jeffjerwin

looks like this got double posted by accident. Can an admin delete?

Thanks, Grievous.

Starting with Arkilia's tragedy...

1546:

Sarotar is killed by Arkilia's lovers and she is kidnapped in Esrolia.

Participating Homelands: Sartar and Esrolia. (Esrolia +5)

D20  Event

1-10 Your ancestor was not present at the kidnapping

11-17 Your ancestor knew Arkilia and/or Sarotar. Gain Speak (Other Language) +5% for the other culture.

18-20 Your ancestor was present at the kidnapping

The Kidnapping of Arkilia

D20   Result

1-10  Survived.

11-20 Your ancestor was slain in the fighting. Gain Hate (Esrolian) and Loyalty (Sartar) if Sartarite, or Loyalty (Esrolia) and +5% Intrigue if Esrolian, and +1d3% Reputation for both.

Note that I'm using 'ancestor' rather than specifying a particular degree of relationship. If the ancestor died here, she or he is presumably a great-grandparent.

Events to flesh out:

1539: Dragonewt Dream

1546: Sarotar dies: Arkilia's tragedy in Esrolia.

1550: Prince Saronil is killed rescuing his granddaughter.

c.1560 ??: Trollkiller War

1565: Jarolar is killed fighting the Tarshites.

1568: Yoristina, the Feathered Horse Queen known as 'Keeps the Children', dies. her daughter Verala Tor becomes queen.

1569: Lunar spirits slay Prince Jarosar.

Monrogh founds the Sun Dome County in Vanntar.

1575: Tarkalor marries Verala Tor

1579: Phargentes' funeral in Furthest.

So the RQ:G book has moved us into the 1620s. Great!

Of course some of us either want to fill in the gaps for an older character (the game assumes a birthdate around 1604) or play a story or even a prologue back in the classic era.

I propose we hash one out together.

A campaign set in c.1613, during Starbrow's Revolt, would require a birthdate c.1592... which means a parent born c.1565 and grandparent around c.1540.

Let's get started...

So the RQ:G book has moved us into the 1620s. Great!

Of course some of us either want to fill in the gaps for an older character (the game assumes a birthdate around 1604) or play a story or even a prologue back in the classic era.

I propose we hash one out together.

A campaign set in c.1613, during Starbrow's Revolt, would require a birthdate c.1592... which means a parent born c.1565 and grandparent around c.1540.

Let's get started...

So the RQ:G book has moved us into the 1620s. Great!

Of course some of us either want to fill in the gaps for an older character (the game assumes a birthdate around 1604) or play a story or even a prologue back in the classic era.

I propose we hash one out together.

A campaign set in c.1613, during Starbrow's Revolt, would require a birthdate c.1592... which means a parent born c.1565 and grandparent around c.1540.

Let's get started...

14 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Or shift Character Generation back.  PC's born in ~1597.  Can leave grandparents history as is.  Start parent's history with 1602 events and run up to 1613 with Starbrow's Rebellion.  PC's initiated in ~1612.  Start the PC's with Starbrow's Rebellion.  Use Year 1623 table for Years 1615-6 but replace "17–20 Fought in the Siege of Nochet (below)." with your choice of:  1) Nearly killed in battle between Lunars and rebels. Add +5% to Battle. Give yourself a distinctive scar. 2) Nearly killed or temporarily driven insane by Lunar magic. Gain Hate (Lunar Empire) and add +5% to Spirit Combat. 3) Nearly killed by rebel bandits. Gain Battle +5% and Hate (Rebels) 60%.  4) Nearly killed by Telmori raiders. Gain Hate (Telmori). 

I'm planning on starting a crowd-sourced timeline that runs a bit backward from 1582, so we can accommodate campaigns taking place in the teens. I'm adding a thread now...

The road may end and turn into a muddy path because no one could see the point of finishing it after Sartar passed.

Also, mud is a lot easier for webbed feet to navigate than boots and hoofs.

Hence a defensive measure?

Thank you Ian!

The Vingan's use of a horn here is thus made a little more significant, as is the dragonewt's dancing...

There's an interesting reddish-brown rock there on the ground. Glancing at my copy of Barbarian Adventures, we see there's a beaked dragonewt hiding behind it.

7 hours ago, jeffjerwin said:

K-or, G-or means 'terrible, angry Earth'. This is pretty established; it may be an elided compound word. Perhaps W-or, V-or could mean 'sweet, maiden Earth'

Orendana is 'Queen Earth', Ernalda as queen of the Gods... 

We should also note 'Zoria', goddess of Love in Fronela.

The 'Cup of Orin' was one of the marriage gifts given by Argrath to the Queen of Holay...

How old is the road from Tarsh to Pavis? c.820 or later?

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

Dragon Pass: Land of Doom introduces a strangely named tribe called the Orvantes, which has the same name form as the three Summer Tribes of the Vingkotlings (Orgovaltes, Koroltes, Vestantes). I am inclined tth o see Orvantes as a mis-spelling or mis-pronunciation of Orgovaltes.

Well, they were in the 'North Vale' of Hendrikiland (Garanvuli lands), though that did border on the Orgovaltes territories.

