jeffjerwin

14 minutes ago, Zozotroll said:

Yes baboon comes to mind.  Not sure there are trollkin heroes.  Other than to other trollkin

All troll kin who survive to adulthood are heroes. Perhaps not brave, or glorious, or mighty. But as tough as a barnyard cat, anyway.

1 hour ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Kero Fin's seemingly unique relation to Orlanth is the one aspect that does seem problematic with my whole mountain-adaptation thing. That being said - do Ralian or Fronelan Orlanthi acknowledge Kero Fin as Orlanth's mother? Or do they have different genealogies to him? If we knew that, we could perhaps extrapolate what's possible for someone on the other side of the world.

I always inferred that each of Orlanth's sacred mountains is one of his many mothers [compare the multiple birthplaces of Zeus]. He has several scattered across central and western Genertela and presumably more in Umathela.

On 8/23/2018 at 2:33 AM, soltakss said:

 

I much prefer a messier approach, as it can lead to ambiguities. If one clan is patrilineal and another is matrilineal, then an Adventurer could well belong to both clans, one through the father and one through the mother. A relationship approved by one clan could be considered taboo by another.

This is the sort of thing a marriage agreement is going to decide. 'Belonging to both' means the negotiation/lawspeaker got screwed up.

Though that sounds like a good story.

One could imagine the child of a sacred marriage being given a choice as an adult, based on the god that speaks to them. Then a tug-of-war could ensue if their 'body' is magically/socially important - like they are the legal 'owner' of land in contention and the marriage was to make a truce.

1 hour ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

There might even be some interesting interplay between the Storm Gods' mythical connection to the top of these peaks, and the Hot Earth God role "below/inside" them. I'm reminded of the story of how an enemy giant promised to build a wall around Storm Village against marrying the Orlanthi goddess of happiness. Perhaps it's the Hot Earth God that stands in for this role in Umathela, whether as a villain, buffoon or good guy, who knows. The Umathelan mountain range seem like a good stand-in for the role played by the Rockwood range in general, and Umath's Throne seems to be a suitable stand in for Kero Fin, Top of the World Mountain or Stormwalk as the local Orlanthi "Axis Mundi",  given the Orlanthi mythical adaptability (eg. during the Theyalan missionary expansion).
 

Remember that Kero Fin (a mountain, daughter of Larnste in Genertela) is the mother of Orlanth. Umathelan Orlanth is probably the son of a daughter of the volcano god. As his maternal grandfather, not only does he have a kinship right in Orlanth's house, but the story of Umath and the daughter of the mountain's courtship is probably different and important. Think Culhwch ac Olwen...

Where is Orlanth's mountain mother in Umathela?

6 minutes ago, JonL said:

For any of the Elmali who were magically supporting Monrogh's heroquest, his "discovery" became their reality as well. That's honestly the only reason I can see for so many people who had dedicated their lives to protecting their communities up to that point to abandon that to pick up and move to a Sun Dome.

Elmal would seem to typify a 'conservative' strand in Heortling culture. It's my belief that when Sartar and his followers made so many changes, it shook the 'arch-conservative' nature of the Quivin tribes - they fled Heortland/Hendrikiland after all to avoid profound changes and the cosmopolitan influence of Belintar - and the Emlali found themselves facing an existential crisis: their defensive and practical obligations were eroded by Sartar's new sheriffs and the peace he established, as well as his Larnsting nature - quite opposite to their fixed and circular path. So the innovation of Yelmalio is to them a 'greater tradition' or 'the prisca theologia' - they fall back on an imagined order which 'returned them to purity'. It is this tendency that we see with historical conservative movements: a conservativism that becomes so defiant that it turns into a new, radical thing. Compare the Catholic League during the French Wars of Religion, or the reactionary response to modernism becoming Fascism.

Retrenchment is a particularly conservative/traditionist response, often more instinctual than rational, that results in something unrecognizable. The Elmal > Yelmalio shift is a very good example of this. Monrogh's insistence that this was the 'true, original, way' (we know it was not) allowed people to 'rebel' while still appealing to authority and the Elmali instinct to preserve and repair.

