Sir_Godspeed

I hope this suggestion isn't in poor taste, but given that the Orlanthi are a bunch with moral values that aren't always palatable to us (ie. slavery, public murder, occasional infanticide), it is possible that they separate what one might call "assault rape" from other forms of what is commonly now considered sexual assult in real life, ie. engaging in sexual activities with someone who is not conscious, or under the influence of something that makes them unable to consent.

The term "seduction" has always had a hazy semantic field, ranging from simply being very charming, to deceiving someone or giving someone false promises and the like. Zeus changing shapes to women's husbands to have sex with them comes to mind. 

Again, in the courts of a lot of countries in the real world, these things would absolutely be considered sexual assault or rape (and I'd certainly would), but it might be that the Orlanthi don't view it like that. Taking the advantage of someone who is drunk might be conceived differently. Presumably still badly, but maybe not Chaotically. I don't know. 

There's also the possibility that this thing is contextually sensitive. Taking advantage of an unconscious or drunk person normally? Horrible to Orlanthi. Doing the same to a cosmic force that almost just murdered the entire cosmos? They'll just let that slide.

---------

I suppose I'd like to imagine that BOTH Eurmal and Babeester got wasted, and then sorta just hooked up because they were suddenly in the mood (with probably different reactions afterwards), but I realize this is probably not quite what the texts intends.

The main elemental sequence as envisioned by Malkioni thought, and in some theistic theogonies, is one of gradual "condensation" and/or "concretization" (for lack of better terms). Amassing from Chaos/Void, we have Darkness, which further "condences" to the material Sea, which "condences" to the solid Earth. 

This brings up the awkward position of Fire/Sky in the process, however. One might posit that Sky springs from Earth in this lineage, which is valid, but there is another possibility. 

Fire does not actually follow the main sequence, but rather is a by-product of the overall condensation process. When the matter-less and penetrative qualities of Darkness get excluded from Sea and Earth more and more, these somehow form their own element, an expansive one known as Fire or Sky. 

While Sky might seem as the opposite of Darkness, by the logic of this theory, it is rather more of a refinement of certain qualities already present in Darkness, but filtered away from its other descendants.

This goes some way to explain why Sky is often considered a somewhat aloof or transcedent element, because its origin is effectively the opposite of that of Water and Earth. 

Moreover, this also sheds some light (no pun intended) on the extreme potential of Fire-Earth interaction (as they're the respective endpoint refinement of opposing qualities found in primordial Darkness), which resulted in the cosmos-shaking birth of Umath and the creation of the first (and possibly only) "heteroform" element, Air. 

More consideration is needed. 

1 hour ago, scott-martin said:

Where are the gorgons?

Dark Earth (Gor), surely?
 

Maran Gor surely seems like the kind of incarnation of Earth who was around to knock in heads while Ernalda was asleep. She's not exactly a Bijiif character, but close enough. And of course Babeester's defining trait is that she was literally born from the dormant body of Ernalda to stand watch over her.

Gorgorma is an interesting perpendicular of Babeester, Maran and arguably TKT?

Welp, now I'm imagining Gorites bashing down starving rioting peasants while the Asrelian priestess look down form atop their granary-temples. Oof.

Considering that land ownership in Orlanthi culture, as per Jeff's comments, is ultimately tied into the Earth temple institutions (being the worldly manifestation of Earth sovereignty, one assumes), I think we're also overlooking the less "noble" and more prosaic role of Babeester Gorites as, well, muscle for the economic interests of said temples. Failure to pay tribute, failure to deal fairly with temple priestesses, failure to honor contracts, etc. are all effectively "violations" of the Earth. I mean, boiling feminine interests down to bodily autonomy is a bit reductive. Orlanthi women have extensive political and economic interests (and traditional entitlements), and Gorites are a part of that, I can only assume.

EDIT: Seems Qizilbashwoman kinda said the same thing.

