jeffjerwin

Two notes from History of the Heortling People's map:

1. 'Itendi' appears just north of Too Far.

2. "Hola's Hills" is the name of the hills where it is situated.

On the wintering issue: most DP scenarios would take place during the summer (not during planting or harvesting). Hence the winter quarters could be somewhere else entirely, possibly in the two spots omitted from the DP rules but found in the earlier WBRM: Furthest and Boldhome.

11 minutes ago, Darius West said:

Isn't it interesting that the Puppeteer Troupe isn't mentioned at all in relation to Too Far in the DPG?  I would also point out that it is the only Puppeteer location that is not a ruin... but can we be certain about that?  Too Far certainly has a bad location.  It is on the warpath for the Sartarites and the Lunars, Cragspider and her trolls, wandering giants, chaos, tusk riders, Stinking forest Elves, and probably Dwarves too.  I haven't read how much settlement there is in the Creek Valley, but it seems like a dangerous prospect.

You're right - there probably ought to be a ruin there. It makes sense for everything going by way of the Trader Valley/Greatway.

Also it would have been fortified against Arkat by the Bright Empire. It was also a boundary between the various polities ruling the Pass and the Aramites... so presumably somewhere in the vicinity are the remains of one or more fortresses. But perhaps they only survive in a much less prominent form than the other sites, or are 'underneath' Too Far. 

26 minutes ago, EricW said:

Remember the Lunars believe they can control chaos - they likely believe the risk of accidentally destroying Glorantha can be managed, through careful planning and meticulous mystical research and engineering.

Arachne Solara managed it, after all.

On the name, in Tarsh in Flames, it is suggested that 'Bagnot' (meaning 'short stop here') was named by Arim the Pauper. As he did explore the region, 'Too Far' would seemingly be his own observation. Perhaps he encountered an enemy, or possibly trolls who warned him about Snake Pipe Hollow.

46 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Well there's the name itself.  Why is it "Too Far"?  And for whom was it "Too Far"?  

Well, in Real Life, of course, Tarsh is littered with such names: "Furthest", "Dunstop" (Don't Stop), etc.

One might also imagine a connection to Arim's explorations: he certainly spent some time in the area.

Or perhaps it references the Stinking Forest or Ginijji: a place just a bit "Too Far" from safety and culture.

Note that it's within the Glowline in the GoG but not within it in the boardgame, suggesting the line may cut through the town.

Whatever the Puppeteers do there, it's probably pre-Glowline (c.1500 or so) given nearly all their other musters are demonstratively connected to EWF Ruins (except for the random hex in the middle of the Stinking Forest).

Correctly posting this in Glorantha...

I'm gathering notes for my Puppeteers campaign. In the DP/WBRM boardgames, they may be found at a number of ruins and sites in Kerofinela. Some are rather dangerous places, interestingly. But one is the stockade at Too Far, on the very rim of Lunar Tarsh.

Why?

I'm try to work this out. It appears to be in Pomini territory in Tarsh in Flames, which may be relevant - that tribe is supposedly rather creative. (I think the Slavewall tribe is less likely)

There are also a number of dinosaur and dragonewt connections - a dragonewt road passes through the site.

Arkat may have fought a battle here in 436. The EWF had a watch post at Top Ear nearby according to the Gazetteer.

It's been a part of Tarsh since at least the 1400s, based on the maps in the Sourcebook.

Anything I'm missing, or that you want to suggest from your own fervid imaginations?

oops

52 minutes ago, Darius West said:

LOL are you insinuating that those Donandar cultists are all illuminates?  No wonder the Uroxi never sense chaos at their productions!  Kill them all, Arkat will know his own.

They are Illuminated (or at least their leadership is), but I doubt they call themselves that. Sartar was one of them, along with a Larnsting, so you may want to hold your axe...

It's your call, but the Puppeteers are more in the service of Disorder than Chaos, the Uroxi may find them impossible to lay hands on. Too similar to themselves. They are also friends with Kyger Litor... and she doesn't have much truck with Chaos.

22 hours ago, soltakss said:

Who says you can't bring something back from a HeroQuest without preparing it in advance?

The Red Goddess brought back the Crimson Bat, which seemed to be a surprise to everyone, including her.

If you want to slavishly stick to that rule, and I would strongly suggest that you don't, the Hunters could prepare a talisman of a beast, or even a blank talisman, and use that as the prepared object.

But, the whole point of the Great Hunt is to bring back something spectacular, so everyone is capable and prepared to do so.

Another example is the bringing back of the Aurochs to Dragon Pass. Hasn't happened yet, but it will.