Don't forget that Orlanth extended the hand of friendship toward Yelm, the bad emperor, because, in part, Yelm's son/soul fragment befriended him and passed his test. Orlanth's action was still chancy, but he sees the kinship between Elmal, the 'most loyal thane' to whom he entrusted his whole surviving people when he went into the land of the dead, and his father, the god he murdered.

The sun above is not the bad emperor anymore: he is Big Elmal, the emperor who is capable of forgiveness and whose son speaks for him.

49 minutes ago, Joerg said:

but that doesn't mean that this war may not have been started earlier with the Elmali exodus claiming Vanntar earlier. The Kitori were a powerful and tenacious tribe, and liberating the territory for good is likely to have taken more than a single year's campaign. It isn't clear whether Belintar would have just sat by to see his Kitori allies pushed out of the Volsaxi lands formally inside the Holy Country (according to the Centaur's Cross treaty), and already the conquest of Vanntar may have seen Holy Country interference against Monrogh.

Vanntar wasn't part of Sartar when Tarkalor and his allies (Monrogh, the Volsaxi) chased out (or enslaved) the Kitori. It is possible that Tarkalor had to become King of Dragon Pass to be entitled to give away the title of that land.

There is a chance that the establishment of Monrogh in Vanntar may have been a result of Sarotar's death in Nochet, which appears to have happened at the time when Tarkalor and Monrogh were in Teshnos. The list of governor-kings of Heortland (History of the Heortling Peoples p.94) has Verenama (from Esrolia) until 1553, probably with ties to House Norinel, which would have made her a target for the vengeance of the grandsons of Sartar while Saronil was paralyzed in grief (and then died rescuing Minara from dwarves - possibly also tied to this Cold War conflict with Esrolia). There are quite a few governor kings in subsequent years, with a lot of trouble around 1571-72.

 

It's interesting that Belintar did not take more forceful action - his relationship, of course, with Sartar was complex. He essentially is the bogeyman for the traditionalist clans who settled the Quivin mountains, but it was partly with his support that Sartar resisted the Lunar Empire in the coming decades.

A wild surmise: Belintar partially mastered the Light/Sky rune [in the form of Veskarthan/Caladra & Aurelion's fire), but perhaps he could have extended his power over the region, if Vanntar could be absorbed into a Greater Holy Country. Many of the other cultic sites in the region see similar meddling where eventually a God-king emerges from their elites.

4 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Well, this thread got me musing about a possible Norwegian translation, and I ended up with "Gudkyndig" ("God-knower"), from the archaic "kunn(e)" for specialist knowledge, which is related to modern "kunne" and "kan", the part-tense conditional and present tense versions of the verb "can" (with the implication of "to be able to do, to know how to do"). -kyndig is nowadays mostly used in legal contexts (a "sakkyndig" is a legal council or expert), but "fagkyndig" is occasionally used to refer to a highly trained tradesman, craftsman or artisan.

"Lærd" works too, but for some reason I didn't think of it after I read the above post. Makes me wonder if "lærling" (apprentice, but literally "learner-ing" could work too. Kinda implies they're apprentices to the gods though, which doesn't quite sit right with how the God Learners are presented or what they did.

Interesting - the English cognate cunning is used for cunning men and cunning women - that is, folk witches, though there's a fair bit of sinister implication in the English word.

4 hours ago, Joerg said:

 

Whether the fog forms is a different question, and also which fog. Huraya's Scarf of Mist is positive, while Iphara's murder fog is anything but positive.

 

If the Monterey Bay is part of the behind the scenes to this, it's thick, low-visibility, and charges in from the Ocean. It's not ideal for driving... and can be a little unnervingly fast.

19 minutes ago, Yelm's Light said:

While fertility may have been represented by physical plenty (and often more than the usual number of breasts), I'm not so sure about beauty.  Late Bronze Age (mid-second millennium to first-millennium BC) representations of Aphrodite or Isis or Athena don't show them as Earth-goddess types, they're more on the Venus model above.  Not willowy Twiggy-types, but certainly more athletic than 'plentiful.'

