badcat

Check. Weird, now that you mention Pendragon, I loved King Arthur when I was growing up but never liked the rpg. It just never looked like a game I would enjoy playing, or it never seemed like any sort of cousin to BRP... My own criteria for defining BRP was stated back at the beginning of this thread, anyway. Short and sweet.

Or games in general. I once read somewhere that a lot of the fantasy and science fiction writers of the 30s+ started out playing wargames (what we call miniatures now) together on someones' living room floor in New York during the Depression...like L. Sprague de Camp, Fletcher Pratt, Leigh Brackett, Poul Anderson, I don't remember who all.

Just so you know, I did run 3.0 when it first came out. We got to 5th level and I found I could not handle it, and at that point no one else in the group wanted to try. Before all the splat books started showing up even. That was one thing, because tastes and abilities vary. But when I starting finding nothing but 3.5 available around here, well grrrrr....but I do live 10 miles from WOTC central. As for an upgrade of BRP, my views are already on record, here and elsewhere. I firmly believe every game has a sweet spot, and even Elric! went a little past it for BRP, already. My own sweet spot is Stormbringer 1-3 enhanced a little with Elric! and Magic World. I have run many campaigns with that combo, and with the same core group for a long time before we finally broke up (in between trying about every other rpg that came out for a long time, I can't even remember them all). I am perfectly happy with the description of the book as presented by Jason Durall and Chaosium so far, and really see no need for significant upgrading. Way too much could get lost or go wrong. If it ain't broke, don't fix it, I say.:cool: And I find the idea of outdated games to be just pointless. I mean, look at chess...even though it's a different animal, I know, but on some level a game is a game. But if you change it it becomes a different, and usually inferior, game. You said 3.0 was an improvement over 2e, but to my mind 2e (before ITS splat books) was more fun...and that is more important to me than superior design. To me and many others 3.0/3.5 has simply never felt like D&D, or any fun rpg I have experience with. And that makes it definitely inferior to my mind. BRP is fun, as it is, and I don't want to lose that even though I very, very rarely get to play it these days. Official support for it, anewly printed version, means I might get to play my favorite rpg again, and officially sanctioned at that. Glad to have you on this forum, by the way, and thanks for listening and not inferring my bad taste and stupidity as so often has happened at other sites, like rpg.net.

True enough. I remember when I 'found' RQ2 in 1981, it was like lights coming on. I was in an AD&D group, and immediately wanted to jump to the new game. Some of the group split and we started playing the Big Rubble, Sun Country, Griffon Mountain, etc.; some stayed with the AD&D. My point here is that our group split almost exactly 50/50. And all that happened was that we looked at RQ2...and another local group was starting CoC about that time. So I sometimes wonder what might have happened if Chaosium had been more aggressive. I know some inside things occurred to help derail the company somewhat too, but I really think the potential was there for it to have become the spearhead rpg around that period.

Lord Twig. D&D 3.0 was not an improvement on 1 and 2 in enough of the correct ways. From my perspective only, the basic resolution, saves, and skill system were improvements; the feats, prestige classes, multiclassing system, interwoven and interdependent nature of the rules ruined it. I would play and maybe run AD&D 2nd edition or Basic D&D, but I won't run or play 3.0+. I find it to be a bloated unplayable mess. That's just me, and by itself would not account for my extreme dislike of the game. What causes that is the fact that 90%+ of the gamers around here will not consider anything else. THAT yanks my chain, especially since I don't think the game comes even close to what I consider a fun experience. That's just the way it is. HERO is great if you like super detailed, do-it-yourself erector set sorts of rpgs. GURPS is OK if you like super detailed character generation and everything handed to you in a pre-digested sort of way. All in my own humble opinion...and remember, you asked. Now back to our regularly scheduled BRP goodness...which I can now indulge again, here in this wonderful new BRP site.

That's OK. I seem to be outvoted on that one for sure.

Isn't that the guy that wrote the Praxis trilogy? Good sci fi writer.