8 hours ago, Joerg said:

Neither village sits directly on the lake, IMO. The Enjossi main village is on the upper Stream and may be just "Enjossi Fort", "Salmon Weir" or something similar. The Richvale village on the Chorms River should really be part of the Balmyr tribe rather than the Locaem, or possibly both, but that complaint of mine has been ignored for too long to be effective.

By gum, you're right! All the regional tribal maps show the area as Balmyr lands. Perhaps something changed between 1621 and 1625, though?

1 hour ago, jajagappa said:

I believe there are any number of forms, Nysalor Illumination and Draconic mysticism being two examples.  But its the game mechanism that functions similarly as all of these are routes to free consciousness from the illusionary shackles of the world.

Interestingly, the Puppeteers have a method that's seemingly rooted in the Illusion rune itself. I suppose sufficient mastery of Illusion 'proves' that all existence or consciousness is illusion as well.

Edit: Go to too many puppet and prestidigitation shows and *you too* will become an illuminate!

20 hours ago, TrippyHippy said:

I prefer the title Myrmidon, personally, as it is congruous to a series of related games: Pendragon, Paladin, Mymidon, Samurai, etc. 

I wonder if the mooted Book of Magic, for magicians set in Pendragon's setting, will be a stand-alone game or a direct supplement? 

 

I agree. Myrmidon is a better and more mellifluous name.

I noticed that the Theyalan name of the Bullflood is Uxeler, i.e., Urox-heler, which implies that Heler/Eler is a Theyalan common noun meaning flood as well as the name of a god... This may be of some significance for the interpretation the Heortlings have of the event and a proper response to it.

4 hours ago, Joerg said:

Larnstings are mystics (though not conventional Nysalorean illuminates) and/or heroquesters, and these change feats are a consequence of their weird mystical/hero-power. They appear and disappear in history, apparently appear through inspiration, and disappear when no longer needed. (The powers appear and disappear, not necessarily the wielders of these powers, who live out their lives to whichever end they reach.)

They appear to have a mobility requirement, being physically unable to remain in one place for long (I wonder what weird Mostali tricks Sartar had included in the Royal Palace so that he could spend time in there on the move without leaving Boldhome).

Hendrik of the former Garanvuli appears to have been the first person inspired in the Larnsting ways, and he uses that to spread liberty to his folk hiding in the forests of eastern Kethaela, never being conquered by the Bright Empire. His tribe, the Hendriki, start out as at best semi-sedentary farmers moving from plot to plot, probably part of his magic to keep them hidden.

Hendrik's successors moderate the consequences of the Gbaji Wars for about a century, then the Larnsting powers disappear. Aventus for instance creates the foreigner laws which define the royal tribute in addition to the shadow tribute that goes to the Kingdom of Night.

There appears to be some conflict between the heirs of Arkat's powers and the Larnstings, but the brunt of that conflict is with the Kerofinelan tribes. By the time of the Tax Slaughter the Larnstings have disappeared, and they don't have much of a hand in the shaping of Orlanthland and later the EWF.

The spirit of liberty that makes Kethaelan Heortland such an indomitable and often unruly place is finally chained by Belintar, but that appears to release the Larnsting powers anew. It is possible that Belintar did this knowingly, and that his altered Andrin (and his successors) may have had some access to the Larnsting ways, but at the same time some old style Larnstings appeared (possibly from the ranks of Belintar's or his governors' henchmen), and among these Sartar, the only known Larnsting to have been able to leave Hendrikiland.

Sartar has at least two powerful transmutations among his feats - assassins to termites (which then get eaten by woodpeckers), and a powerful curse into a calm breeze carrying a sweet song. Making his presumably Jajalaring associate Ostling into a four-wolf Telmori chief is another such feat, but this was a lot less public magic.

None of Sartar's heirs inherited this Larnsting magic until the Dragonrise. It is unclear whether Kallyr or Argrath have some minor access to this.

 

A couple things to note:

Hendrik's original clan, the Gavrenings, are also the Hunter clan. His tradition of food gathering may even be hunter/gatherer. His native area was heavily forested, and the Hendriki hid in the Steal Woods from the Bright Empire.

Hendrik used to work for the Bright Empire and thus came into contact with Nysalorean philosophy; indeed in HQ:G, Larnsting is defined as a type of Illumination.

'Orlanth Larnsting' = Orlanth Adventurous.

He also transformed enemy sorcerers into brass mules, which is a significant feat, I think.

I think it highly probable that Argrath has some sort of Larnsting knowledge.

Sartar's last transformation was his apotheosis.

11 minutes ago, soltakss said:

You could hang everything off the Movement Rune, but that might be a bit of a cop-out.