The Venus above, if fully dressed, would be 'overweight' from a modern perspective. Here she is from the back.

Note I don't think she really is all that unhealthy looking, but fully clothed she would look like a fairly ordinary, slightly heavy woman in terms of build. Not at all like the athletic or slender build of Artemis... The classical and ancient idea of a beautiful woman resembles our Venus more than it does her sister.

8 hours ago, Eff said:

So if there's any difference in body shapes, I would suggest general chubbiness more than anything, a physical reflection of the person's ability to enjoy the finer things in life, in line with Asrelia as the goddess of wealth etc. This also has the advantage of being gender-neutral (as opposed to having Fertility in male characters be expressed via oversized codpieces or loose-fitting pants and togas, etc.)

Modern expectations of beauty have absolutely nothing to do with Glorantha. Fat is very important to being a fertile woman: starvation is an excellent way to pause menses or miscarry. Hence Ernalda and other Fertility goddesses are going to be curvaceous or even voluptuous.

Uleria is not the goddess of child birthing and pregnancy (Ernalda is), but by extension, she's probably represented as a rich/abundant (heavyset) woman.

The modern Western stereotype of a beautiful woman looks like she needs to put on some more pounds and mature a bit compared to what I would expect the Central Genertelan stereotype is. She's more of a Voria/Teenaged pre-Initiate type, not suitable for marriage, or even a death-cultist, who has stopped her fertility.

(hopefully this isn't offensive)

See the Venus de Milo below.

4 hours ago, Jeff said:

I don't see Heortland looking much at all like Britain. I'd say Monterey Bay and the South Coastal Range or Point Reyes and the North Coastal Range are a much better feel, although Heortland is likely much wetter.

We get a lot of fog most of the year. It doesn't rain very often but it's quite damp. I have to keep a dehumidifier going.

43 minutes ago, Joerg said:

While I subscribe to Ian's statement here, I will note that the oldest tribal map of Sartar I have seen used the White Bear and Red Moon hex map, assigned one clan per hex and drew outlines around continuous areas.

There's no picture of this map anywhere is there?

12 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Spoken like a true Dara Happan or Rokari. Strangely, neither the Loskalmi nor the Lunars appear to worry much about these effects, they do embrace the alternative or meritocratic ways to rise to the top levels of society.

Pre-Karolingian real world leaders had to prove their divine descent or nature in order to be accepted in their superior role. Gloranthan heroquesting offers exactly that kind of legitimation as a reward.

The Lunar Empire is a much more dangerous place than the Dara Happan Empire for its elites... Dart Competitions are the logical result of a runaway number of possible sources of legitimization, even post-facto legitimization. On the other hand, it is probably a more liberal and more flexible place for everyone who's not a member of the elite or who doesn't feel ambitious and initiates to the Lunar Way. In a sense, the tyranny of the aristocracy is subverted by the countervailing quasi-Darwinian power struggle.

I can't speak for Loskalm, however.

9 hours ago, Joerg said:

The Orlanthi manage to balance this advantage with their notorious disunity. Even when they start some of the greatest projects in the history of Glorantha, like the God Project in Dorastor or the EWF, there are always die-hard dissidents willing to fight to the death and beyond to stop these from happening.

Organisation beats individual prowess on the battlefield, and in the clash of cultures. Being able to recruit allies from the culture you're fighting (disunity) is a big plus, too, unless you ally to individuals like RW Arminius or Argrath.

More hierarchical societies in fact probably discourage high rates of Initiation and thus potential power turnovers... Initiation is by its nature somewhat meritocratic (though also exclusive), and that's a big no-no for the larger empires. Every initiate is a part of the God/open to her/his mysteries, and thus a potential chief/chieftain/ruler. This means that it is awfully easy to end up with alternate sources of authority.

I think it should be noted that the high rate of initiation among the Heortlings is unusual for Gloranthan cultures. It's what makes them indomitable. 