I don't see as how that was bashing Mongoose. This forum is more or less for supporting BRP, and thus Chaosium, though. IMO. It was just a statement of fact. If anyone around here was going to bash Mongoose I would be a more likely candidate, but I don't care enough to bother, really. I am more interested in doing what I can to support BRP, which I consider very, very superior to MRQ.:cool: Thanks for letting us know about 'Blood of Orlanth'.

Actually I agree with most of it, but I'll keep you guessing as to what I don't.

You're heeeeeerrrrrrrreeeeee. This is once-andakitty. Welcome, even if I can't agree with some of that...

I honestly don't know. I think there was some pretty immediate conversion to HeroQuest, but I don't frequent the Mongoose forum any more, so I couldn't say what sort of activities have been going on lately. A number of the guys over there were definitely not happy with many of the rules changes in MRQ, less so than me. And there were quite a few old RQ fans posting, so probably. Some of them have shown up at this forum, but of that lot only me and Enpeze have posted much here so far. Assuming Rurik is still around he could probably answer your question accurately. If I liked Glorantha I would be likely to convert it, or at least houserule much of the MRQ material away...it is quite similar, and does appear to be doing fairly well in spite of the business model (oodles of thin and not cheap hardcover rulebooks). Why don't you go over to the Mongoose forum and check it out?

You certainly have a point about MRQ and Glorantha. Last yearwhen I was keeping up with the Mongoose forums, just before they published either one, by far the most criticism and resistance was leveled at MRQ itself and the most excitement and acceptance was directed at Second Age Glorantha. Remember that, Enpeze?

Lack of support is a big part of it. And many people do want a game where they can slay rats with +4 swords. But there is more to it. A couple of points... Part of the problem isn't what Chaosium didn't do as much as what Chaosium isn't as good at doing. Marketing. A big part of the problem is simply that the Chaosium guys were never as good at getting the word about their game out there and letting people know about it as the TSR or WOTC guys have proven to be. Also, you can use BRP to create the kind of slay-and-loot games that our +4 sword owners crave...there are a variety of official and houserules that allow the creation of nearly invulnerable PCs. Think about it, Enpeze. In Stormbringer 1-3 you could summon a Demon of Protection with 75 armor points. Thats even better than 75 hit points, because you have to hit with 75 points or better to even hurt the wearer!:eek: And there are other ways. I ran a D&D style game more than once using a pastiche of Magic World and Stormbringer, and it was hack, slay, and loot, just like D&D but with the more playable BRP percentile system. I got my wife into rpgs that way, and she wouldn't even try D&D. Took one look at the mechanics and backed right out, then took to the BRP style 'D&D' like a duck to water. It is mostly the lack of support and lack (or neglect) of marketing skill. As Charles Green noted, around 1981 if Chaosium had played their cards right WoW could have been expanded and become the first 'universal' rpg instead of GURPS...and replaced AD&D as the base line rpg with a more playable, coherent, and understandable game system. It also occurs to me that if certain people, like Dave Hargrave, had latched on to RQ or Stormbringer as their original system, the creativity they brought to the hobby could have boosted BRP style systems instead of class and level ones. All these things contributed.

On that we can all agree, I think.

I don't know of one game that was improved when it was 'overhauled'. Think about it and then name one. Usually they lose whatever appeal they had and become unwieldy. GURPS, HERO, D&D; all became bloated monsters and accountants' nightmares. BRP is fine as it is, GURPS was better when it was TFT (and up through 3rd ed.), HERO was better when it was Fantasy Hero, D&D was better (except for the basic resolution) in earlier incarnations. And look at MRQ. 'Simple' isn't necessarily 'best', what I am saying is that frequently in 'improving' a game that special 'something' gets lost. When you have something good it is sometimes better to just let it be and accept whatever warts it has...most of the time, in my experience.

A little known game from the early nineties called 'Fifth Cycle'. No credits, but it has quite a bit in common with RQ.

