune Spells. So it is possible to 'responsibly' keep a community of human thralls to drain for magic points, without killing them. Neither Rathorelans nor Char-Un seem like pliant subject peoples. In TotRM 19 it was implied they took slave tribute from the Lunar Empire (probably in Spol) in exchange for their service.

At least one Carmanian Shah (Ammas the Black, r. 834-873) associated with Spol was allied with 'inhuman' allies in the Grey Mountains. He was deposed...

1 minute ago, metcalph said:

The location has not been specified canonically.  I've read that the mountains concerned are the Grey Mountains (which places them a bit far from any human food)

Huh. Yes, that would be difficult for them. Though perhaps they keep a population of thralls on hand.