See also: http://asterix.wikia.com/wiki/Indomitable_village

1 hour ago, jajagappa said:

Yes, should be some good farmland but you need crops that won't rot from the hot, humid, and rainy summer weather.  Citrus groves may work here.  And likely good for cattle grazing - less so for sheep.

I live very close to Elkhorn Slough. It's excellent weather for lettuce, cabbage, asparagus, artichokes, melons,  and strawberries (the last a bit inland). It's called the Salad Bowl of California for a reason... On the north side of the bay it's a bit warmer and many people grow fruit or avocado in their lawns.

There are also a lot of cattle upland, but the county is full of livestock, including sheep, pigs, and goats.

4 hours ago, Bohemond said:

And it's a really nice example of a women's quest, where the secret is the villain is not violently defeated but rather restored to benevolence (Ernalda's Other Way principle). 

It's interesting that the Lightbringer's Quest ends this way too. Orlanth is also accompanied by a wise ghost... (the ghost of the Earth). He discovers he doesn't need her to tell him what to do: the power of 'there is always another way' has become a part of him too.

5 hours ago, davecake said:

And when we get back to Yinkin, are we really sure that there is any magical law telling us that Yinkin couldn't be approached via multiple methods in the same way, if only the Yinkini believed it was so? What if their mythology wasn't so entwined with Orlanths, and their cult so thoroughly domesticated and Heortling in practice? Isn't theist Yinkin looking like a weird special case, and a more mixed nature for many animal gods looking more common? 

I have generally thought of the whole notion of Cat Witches (there are at least two of them...) as telling... the term 'witch' in Glorantha generally indicates some sort of non-standard form of magic, usually spirit-based. I think it highly probable that Yinkin has a shamanic subcult, like Kolat to Orlanth.

It is, however, probably a secret, non-social, aspect to Yinkin. The cat-witches live outside of society, like shamans: they are the feral aspect of Yinkin.

So I think theist Yinkin is by far the most common or overt form of Yinkin worship, but I don't believe it to be all of the worship.

2 hours ago, Revilo Divad Of Dyoll said:

Not to disagree with the basic premise, but I believe that Poseidon traditionally rode a chariot drawn by Hippocampuses (hippocampi?). 

 

So did Manannan mac Lir (the chariot Scuabtuinne).

2 hours ago, alakoring said:

I got the Nine Lightbringers from Sandy Petersen, a post on the old Glorantha Digest if I recall correctly.

The Umathelans had been experimental subjects for the God Learners, so they sort of had to assemble their own Lightbringers without access to full pantheon.

The warrior woman (Phausia) therein looks like Yelorna/Sun Daughter, rather than Vinga.

In medieval legend (and in Italian dialects even today), Orc[h]i meant a kind of wild man or satyr.

15 hours ago, soltakss said:

Queen of Dagori Inkarth.

Derak the Dark Troll, one of the PCs in an old campaign, was eventually made King of Dagori Inkarth, which he was really pleased about, until he remembered that Dagori Inkarth was a Matriarchy ruled by a council of ancient UzUz, so he had no power but lots of people against him.

Being the favored consort (though there is no marriage per se) of an Uzuz would be the pinnacle of male Troll ambition (unless you're one of those nasty Zorak Zoran boyz).

13 minutes ago, metcalph said:

A possibility is to invert the relationship.  Thus instead of Knowers or Learners of God, you could have Known to God (implying someone powerful enough to be worthy of God's attention)*

*Linguistic device shamelessly stolen from Amadeus.

.  

I like this... see my attempt below.

1 hour ago, scott-martin said:

Not a "locateur natif" by any stretch but for GL en français I would ground what they did in savoir -- le gai savoir, with all its troubadour riddles and mysteries -- and so they might've been "Les Savants."

I think in French Les Divineurs or Les Savants-Divins? 'divin' = divine, but also divine in the sense of a priest.

36 minutes ago, Yelm's Light said:

Those are almost exclusively ancestors.  The ones that eat vanquished enemies are substantially rarer and shadier.

Like trolls. (pun intended)