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

The music of water may be dripping, the rippling and burbling of animated water, the whooshing of waves.

Sea music: Sea-shells..., the conch-horn... the sounds of whales?

In terms of Or- meaning mountain, it's also true that basically mountains are fundamentally made of Earth (a different sort of Earth than the fertile lowlands, but also Earth at its most sublime and terrible). Hence it's possible that 'divine mountain' = Earth, World. In fact, the Spike was equated with the world/Earth at one point... So we may be looking at a fuzzy concept.

K-or, G-or means 'terrible, angry Earth'. This is pretty established; it may be an elided compound word. Perhaps W-or, V-or could mean 'sweet, maiden Earth'

Orendana is 'Queen Earth', Ernalda as queen of the Gods... 

GtG p.119 describes the temple in Snake Pipe Hollow as 'the womb of the Earth Mother' (err... it is in a cave at the end of a canyon we may note). This may be Gata, whose daughter is Ernalda later took up that status... Another of her daughters is Kero Fin, who is very close by. Note also that the BoHM describes the area east of Kero Fin as a part of Ernaldela, which makes sense mythically if it remained strongly tied to the Earth Rune, even though we might think more of Kethaela nowadays.

58 minutes ago, metcalph said:

What is said there is "They were hunter-gatherers led by the Hero Aram Ya Udram and worshiped Orlanth." while the Harandings are described on the same page as  "hunter-gatherer people who worshiped Orlanth and Ketha".  A fairly significant difference I think.

Whatever Goddess Aram worshipped in the Great Darkness has been subsumed by the worship of Gouger and his sacrifice to the Bloody Earth,

 

That's true.

This is pretty speculative, but I'm trying to construct a moderately plausible discussion of the non-Vingkotling peoples of Storm-Age Ginijji and vicinity. From a game perspective, the wyters of the Snake Pipe Dancer hero band partially derive from what remains of them.

5 minutes ago, metcalph said:

 

The mother of Gouger (Glorantha Bestiary p70)

Still, the Aramites are described as originally Orlanthi (GtG p.711). This would require that they did not assimilate the sow-goddess to an Earth divinity, but instead distinguished her from the other consorts of Orlanth... one of whom is actually identified as a pig goddess. (I think it improbable that Orlanth's consort would not be their totemic pig goddess) 

Note that this Earth Sow Goddess might be quite different in characteristics, worship, and symbolism than the goddess of the Harandings. Indeed, she may have Darkness associations from the start.

Just now, metcalph said:

We don't know where Orvano Hill is though.  

 

yes we do... it's in the Sartar Companion map of Northern Sartar. south of Chalkman Vale.

3 minutes ago, metcalph said:

She is?  The Bestiary p152 says nothing about Maran Gor and even denies that they are either pigs or dogs.

No.  The Aramites and the Harandings were and are separate tribes.  The Harandings lived in Pig Hollow in Kethaela while the Aramites lived in Dragon Pass.  

 

Pig-dogs, Arcane Lore, p.24. Specifically associated with Maran Gor and the Snake Pipe Hollow.

So who is the sow goddess that Aram worshipped? (Glorantha Sourcebook, p.130)

2 minutes ago, metcalph said:

The specific association is that the hollow (created during the great darkness) is named after the Snake-pipe.  Yet in the actual temple, there's little to no sign of any snakepipe associations.  Given that the Skull Ruins are not far from Rich Home, there's little reason to insist they must be seperate civilizations.

 

 

I think they're compatible, on second thought - note my reading of En-Ori as the 'The Ori', the queen of Orin Jistil/the Ornings.

If they are also the people who dwelt around Engoli Fort, then they were potters who had a now-vanished system of writing. Can they be identified with one of the orphaned peoples in the Clan Questionnaire?

In Tibet, the mountain/landscape goddess is the Diamond-Sow Goddess, Vajravārāhī, who is almost always depicted dancing (or engaged in dance adjacent erotic activities).

The sow-headed Hindu goddess Varahi, who is her equivalent, is the head of the Matrikis, a column of dancing goddesses, slaughterers of demons...

Also, Orlanth the dragonslayer is called Orvanshagor. Which appears to include the same root as Orvano... The Orvano Hills was where Voria was traded to Turim the Giant in one of the 'Three Evil Trades' by 'the gods' (she seems to have been rescued however) (as Voria was born at the Dawn this story is clearly corrupt). This is oddly similar to the giant Aedin's marriage to the goddess of joy as payment for building Aedin's Wall (another name for the Dragonspine). We all know giants come from the Rockwoods, so the meeting place makes sense...

I think 'Orvan-' contains the same root as Or, Orin, and Or-lanth, and denotes his status as consort of Ora / [V]Oria, one of the prototypes of the Earth Queen Ernalda. As Orlanth in part became king of the gods by wedding the Earth Queen (rather than the other way around) we can rightly refer to him as 'Earth's Consort' as one of his primary titles.

As to what this has to do with music and dancing, well, weddings are a major excuse for parties. The wedding of Earth and Air is the proper moment for the combination of percussive music (Earth) and wind instruments/singing (Air).