Sartar is a bit of a mystery, as his background is unclear, except as a Larnsting. Even Larnstings are quite unclear, I think.

Knowing more about the background of Larnstings might help decide whether this is sorcery, divine or simply using the Movement Rune.

The Larnstings are defined as Illuminates and avoiding 'spiritual pollution' in HQ:G (as I do more research), which indicates they are Mystics. Le sigh.

Of course, we lack any convenient Mysticism rules as yet. Has anyone jury-rigged one together?

While comparatively easy to do in HeroQuest, it's all too clear (at least to my limited perception) that Larnsting metamorphosis magic isn't really covered by any of the current rules. How would you all do it?

(I'm not particularly interested in the answer 'don't do it' as my campaign I have planned out is set in c.1450-1470 and that magic is pretty central to Sartar's saga. And, as ever, making it something a PC could learn something of is pretty important for telling a good story.)

Yelm as the singular sun has always been a doubtful notion to me: he simply defeated or stole the powers of his rivals. There have also been many moons.

Notice the the Avian warriors include women, under their Red Sun.

Also note that Nivorah wasn't part of the Emperor's rule at one point. Perhaps their Elmal is just as old as 'Yelm'.

2 hours ago, Darius West said:

I have puzzled over the same things.  Say, does that make Kralorela=Thrace, and the East Isles= the Aegean? LOL.  Not such a great fit.

Genertela is about the size of Europe or North America east-west. It's significantly smaller than Eurasia. This sort of tight fit is inevitable, but the Wastes are a much more serious cultural barrier than the Steppes of Central Asia.

I think the name "Common Magic" clearly explains the issue. It's not just about convenience. It's also about hierarchy and class. Sorcerers believe themselves to be elite. It would be like combining folk magic with thaumaturgy in the Middle Ages. It's just not done.

1 hour ago, Darius West said:

It is interesting that the Spike is almost sitting in Egypt as you transpose the maps border for border.  Well... Egypt or Palestine.  So is it Jerusalem of the Great Pyramid?  It certainly isn't the tower of Babel, which would have been my first guess.

Jerusalem was sometimes identified as the former site of the Garden of Eden in the Middle Ages (which, in other legends, is found on top of an immense mountain, viz. Dante's Paradisio).

I think, hesitantly, that this suggests that at some point in the generation of Glorantha's mythos that it may have been either an alternate history of our world, or a post-apocalyptic future.

14 hours ago, EricW said:

Trollkin are badly deformed trolls.

I guess most deformities in Glorantha can be healed, in a world where limbs can be reattached or regrown someone local has “cure deformity” skills.

Only very poor people or people afflicted with powerful curses would have to endure unwanted physiological problems.

Or ordinarily poor and lower-caste people where disabilities, deformities and unattractiveness is viewed as the proper state for those low on the social scale. Dara Happa, for example, or Fonrit, or Rokari and Brithini societies. In other societies, like in Prax or Pent, I can imagine crippled children or unfortunates who are maimed are murdered.

Teelo Estara, Chalana Arroy and Xiola Umbar are extraordinary because of their unusual moral code, not representative of people or Uz's normal reactions. Charity is not a given, even among Orlanthi: it is easy to 'other' the unfortunate.

Does anyone else recall the White Dwarf scenario "Rumble in the Tin Inn"? Because it seems germane.

Now, I am a KAP writer (or will be, when the book comes out) so I have a vested interest in it continuing to grow... but, there are missing bits from KAP, even for a traditional chivalric campaign:

1. The Grail Quest (in all its variations)

2. Sailing and Sea Battles (they do occur in several romances)

3. The basic assumption is that the knights have lands and property. The knight errant - the near beggar/fugitive knight - is not really a focus, even though it's a dominant part of several romance cycles.

45 minutes ago, Joerg said:

I regard the Dragon Pass regiments as one of the untouchable basic foundations of Glorantha, possibly subject to some re-interpretation. Even when it makes the Sartarite hillman militia better cavalry than their lowland Native Furthest corps counterparts.

Replace Elmal with Yelmalio as the cavalry god and that's what happens... (Happans)

The Tarshite cavalry are presumably descended from the Yarandros hero band, which, given his connections to the Berennethtelli, were presumably (originally) Elmali.

2 hours ago, womble said:

http://www.glorantha.com/docs/how-orlanth-met-ernalda/

Says God Gryphon.

Gold Gryphon also tries to bar Orlanth's access to Yelm ('the Maggot King') in Hell, so this makes sense. This probably means that the doors to noble DHs are decorated with Gryphons as well.