11 hours ago, Eff said:

I think my default assumption is that Babs Gor cultists are obliged to avoid Life-related entanglements with other people, so preferably casual sex. Or ritualistic invocations of the casualness of the relationship. Ceremonially refusing to cuddle afterwards, growling "It's not that I like you or anything", that sort of thing. But my Gloranthas are laugh-a-minute. 

The idea of a tsundere Babeester Gor and her off-and-on dumbass Eurmali lover is hilarious and kinda endearing.

10 minutes ago, Jeff said:

It is wrong. Ernaldela is the land of Ernalda - which happens to coincide with the lands south of Kero Fin down to the Spike. Saird is north of there. But I am certain First Age Dara Happans assumed Ernalda comes from Saird.

This makes sense.

(Unless you get a bit conspiratorial and argue that Ernaldela is a post-Dawn name attributed to a region that previously carried another name HOWEVER I will refrain from doing this as I'm sure you get enough obstinate folks in the Elmal thread. 😄)

Wasn't there something about how the name "Ernalda" originated from Saird?

Do we have any specific Rune on how the humanoid Aldryami came to be? Either from the perspective of elves or other groups? Do Aldryami recognize Grandfather Mortal as an entity, or is it a more abstracted thing?

19 minutes ago, Eff said:

Another way of putting it is that everything descended from Subere is a suberi, or a subaru, so "dehori" is necessary as a cladistic term to separate out the children of Dehore+Subere from the children of Subere+everyone else. Now, everything comes from darkness, so everyone is a suberi, or a subaru, and that is why the Uz adoption rites work.

While that makes sense, I should probably add that Subere isn't actually considered the ancestress of most troll gods or trolls, at least according to the Sourcebook's genealogy. That genealogy is of God Learner origin, so people'll have to specify how it deviates, if anything, from Uz beliefs. 

30 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

Presumably because Subere is essentially an abstraction. She's just "Darkness", which like Earth is conceived of as primarily female, but is about as anthropomorphic as Gaia. You don't really belong to a Gaia cult either, these are the origin of the associated rune. Worship belongs to what the God Learners considered "hybrid" deities; that is to say, [ELEMENT] + [FORM, CONDITION, POWER]. (Some deities have only two total, some have more, and naturally it depends on which ruleset you are using - HeroQuest (deprecated) has ruling elemental deities get doubled ELEMENT forms.)

 

Jumping off from the above point, I'm wondering if people here are mixing Subere together with Nakala? The latter who is considered primal darkness. 

I have no issue with them being the same, or Subere being a fraction of the former or whatever, but at least the Sourcebook separates them explicitly.

8 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Lieutenant Columbo was an Illuminate Riddler. "Just one more thing..." is a traditional Nysalorean phrase.

Woops, just realized I posted this in your heretical gloranthas and not the dumbest theory thread. Oh well, works both places!

Lieutenant Columbo was an Illuminate Riddler. "Just one more thing..." is a traditional Nysalorean phrase.

The Sourcebook seems to say that she mothered the Dehori with Dehore (makes you wonder why they're not called the Suberi, but that's another issue). Is there a myth about this? Probably not, but there could be. Perhaps the Dehori themselves have myths.

EDIT: Although, it's worth keeping in mind that the Sourcebook genealogies are based on God Learner theories. I'm guessing this point doesn't deviate too much from indigenous Uz beliefs though.

Kinda satisfied that my (speculative) ideas about life in Alkoth are also where Jeff is going.

1 hour ago, simonh said:

Gbaji is a mask of Eurmal.

That is almost certainly someone's belief in-universe.

19 minutes ago, Baron Wulfraed said:

Since sound requires the transmission of waves in some media (usually air), it is difficult to envision it as anything Rune related.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by this, but if "cold" and "dark" can be runes (even though in RW physics these aren't anything at all), I'm sure we'll figure something out. 

I've been considering making up a deity of sound. Either sound as an element in itself, or maybe as a condition rune or something, I don't really pay too much attention to the runes, tbh. 

The question would be where they come into being (much like air, sound may have always been around, just not personified). My initial thought was to have them spawn off Umath's birth roar. But then sound would have been important in the Underworld, I'm guessing, so maybe that's their true origin. Maybe Umath pulled them up from the Underworld? 