Also, there's the interesting fact that Baran, founder of the short-lived tribe that settled Alda-chur before the Dragonkill, called his citadel 'Baran Or'. I think it possible this was a fusion of the remnant people of the area - the 'Or' or 'Orin' with his own new clan (Baraning). If so, 'Jistil' might mean 'market', sacred meeting point, and the wyter - possible a megalith - may have been transported to the junction of the Creek and Engizzi by the Second Council...

Note Enori could be En-Ori, 'the Ori'.

There's also the possibility of connecting the Snake Pipe Dancers with a mystic dance ritual revived from the Ori/n people.

Now, one of the reasons I'm exploring this is because I'm taking notes for the Puppeteers, who gather at Skull Ruins along with a few other sites all in the central or northeastern part of Dragon Pass, presumably for their High Holy Day...

The other sites are the Falling Ruins, a site in the Stinking Forest in the Spider Vale [Aramite], the Smoking Ruins, and Too Far [former Aramite territory]. These overlap with the Aramite and the Far Point areas, along with the Dragonspine proper.

I think Maran Gor, before she was a violent deity [i.e., before Orlanth slew Stone Dragon, if my reconstruction is at all good], might be linked to a Dancing Cult.

The Puppeeteers are a Green Age/Golden Age cult, I think, so they might actually worship Maran[a] as the girl-dancer rather than the goddess of earthquakes. Maran Gor is also connected with 'pig-dogs' and her sister is the Sow-goddess, Entrula-Ernalda, the Dawn Age goddess of the Aramites. Viz. [M]aran, Aram, and the goddess Orane, Orvano [viz. the Voria site next to the Bone Hills].

Now, if Baroshi is 'barley-man' his culture was probably originally agricultural, though the Aramites might have abandoned agriculture during the Great Darkness. 

Hence the Puppeteers might be a distant cousin-culture of the Tusk Riders in my reconstruction... as might be the original people of Enori, whose consort was the Vingkotling Varazi...

It's interesting to note that according to the BoHM, Donandar defended the Vingkotlings (around Kero Fin) from Kyger Litor [issuing, implicitly, from the Castle of Lead] by distracting her with music. I think this would be localized in the Skull Ruins area. Trolls do frequent it for drumming and 'laughing'...

59 minutes ago, Leingod said:

Let me try something smaller. It's said that the remaining Elmali in Sartar claim that the Yelmalians have been deceived by the Teller of Lies. Could an Elmali also make the claim that the Yelmalians have been blinded by their own Light, the way Elmal once was?

Palangio the Iron Vrok, the great Yelmalian hero, was the warlord and enforcer of Nysalor...

Edit: I accidentally deleted this post. I blame Eurmal... Damn you Trickster!

I referred in the original post to Orin Jistil being a name related to Jisteel, downstream...

I was inclined to agree with Jajagapa's association of the On Jorri with Orin Jistil - or I was, until the similarity to the Tawari bull hsunchen became apparent. (- by that I mean the Enjoralini ~ On Jorri)

Orin Jistil as Skull Ruins might be associated with a Earth cult as Aroka is connected with a possible animist-draconic Water Cult nearby. The first Dragonslaying is also nearby... at Dragonspine. All in all, Orlanth is described as killing rival 'draconic' powers. Stone Dragon was a suitor for his mother, who Orlanth possibly slew as a semi-Oedipal act of rebellion.

I speculated on the true geography being associated with the animists of Valon.

I really wish I could remember the rest of what I wrote.

I think the Ginijji civilization of Rich Home is distinct from Orin Jistil/Skull Ruins, as it is specifically associated with the Snake Pipe. That area, interestingly, is connected with Maran Gor, the mother of the pseudo-draconic dinosaurs, who, by a bit of a stretch, might be seen as the children of Maran with the Stone Dragon, Drathdraw...

I have discovered this EWF and earlier city seems to have three distinct canonical locations:

In WF 15 it is shown both at the confluence of the Creek and the Stream and described as being Delecti's Isle.

In the GtG in the Second Council map it is the Skull Ruins.

In KoS it seems to agree with the map in WF 15 but not with Delecti's Ruins...

(All this to figure out what the Skull Ruins' history was). 

I realize that real world city names sometimes migrate, and that this could have happened, particularly if the wyter was attached to something moveable. Still...

Regarding the Skull Ruins, it appears from the old HeroWars books that it was created during the Storm Age after Orlanth slew the Stone Dragon, which was courting his mother. It is one of the five locations associated with the Puppeteer Troop in Dragon Pass. The ruins are built on top of the skull... The trolls seem to find the ruins funny for some reason.

The fact that an otherwise unknown Earth culture was associated with Engoli Fort, a little north of it (WF 15) and shards with indecipherable writing were found in the area near the Fort suggests to me that an extinct people lived here. It's so close to the Storm steadings around Kero Fin, however, that I would think they would be a refugee people adopted during the Storm/Darkness Ages and later wiped out or assimilated.

Any theories or facts I'm missing...?

Edit: It also is not an area claimed by a Vingkotling or Heortling tribe in the Second Age period - it's a neutral area.