jeffjerwin

1 hour ago, scott-martin said:

 

I wonder who in Glorantha originally worshipped Aether and claimed mythic priority over both the Emperor and "Rebellus Terminus." It's hard to have it both ways unless you've found a way to mitigate the sun/storm rivalry . . . if you're invested in solar purity there's no compelling reason to proclaim Primal Fire got low and down with earth and woman at all, and on the storm side I don't see a lot of incentive to tell the tale either. Since Yelm already has a disorderly little brother it's interesting to contemplate how they might've told it once among the Lodrilites back when there was a Lodrilela. They might actually be the ones who preserve the Dayzatar story where older brother abstracts himself right out of the big picture and leaves us down here with all the good things the world has to offer.
 

Tarumath?

The Amalgam Deities of Nysalor's empire unite Aether and Wind. Tarumath is gone now, but Daysenerus was transformed into Tharkantus.

Thanks, jajagappa. I'll have to incorporate all this in the next go-around!

A doozy of an event...

20 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

Oh right, Kargan "Tor." But far be it from me to brake your stride or blur your vision. Focus is critical!

I went back to the map to see if there might be anything like a tour cycle and the original WBRM setup direction ("each of the Ruins except the Upland Marsh and also on the capitals") reveals a little chatter and maybe a fresh signal. Do we know why Furthest and Boldhome had to be built where they were in order to satisfy the puppet path hypothesis?

Boldhome was inaccessible before Sartar made the road up the mountain. It's very close as the wyrm flies to a Dragonewt City...

Furthest appears 'de novo' in all the recent canon stuff, as far as I can tell, but I also note it seems to have been built on an EWF City ruin according to 'Tarsh in Flames', and the maps, drawn from Greg's notes seem to indeed show an unnamed city there; the equally deuterocanonical Second Age material shows no such city. In fact, the Glorantha Sourcebook (and Tarsh in Flames) shows the Death line passing through the site. So as a former EWF ruin it aligns with the other material.

Note that both of these locations for illusory troops are deleted in Dragon Pass the later edition. Instead, the Spider Vale and Too Far are substituted.

In the RW, that's probably because putting an Illusory troop in the capitals makes it a bit too easy for a player to end up with a useful Independent faction on the first turn.

I also prefer not visiting the rulers directly: make them trek a bit to see your performance. Showing up in his palace makes it seem like you serve him...

15 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

The Duke is a controversial figure with his almost anti-canonical archaic title only seen now in places like the far West and the Blue Moon Plateau of all places. 

And, of course, Harvar, 'duke of Alda-chur' - smack in the middle of all this. He may be the target of the mockery.

Duke = Latin 'warlord' = hence probably the same title, just translated differently?

24 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

 It beats the Delecti experience.

I wonder where the Dancers in Darkness came from?

14 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

I guess that's a better way to frame it: how exactly did the Troupe itself persist within Dragon Pass through the Inhuman Occupation except through, among other strategies, being trolls? It beats the Delecti experience.

If they were trolls they seem to have avoided any association with the wars among the Elder Races. I think they also had elves and beast folk.

Their mysterious connection with the Waltzing and Hunting Bands and the Snake Pipe Dancers (whose wyter is an Earth Dragon) however suggests that they may have sidestepped the whole issue.

Of course, if anyone can trick a dragon, it would be a rune cult of Illusion. Maybe the human initiates wore masks.

If there were any humans among them they may also be connected to Sorana Tor. Where did she come from? How did her people survive?

In my game, they have a 'duke' (the Duke of Disorder) and a 'queen of Harmony' (who wears a mask, and whose dress is a mixture of rags and finery). Both are costumes a random initiate wears for tricking 'other' rulers. They don't have leaders. They do seem to have at least one runaway princess (Marlesta of Norinel/Sartar), but I have her as an elderly dancing instructor, Mrs. Esta.

1 minute ago, scott-martin said:

"Behind you!" Love it. I always thought the persistence of trolls within the Troupe was a little mysterious (other than as a framework for introducing shadow puppetry) but once again this thread outperforms. 

I need to digest a lot of this business as it relates to archaic "lowland storms," wife betrayal and so on. You're hot! 

Donandar defeated Kyger Litor by performing for her (see Cults Compendium, p.232). She loved it. Trolls love a good show, it seems.

5 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

The "Umath" Cave in active use within the Redstone Caverns was always a little enigmatic for me at least. 

Umath being Asrelia's beloved, with whom she never was united.

In the Glorantha Sourcebook, the Puppeteers are performing a myth where the two lovers are separated by the Bright Emperor and the Green Dragon is about to ambush him... Oddly, we know of no such myth in print. Orlanth is later seen carrying the head of the Green Dragon... Which suggests he is Shakaharzeel/Sh'hakarzeel/Sh'harkazeel, the Mover of Heavens... Sh'hakarzeel is the Moon-destroyer/Utuma of the Goddess. Perhaps he was the Utuma of Yelm as well.

Year 1539-1544

Dragonewts' Dream

Participating Homelands: All

D20 Event

1-15    Your ancestor observed the dragonewts phantoms traversing the landscape, but kept their distance.

15-20 Your ancestor was present when conflict erupted between their people and the phantoms. Roll below.

D20

1-4   Found a dragonewt artifact, somehow left behind. It is an Utuma. See Runequest Bestiary, p.38

5-7   Was driven from their home by the horde of ghosts. Gain Fear (Dragonewts).

6-12 Witnessed the dragonewts altering the landscape and destroying or devouring spirits. Gain Elder Races Lore (Dragonewts) +1d6%

13-17 Tried to stop or talk to the dragonewts and was caught up in the event. Every one said they were cursed afterwards. Gain Dragonewt rune +5%.

18-20 Slain purposefully or accidentally by the dragonewt incursion. Gain Hate (Dragonewts).

10 hours ago, metcalph said:

An example of an Issaries Bandit is Golgotti Guildersnatcher (Borderlands and Beyond p195) who as well as banditry sells fake truestones, phony slave bracelets, so-called POW matrices and 'Maps".

Any connection to Goldgotti?

3 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Granted, you could say that the Lankstites (and I'd guess other Orlanthi as well) are simply wrong, due to being away from the Vingkotling core area, and later converts - but I'm still wary of a semi-literalist attempt to combine mythic and mundane terrain.

The trouble is, of course, that the myths can actually be visited, and you - and this occurs in recountings of these visits - 'recognize' terrain, like mountains.

That's how you know your proper direction. Think of Mastakos' directions to Orlanth on the early Westfaring.

Of course, myths align to the worshippers. Geography conforms to expectations, because the 'mountain' is an actual entity, a divinity itself, and could in the God Time, move on its own.

In this case, Asrelia's home is described in a certain way so it can be recognized. Asrelia exists in the inner secret part of the Earth - wherever there is an Earth cult - which is almost everywhere outside the Ocean !.... As I pointed out re. the Arcane Lore book, one of her homes is close to Ginijji.

So her Home must be all over the place.

In any case, the Vanak Spear Quest gives only one clue as to the location of the Empty Mountain: it was next to the 'Storm Age Forest'. Wouldn't it make somewhat more sense for this Empty Mountain to be somewhere in the cultural geography of the Berenethtelli? The story comes from Holay... And the mountains around Cragspider (perhaps our Empty Mountain is a different one nearby) are just about at the exploratory horizon of the Berenethtelli...

Edit: the Indigo Mountains are volcanic, like Empty Mountain. They are also riddled with caves. Perhaps Empty Mountain > a former identification of a peak in the Indigo Mountains and Conquest Mountain (which is part of Aedin's Wall) is distinct...

45 minutes ago, alakoring said:

To me, she was closer to Humakt. (I can’t recall if this was from Sandy or not.)

Tracked down http://glorantha.temppeli.org/digest/gd8/2001.03/2170.html but haven’t located Sandy’s original online.

Maybe both and also Elmal. She's of the Fire/Sky Tribe though, and seeking vengeance for the Sun's murder. If she's Sun Daughter, the rapprochement with Tyloque/Orlanth also corresponds with the forgiveness of Elmal, and hence sets the stage for the 'making right' of the rekindling of the Sun.

32 minutes ago, Joerg said:

I think that your spiral is a lot smaller than the peaks in Aedin's Wall suggest.

Doktados or Empty Mountain is a peak in the Mislari, a hollow caldera. Blackorm Mt. aka Cliffhome is Conquest Mountain on the inner circle of the spiral. (Thunder Rebels p.137)

The correspondence of that map with Gloranthan geography is somewhat weak, but the peaks are clearly identified.

I think that the peaks are displaced/overlap... after all the official geography is impossible... However there are a few fixed points: Kero Fin, Hydra Mountain, Quivin, and Arrowmound are all identifiable, which establishes a rough perimeter, as does Stormwalk. Things were a bit of a jumble during the Gods War and the Greater Darkness. Empty Mountain used to be there: Storm Tribe p.135. If Empty Mountain in Mislari was the original (like Odayla's mountain in Sylila) it would make for a sort of moebius geography.

I'd venture that Orlanth's Holy Mountains all have a connection to Kero Fin, and hence have a mythic landscape corresponding to the ideal Storm Stead/Aedin's Wall. The specific mountain identifications sound like a conflation of disparate myths. The one I'm looking at now is the Dragon Pass mythic landscape. Within that subgroup of Orlanth traditions (admittedly the dominant one since the era of Orlanthland), the chain of mountains create a pretty obvious Air/wind rune, as marked above. Aedin's Gap falls logically at the Snake Pipe Hollow, which makes sense.

The presumption I make is that Empty Mountain is whatever Mountain in the vicinity of the Holy Mountain best exemplifies its runic and legendary geography. So there's probably quite a few...

Cragspider's presence de-sanctifies her area from the Orlanthi perspective, overlaying her own mythos. The Mislari location probably doesn't have such difficulties, but it clearly connects to the Esrolian mythology, not the Dragon Pass version.

In any case, Aedin's Gap was probably also a place of trade and interface with the Other (hence the many spirits gathered here). The Rich Home culture would have become rich as a the market of the Storm culture but would have been profoundly exposed after Chaos began rampaging. This is consistent with the story in Snake Pipe Hollow.

In Esrolia, we find Asrelia or Ezel. But there is - as is clear in other texts - a different Ernaldela east of Kero Fin, where Asrelia was also. Note also the doubling of I Fought We Won. It takes place in both Snake Pipe Hollow and on the Shadow Plateau. Possibly part of the destroyed Rich Home culture migrated to Esrolia and moved 'Asrelia' (who is also the Empty Mountain - compare her representation by the Trolls) with them.

Another comment: the Esrolian remaking of the primeval Earth territory in to be within their boundaries is I think artificial, though it's not a lie - it's just a renovation of their mythic landscape.

Further examination of my overlay of the Storm Stead onto Dragon Pass (from my Sword and Helm research):

First, the Empty Mountain is clearly Cragspider's Mountain. It is the 'Gate to Hell' (like the nearby Castle of Lead). The Underworld comes closest to the surface here.

Aedin's Gap is Snake Pipe Hollow.

The legend of Aedin being traded the goddess of joy and the legend of Turim being traded Voria are clearly connected. They share the same geography. Turim = Aedin.

Thus the connection between Asrelia and the Vanak Spear and the post-Time localization of the myth in Snake Pipe Hollow is explained. The 'gap'ness of Aedin's Gap and the existence of the Chaos nest are connected because it's the chink in the defenses of Kerofinela.

The Puppeteers gather on the walls and gate to Kerofinela. Perhaps the Puppets are part of the final defense of the Last Stead against Chaos? They are the shadows and giants constructed out of Elmal's lantern and straw and cloth to look like an army, when there are no warriors left? A 'trick' against the Pre-dark that gives the impression of strength. But it is strength, of course, if it works.

More to come.

There's another tangental connection to Donandar in Ginijji:

Note the Harp in Leika’s Crown-test, and the reference to the ‘Golden Harp’ in the scenario hook in WF 10, and the Rune-dancers on the same page (p.9). The rune dancers gather in a 'floor of tiles' in a forest clearing (note that the Puppeteers gather in Dragon Pass in a random hex in the Stinking Forest).

The hook describes the Golden Harp as being part the 'Cult of the Golden Harp' and hidden in some catacombs which are disputed with the 'forces of Chaos' who fight with them over the underground complex. Telmori ('wolf-brothers') are said to control it. Plucking the string protects the player from Chaos for one hour.

This may be compared to the legend about Umath and Harana Ilor in KoS, where she is the first harp (kinda like Humakt is also a sword?) fashioned by Umath out of the guts of a Pre-dark daimon.

In the Crown-test of Leika Ballista, (see Wyrms Footprints, p.104 – I don’t have the original WF), the heroine and her band discover the Duke of Disorder in the Snake Pipe Caverns. A self-playing Golden Harp (aka Jewelled [sic] Notes) is in the Duke’s possession, and Leika requests the treasure (much to his dismay). This happened in 1613.

The Duke of Disorder would seem to be Eurmal, but I'm not really sure. He may be a distinct Trickster spirit. Valon/Ginijji/Far Point was a Spirit-conquered country during the Flood Era.

Since the Puppeteers circle Ginijji in their ritual sites, I suspect that (their version of) Donandar derives from the Rich Home culture and the Ginijji-Far Point Earth people destroyed during the Greater Darkness. (I've already noted that Donandar is placed between Kerofin and the Castle of Lead, at least by inference.) Donandar is the 'child' of Harana Ilor (along with Issaries and possibly Chalana Arroy).

Compare:

Maran[a] Gor

Harana Ilor

Unrelated note on Turim the Giant.... Chalk Man, whose hills are adjacent to Orvano, where Voria was handled over, is also a giant. Could Turim be Chalk Man?

Part II: 1582-1621

1585                           Valinyr retires and Valinalda the Rich of Delainaeo is queen of Nochet.

1591                           Lunar invasion of Sartar turned back.

1597                           Assassinations of Sartarite royalty in the Holy Country. [in RQ:G]

1596/9                      Argrath is born in the Starfire Ridges.

1600                           A ‘stray moon-beam’ blinds Terasarin. He is killed.                       

                                    Salinarg becomes king.         

                                    The Household of Death, Salinarg’s three childen, swear their terrible oath.

1602                           Battle of Runegate Fort.

                                    Battle of Caroman Pass.

                                    Siege and conquest of Boldhome. [in RQ:G]

c.1603                        Sartarite refugees flee to Hendrikiland and Esrolia. In Nochet, Queen Valinalda welcomes them.

1605                           Building Wall Battle [in RQ:G]

1607                           The Wolf-hunt

                                    Destruction of the Maboder

1608                           First Lunar invasion of Prax. [in RQ:G]

1609                           The Boar-hunt

1610                           Grandmother Valinyr of Delainaeo dies in Nochet, along with Valinalda her neice, slain by an evil spirit (possibly sent by the Lunars). Hendira of Norinel, daughter-in-law of Valinalda, becomes queen.

                                    Minira becomes FHQ after the death of Virkala under ‘mysterious circumstances’ (see above…).

                                    Conquest of Pavis [in RQ:G]

                                    The Moirades the mad, king of Tarsh, dies during his union with Jar-Eel. His son Pharandos becomes king.

1611                           Seven Tributes exacted by Culbrea on the Red Cow.

                                    The Righteous Wind

1613                           Starbrow’s Revolt [in RQ:G]

1614                           Tournament of the Masters of Luck and Death.

1615                           Tormakt’s Farm Massacre

                                    Lunar-Grazer War [in RQ:G]

1617                           The duel at Dangerford.

1618                           Greymane’s Raid [in RQ:G]

1619                           Siege of Whitewall [in RQ:G]

1620                           Fall of Whitewall [in RQ:G]

RP and gamemaster/player consensus?

Arkat added and maximised his Darkness Rune for instance... The trolls have a handy way to do that. They will show you if you ask nicely.

Consorting frequently with that element may count. If you marry the river nymph, you might end up with some Water rune.

Joining a new cult also. If a troll initiates to Orlanth, he or she will gain (in) the Air rune, one would imagine. Though most likely they'd already have it as a secondary rune to even contemplate the idea.

Working draft of Expanded Family History (1520-1620)

Part I: 1520-1582

1520                           Apotheosis of Sartar.

1525                           Failed coup in Nochet against Queen Bruvala of House Norinel, led by her daughter. Brengala (another daughter) becomes queen.

c.1530                        Elmali strife in northern Sartar.

1535                           Death of Eneera Tor, FHQ, aged 104.

1532-37                     Civil War in Sun County. [visit of Monrogh and Tarkalor?]

1538-55                     The war of Palashee Longaxe in Tarsh

1538                           Burning of the Temple of the Reaching Moon.

c.1539                        Doragrestol participates in the Tournament of the Masters of Luck and Death.

1539-44                     Dragonewt Dream.

1539                           The Rubble opens.

c.1540                        Aramites submit to Palashee.

1543                           Battle of the Donalf Flats.

1545                           Queen Mother Bruvala dies, aged 104. Her daughter Brengala retires; her daughter Norina becomes queen.

1546                           Sarotar slain in Esrolia; Arkilia abducted. House Norinel implicated.

1550                           New Pavis founded. [?]

1550                           Battle of Dwarf Ford; death of Saronil.

                                    A Tournament of the Masters of Luck and Death.

1551                           Queen Norina is assassinated by Sartarite agents acting on bloodfeud. Imarjira of House Delaeos, a cousin, becomes queen. Her brother won the tournament a year earlier, but she struggles for power with Queen Mother Brengala.

1555                           Battle of Karnge Farm. Death of Philigos.

                                    Battle of Axefield. Death of Palashee Longaxe.

                                    Cinsina-Dinacoli War.

c.1551-64                  Kitori Wars/Trollkiller wars in Hendrikiland. [Corresponds to political crisis in Esrolia.] Bloodfeud with House Norinel may have connections to the war against the Kitori, who had mythic ties to the namesake of that House.

                                    Tarkalor befriends the Night Jumpers.

                                    The Red Cow sends warriors to fight beside Tarkalor.

c.1556-9                     ‘The Years of War against the Evil Empire’ [tCS, p.59]

1564                           Tarsh Army invades Balazar.

                                    Queen Imarjira is forced to abdicate and is replaced by Valinyr of Delainaeo, called the Sage.

1565                           Jarolar is slain. Verala Tor becomes FHQ.

c.1565                        Dorasor’s settlers and adventurers (many veterans of the Trollkiller War) in Pavis become rich looting the Rubble. One such is Kulfin of the Cinsina. [tCS, p.103]

1568                           Yorastina, former FHQ, ‘stumbles in her rituals’ and dies.

1569                           Tarkalor becomes prince of Sartar.

1572                           The nomads are defeated by Duke Dorasor at New Pavis; Badside Rebellion.

c.1573                        Orldaging war between Malani and Colymar.

1575                           Tarkalor marries the Feathered Horse Queen.

                                    Olend the Slim of the Cinsina dies in the Grazelands (with the groom’s party, nonviolently?)

1577                           War between the Colymar and King Tarkalor.

                                    Raid of the Dolutha against the Emerald Sword.

1579                           Coronation of Moirades.

                                    Death of Dorasor.

                                    Vaantar refounded as a Sun Dome County. Ergoshi enslaved.

                                    War between Sartar and Tarsh.

1580                           The Opening

1582                           Battle of Grizzly Peak [see RQ:G, p.xx]

Part II is coming.

4 hours ago, Joerg said:

 

I have no idea why Tarkalor was so set on removing the Kitori from the southern fringes of his father's kingdom. I think he was too young to have been a friend of Darlanth, the Hendriki governor-king of Heortland who lost his office (and possibly, but not definitely) his life in 1544. 

 

The House Norinel in Nochet that murdered Sarotar is descended from the legendary sacred marriage of Norinel and Kimantor - that is - the origin of the Kitori mystery. They are 'wife' and 'husband'.

It's a feud.

52 minutes ago, Pentallion said:

But it also says on that same page:  "Maran Gor is the fighting guardian of the Underworld. The pig-dogs do not normally appear with her, but do normally appear in the Underworld."

So you may be inferring too much from that reference.

Perhaps they are more closely associated with Asrelia (pigs as rooters in the earth for truffles/treasure)? In any case, Asrelia is also associated with Snake Pipe Hollow in the same quest.

Do ducks have clans or do they have rafts, braces, teams, or paddlings?

Paddlings may be their war bands.

Wow! OK, on a roll...

I will condense these suggestions into a new timeline tomorrow.

We probably could do with more Grazer, Esrolian, and Tarshite events, though I suspect that Sartar will still be the most common choice for characters.

Someone should do a 'Red Cow' style book for the Durulz.

What are the Duck clans?

Who are their ancestral wyters?

What epic feuds over stolen livestock have played out?

Who is their Romeo and who is their Juliet?

1550: The Battle of Dwarf Ford

Participating Homelands: Sartar, Old Tarsh

D20 Event

1-15  Your ancestor did not accompany Prince Saronil in his attack on the dwarves.

16-20 Your ancestor accompanied Saronil's hero band to Dwarf Ford.

The Battle at Dwarf Ford

1-10 Your ancestor fled with Saronil's granddaughter, helping her to reach Sartar in safety. Gain Loyalty (Sartar)

11-20 Your ancestor was slain alongside Saronil, covering the escape of his granddaughter. Gain Hate (Dwarves), Honor Passion and +1d3% Reputation.

looks like this got triple... posted by accident. Can an admin delete?