As for worldly impact... A deity involved in the eventual creation of spoken language, and song and music, as well as having a hand in thunderclaps and animals roars and wave crashing, and whatnot. Sort of a sideline-yet-everywhere kinda deity-archetype, maybe a bit like the Talking God or the Knowing God, or the White Lady, etc. 

Also a fun way to introduce some sound-based shenanigans from the Elder Scrolls (tonal architecture, thu'um, etc.)

My first instinct when looking at the pic was that the three upper left deities where the three primordial Sea deities. Framanthe, Daliath and Sramak. However, this doesn't really seem to fit with how they are portrayed elsewhere.

2 hours ago, FungusColombicus said:

I just wonder what is the fixation of the lunars with eels... eels aparently are important for the empire since a lot of the personalities are eels... a little fishy if you ask me...

Idea:
"Eel" means something like "seed" or "fruit" in a procreative way.
Berneel Ashagern is the serpent that carries Yelm's seed (his virility, his fecundity).

Eel-Ariash is the "Seed" (ie. descendants) of Ariash.

(I don't think this actually works out, but still)

41 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

no, they are interesting in the wrong way

And also, Alkor was clearly green because the land was lush from slash-and-burn crops, because Shargath was originally the god of slash-and-burn agriculture who is now just a mortuary cult because that's deprecated tech

uh, so where do unicorns come from? because, like, griffons don't have horns.

don't say "lesbians mount their dildos on their horses to confuse stupid Praxians" because I'll mock you

Hm, okay, not really dildos, but still feel free to make fun of me:

Female-centric horse-riding Celestial society defeats and emasculates (Storm?) barbarian invaders, symbolically adding their horns to their mounts. 

Some less phallic ideas: 

- Horse riding Celestial society quests to get herd beasts accepted by Eirithia. Horns are part of the result (not like horns are even inherently masculine in most horned mammals anyway).

- Horse riding Celestial society preserves the radiance of stars in a single ray, turning it into a shimmering horn.

I think the last one is my favorite, tbh.

1 hour ago, UnlikelyLass said:

Two quick dumb theories.

#1: The Godtime and Gods are orthogonal to the “real” world of the Lozenge.  The “Godtime” myths everybody knows and believes *creates* an echo of those characters and events in the orthogonal Godtime world which everybody knows of and worships as Gods.  At the same time, the historical events which lead to the myths of Godtime are just another one of the history cycles, and there were more before it that “we” in the Third Age just don’t know about.

#2: The historical cycle — slowly developing civilization leading to an outcast group creating a “new god” which in turn causes a collapse of civilization and mass warfare and death — is an actual destruction and recreation of the world.  And every time the universe gets destroyed and rebuilt, slightly less of it comes back, so the world is slowly winding down.  It will just take many repetitions before the destruction is complete.

Qwizil is going to be so disappointed, none of these are dumb enough!

Any idea if Shargash would still have been Red in the Golden Age, or whether he would have been Green before he went to the underworld? Or does he already transition to Red before Yelm dies, during the confrontation with Umath? 

Some of y'all might actually know this, I don't have access to GRoY right now.

2 hours ago, Eff said:

We all know that there are seven colors in the rainbow.

This is an arbitrary distinction made in the RW by one specific culture though, so no real reason that it would be like that in Glorantha (I am particularly thinking of the gotta-make-it-to-seven division of the red-blue intermediate into violet AND indigo.) But then the writers are obviously from this RW culture, so it might still apply.


On the note of Shargash bridling Kargzant:
I have a pet theory (call it dumb) that Shargash is associated with the evening red, the dying of the sun. "Bridled by Shargash" could then be a poetic way (or mythic way) of explaining that Kargzant descended one day off the sunpath, and then rose the next on the sunpath. 

Farfetched? Well, yeah, but that's this thread.

This is all supposing that a) Belintar's perspective/recollection is representative of at least some Aldryami's worldview, and b) the text is not conceptually outdated.