Man, that is why I am so excited about this. If this is basically the SB5/Elric! game system with bells and whistles, it has all those options and more! Just go to Noble Knight and buy a copy of Elric! or Stormbringer 5. You will find an elegant, fast, realistic combat system that is at least as good as the ones you named...and when all the other options from BRP games such as Ringworld, RQ, etc. are available right next to those core rules, well... Yes, you can use a flurry of blows, feint, riposte, shield rush, close, volley fire, two weapons, and everything else I can think of. It is designed so that the dodge and parry are integrated, depending on the needs of the moment. It is a game system that has been with us since 1993, and some have claimed that it is the penultimate development of BRP combat. While it does use variable armor, DEX rank only, and major wound level instead of hit locations, those are things that could be added without breaking anything. And that is what this book is all about. You are not heretical or any such thing. You have a right to say what you think, even if I disagree with you...and vice versa. Or anybody else. But what you want may already exist. Have a look. Meanwhile, if you want to know more, by all means ask.

Sounds like a good analysis, Enpeze. Jarulf, I was just kidding around about the contest and all. It would just be to much like WOTC. I really think rpgs are much better when done by non-business professionals. Marketing makes the world go 'round, but it seems to me that those who are good at it are not so good at making games/settings that I enjoy. I really think Chaosium is on track right now, and I sincerely hope they don't get too ambitious and blow a good thing. I hope they continue their slow pace and keep putting out things slowly and carefully, and don't go the route so many others have. And I hope this new book is just what they say on their site...a collection of BRP rules from all the various games collected together, and NOT a significant change in those rules. And I hope it supports them enough so that they can keep putting out worthwhile material, not piles of splats and settings no one will buy. Which would almost certainly break them.

And I think you are dead wrong.

Point.:cool:

Beats me. Read the BRP news bit on their site, though. They have sold CoC in virtually the same form for over quarter century now, but hey, I don't KNOW...I'm just speculating based on Chaosiums historical and present habits. Me, I'll probably buy two or three copies and then update with another whenever a new printing comes out, just like I have with CoC. I suppose the best scenario for us would be that it sells like hot cakes, becomes the new rpg rage, Chaosium is suddenly flush, buys up Conan, Tekumel, etc., starts spitting out new supplements by the dozen, has a contest for settings which I win and the setting is successful, everybody is happy and buys lots of copies of THAT, and a new golden age ensues for rpgs.:eek:

Sometimes a setting with moderate changes while you play can work fine, witness Tekumel. I don't really think having a setting or not is going to make or break this new BRP book, however. Chaosium may well not have any setting plans in the works at all (and if they do they tend to take years to come to fruition), and the blurb on their site emphasizes homebrew settings and adapting ones' favorite book or film anyway. That's fine with me. Glorantha always bugged me, the Young Kingdoms were too grim (talk about big wars and massive changes, and a lot of the best of it came from the game designers anyway), Hawkmoon didn't make sense (Moorcock was too tongue-in-cheek with it), Elfquest too comic-bookish, I am not a Ringworld fan, etc. So I will be just ecstatic to have all the BRP rules material without any setting material or indeed a tailored setting of some sort. Nobody knows what I like as well as I do, after all. I don't know where to start...Deathworld? Tekumel? Atlantis? Dragaera? Hyboria? Eluviel?

Judging from the past quarter century, I would say Chaosium is very good at focusing on just one setting. You know what I would like to see put into rpg format? One of the old space opera settings from the 50s and 60s...Retief, Stainless Steel Rat, Deathworld. Or more recently, Legion of the Damned. One of the gonzo sci fi series, get off the Star Wars kick (not that there is any danger of THAT). Maybe Steve Brust has just been waiting for Chaosium to get on its feet.:)But I doubt it.

But seriously...some settings that seem to be in semi-limbo that BRP would do serious justice to. Fading Suns, Tekumel, Space 1889. Dark Conspiracy, though that would be awfully close to CoC in flavor. A generic sci fi setting, ala Space Opera, maybe Space Opera now that I think about it. Any number of fantasy settings that have not been used, like Nifft the Lean or Coramonde. Jack Vance's Lyonesse, the Carolingian Cycle (again). A generic Rome setting, maybe with sci fi elements like some of David Drakes' stuff. Kane. Some of Michael Stackpole's fiction would make fine rpg settings, like Fortress Draconis (actually you could even fit superpowers into that one). There are all sorts of things.

What, publishing the best game system ain't enough for ya?:eek: