Sir_Godspeed

Speaking of a shallow sea, and pardon the tangent, but do we know if Castle Blue will ever reappear? I seem to recall reading something about it being gone forever, but that's a bit of a bummer if true, Charmain is an intriguing figure. 

Not sure if they (and the larger Oroninae-complex of blue people) have anything to do with the Blue Moon though, as opposed to just water in a more generic sense.

I am WOEFULLY inadequate in my understanding of what exactly happens in the Lunar Empire after a certain point. It seems super weird that Phargentes leads a MASSIVE trek though the entire Janubian drainage basin, while the imperial support system back home is basically on fire or basically post-apocalyptic. But the thing is, I don't even know when exactly the Monster Empire occurs and when the Red Moon is pulled down, so it's all a soup in my mind.

The War of Stupidity against Ignorance is part of the Hero Wars, right? If so, do we know when/if it ends within the timeline?

3 hours ago, Darius West said:

🙂 Tell that to the thrall.  Feed them the line about Ana Gor and a better afterlife.  They might be gullible enough to believe you. 

Okay, but in the context of Glorantha, this is not an unreasonable claim, given that visiting the afterlife/underworld is totally a thing that people can do.

I do agree that the Orlanthi seems to mostly have moved away from human sacrifices most of the time, though.

Okay, disclaimer, I'm going to mention something related to Islam, please don't make this weird.

I've been tempted to compare Rokarism with the Wahhabist Salafi movement, not so much due to the theology (although they share the "trimming away supposedly unnecessary additions" approach) but more in that it's a case of a specific religious/philosophical movement allying itself with a specific aristocratic dynasty in order to benefit from each other. 

Secondly, it's a little bit tempting to tie some comparisons to the Islamic Revolution in Iran, in the sense that it's a reactionary movement that seeks to put the religious scholars (ulema and Zzaburi, respectively) back in control of things. Obviously, the social contexts are VASTLY different (Rokar probably didn't lead a populist movement, unless he saw rabid mobs of dronar iconoclasts as useful), as are the results, but given mentions of religious police and such it's a comparison that is tantalizingly adjacent. 

We should keep in mind, however, that unlike the above movements, as well as the Protestant ones, Rokarism is perfectly fine with earthly sensuality and sensory excess. This is an interesting sticking point. Rokar's program is not one of intense, ongoing personal self-scrutiny meant to elevate the soul before the divine, his is a lot more collectively-minded. Maintain caste rules. This will ensure the survival and prosperity of society. That seems to be it, basically. The sacrifices this entails for the individual will be rewarded through Solace. This is not a matter of intense faith, but abiding laws ("sola lex", basically) . Therefore, Rokarism does not really require you to believe. It merely requires that you obey. Very much the opposite of Martin Luther or Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab.

Similarly to the the two above posts, I've also suggested an allegory for dragonewt lives.

In the linked thread in my first post, I compared dragonewt lives to procedurally ("randomly") generated roguelike games. Those are games where you are EXPECTED to fail and die, but every time you do so, you advance a little in terms of personal power and skill. However, the game map is recreated completely differently each time, so you have to figure out everything again. I added the caveat that in the Dragonewt version, it might not just be the game map that's different, but the very victory conditions and game mechanics that change as well, and they're unknown. 

So a dragonewt has lived many lives, sought many mysteries, and even if they gained some great knowledge in a past life, that knowledge or insight or skill might be completely redundant or irrelevant now. In fact, it might be a hindrance, and they might try to unlearn it. 

This is all fine, of course, the challenge lies in actualizing it into tabletop gameplay. Suggestions for rolling up goals or limitations or whatever at regular intervals, as someone suggested above, might be good. 

But still, a PC has to have some core of stability, I think? Otherwise it sounds like a pain to play with.

3 hours ago, Joerg said:

"Too many" is different from "none". The Dragon Pass dragonewts "survived in weakness" by joining forces with the humans and Elder Races of the Vingkotling region, as opposed to the dragonewts of Kralorela who "survived in strength" as subjects of the Kralori dragon emperors who kept being overcome by Sekever.

 

3 hours ago, Joerg said:

Somehow, the Kralori dragonewts persist throughout Shang-Hsa's reign as False Dragon Emperor, which either means that Shang-Hsa did something not quite wrong, or that the role of the Kralori emperor in Kralori dragonewt society is overrated. The False Dragon Ring is finally deposed in 1054, twelve years after the Fall of the EWF dragonspeakers in the mass utuma.

 

My take on this is basically that the dragonewts set up (draconic) Kralorela as a protective buffer state for their nests (through Godunya, who is also effectively a dragon.). As long as the nests remain safe, there's no real reason to intervene.

I could swear there was a thread on this exact thing not too long ago, but I couldn't quite find it. Here's a couple of other ones:
 

EDIT: Actually, I think it was this one:
 

It's a literal territorialization of divine power (and thus, imperial claims and control), so several of the meanings can apply. 

13 hours ago, Eff said:

Granted, I'm still very unsure what the Blood Sun is at the moment. There's certainly some kind of connection there with the Red Moon, but is it an Annilla analogue, a piece of the dead Turning Sun that still remains present in the world, or is it a kind of parasite, or is it simply Natha in drag? 

The weird thing about the Blood Sun is that, it doesn't so much refer to the celestial object as it refers to a specific phenomenon that occurs during certain sacrificial rituals. 

It's entirely possible that there is a shift from the Blood Sun being a secret part of the sun revealed through human sacrifice - to being associated with the Red Moon. The Yellow Calendar seems to imply this, at least, and, well, there's the whole color thing. 

On the other hand, I've always been tempted to associate the Blood Sun with Shargash/Tolat. Granted, he has his own planet, but it does sometimes seem like all the celestial children of the Sun (Yelm or pre-Yelm), kinda has a "stake" in the sun as a symbol/object (including the moon, of course), and Shargash being the bloody, red aspect of it seems sensible. It would also fit with it being a darkness entity, aside from Natha as you mention, few celestial deities can pull that off. 

Whether any of these are compatible with the Vithelan Sky Tyrant, I'm not sure, though Shargash might once again fit with something that ended the Demigods Cycle and started the Human Cycle (much as he, in Pelorian reckoning, murdered the entire world to (presumably) start it anew).

But really, it's entirely possible that the "Blood Sun" is in itself not so much a deity as a kind of mantle or process that can be applied to several different things, I don't know.

This might be better fodder for another thread, but it does raise an interesting issue: how do you confidently edit away parts of a book that was directly revealed by miracle? Did Rokar need to develop a theoretical framework that discredited the self-writing miracle? Did he stick to the miracle, but attritubed certain parts to later additions by Jrustelans? Is there any writing on this?

1 hour ago, d(sqrt(-1)) said:

I know Duck Point and Nochet but I didn't know the others were puns - what are they?

Hungry Jack's is the Australian Burger King.

Nochet comes from Greg "not yet" knowing the name of the big city in Esrolia. 

"The Desert of Prax" is directly lifted from a Dr. Zeuss story. 

Not sure about the others.

This is a bit prejudiced of course, but the fact that the cattle skull is made of metal gives me more theist than shaman vibes.

9 hours ago, g33k said:

The thing is ...  I think a weird/wacky vibe is *essential* to portray the Lunar capitol correctly.  It is a strange, strange place.

Now, maybe RGtG overplays that hand; or ignores some or the more serious, tragic, and horrific elements of the place (for the record, I think those TOO are essential).  But, as noted, we have the Sourcebook for that stuff, and the Guide, and soon the Cults book.

I don't believe a SKoH-serious work would actually serve as well.

Remember the foundations of the City are a bargain with Glamour, the (demi?)goddess...  She ain't so much for Sartarite-style seriousity.

===

THAT SAID...

fwiw, Nick:  I seriously think you should adjust the DTRPG blurb to make it explicitly clear to all buyers that there is a LOT of levity / jokes / etc in RGtG, that the overall tone is less-serious than other area-guides to Glorantha.  This isn't the first time I've seen this sort of remark from someone who didn't understand what they were buying.  And if there are one or two speaking up, there's a lot more who are just quietly unhappy about it (because that's how these things work).
 

Doesn't pretty much every review note that it's tongue in cheek in tone?

You know, I kinda think the Brithini have like a weird reverse-Gnostic thing going on. Somatics (the bodily ones) were basically just animated meat walking around, while pneumatics and hylics had "gnosis" (wisdom, awareness) of their super-material nature, which of course made them superior.

Conversely, for the Brithini, the rest of the world is basically swaying around in a cosmic fever dream, imbuing Runes with personality and irrationally throwing themselves around according to their whim, with no real understanding of the real, immutable laws of the cosmos. 

Unlike the Gnostics, of course, the Brithini have very tangible proof for their worldview. Their immortality. 

I've always thought this puts non-immortal Malkioni in an interesting position. You have to convince your followers that your version of Malkionism, or Rational Law, is truer in a way that is perhaps harder to define. Hrestol explored personal struggle and enlightenment, with promises of afterlife, iirc. Other schools seem to vary from "we do this one kind of magic, I guess", or "who would want to live forever anyway, bodies are yucky" to "We have a model of society that will produce the perfect one, in the grand scheme of things" or something similar.

/tangent

Ah, the People's Fundamentalist Revolution of Rokarism is an ever and ongoing project, of course. The New Man was not made in one day. Please report to your local Zzabur Logical Officer for re-educaction into proper, rational caste protocols if you notice subversive thoughts.

10 minutes ago, Oracle said:

I thought so, but that's the point: Neither do I understand the puns nor do I see the Easter Eggs ... which tells me, that there are still a lot of holes in my Gloranthan lore ...

Pharaoh is Ancient Egyptian for "Great House", as detailed in the thread.

The "Faro (ie., "Pharaoh/oah") Wheel" of Casino Town is located in the "Great House" (ie. Pharaoh) of the ruling guy there.

It was visited and jackpotted by Belintar (ie. the Pharoah) when he visited. 

That's what I got out of it at least. I suspect MOB just quoted a slightly relevant lore snippet to drop us a goodie.

6 minutes ago, Oracle said:

Not sure, but I think, I do not understand, how this is related to the OP ... 🤔

Interrelated puns and Easter Eggs.

4 minutes ago, Joerg said:

That's what a game in Fronela is likely to look like, and possibly the Aamor story-line in Fornoar (just northwest of Rindland), too. Safelster is already a different beast with its rivaling city states and the Arkat theme.

"Knights" in "Seshnela" are talar caste warriors. When "errant" that means they aren't the designated heirs of the holdings that support the cataphract equipment and stable of horses a full cataphract talar-warrior requires. Let's assume that younger (or otherwise non-heir) sons who don't want to serve under a brother and playground rival will seek distinction and rewards away from the family holdings, hoping to impress a patron - ideally the king or the High Watcher - to appoint them to some newly vacated holding.

Given Guilmarn's track record to unite all the provincial ruling holdings to his person, the remaining talars are reduced to rural holdings, or secondary cities at best. While they are valued as providers of regiments to ride in the king's numerous campaigns, maintaining such regiments will stress the output of thier holdings 

 

To me (and presumably to the Rokari Watchers), men-of-all-errant sound like the worst of the Hrestoli aberrations, and need to be censured, except where they might be exploited for deeper plots of the High Watcher and his cabal.

Unless they form up or join a mercenary company in the Safelstran playground.

Once upon a time Greg also toted a chivalric "Army of Tomorrow", an order with 10 chapters, one of these active in Kethaela. I cannot tell whether or not these are identical with Sir Narib's Company. There is enough overlap.

 

There is no problem taking the concept of Lunar Dart Competitions and adapting it to high ranking Tanisoran struggle for power and influence at Guilmarn's court, with the leading families represented by wives and concubines of the king and military field leaders, possibly mercantile or administrative officials in his name, too. The most influential houses in (modern) Seshnela are the Rindland families who supported Bailifes in his conquests of all of Tanisor and much of Safelster. Older ruling families lost their main titles, and probably the main lines of those houses, but many lesser lines of the same Old Seshnelan descent (as opposed to strongly Enerali descent like the Rindland nobility) and practically all of the Pithdaran familiies remained as lesser talar houses, waiting to come to some office above local level.

I am very curious what happened to the Zzaburi lineages that must have existed at some previous time. The Zzabur caste started out as one of several hereditary castes. While we know about monastic sorcerers in Imperial Seshnela (like the fanatics transplanted by Jonat into his homeland), it doesn't appear like these orders could be joined by anyone of the talar, horal or dronar caste, or by men-of-all of non-zzaburi birth (if at all).

 

The entire concept of the Man-of-All is antithetical to the Rokari sense of order. Going errant on a quest of self-insight is not at all what the Watchers encourage - they claim the sole authority for magial insight for themselves.

 

But then, I have a slight conceptual problem with the talar caste of Seshnela practicing ancestor worship and the Rokari doctrine of complete dissolution in the state of Solace. Manifesting dead ancestors shoudl be impossible under that doctrine, shouldn't it?

The Hrestoli sects apparently are fine with the concept of re-incarnation (mentioned for the Galvosti sect in the Guide).

 

I don't disagree with your points, Joerg, but I'm trying to nail down what direction Jeff is pointing us in, as I'm attempting to grok it.

Okay, so basically, the entry-level of Western adventures is something more akin to knight-errant adventures, ronin and wuxia stories? Wandering warriors relying on their own moral compass to get things done. 

There is, however, a meta-structure, with them being sent around on missions by their superiors (talars, Zzaburi), so not entirely wandering by their own rudder. 

Presumably, there are going to be small-scale events that take PCs from being minor "problem-solvers" of their liege lord and/or sorcerer superior and turns it into a more profound (and perhaps self-driven) quest for deeper meaning and secrets.

From the comments above, this will, somehow, coalesce into revelations and decision that has the potential to upend the social order. 

Is this more on the ball, or have I still completely missed the point?

17 minutes ago, Ali the Helering said:

Internal consistency?  Really?  The Guide has a few issues with that, in and of itself....

"Kingdom of Ignorance: Also known as the Bliss of Ignorance or Chen Durel, this is a bitter and wasted land of rolling hills and twisted woods"

With a population of 2.2 million humans, 1 million uz and 0.5 million enlo.  Bitter and wasted?  Counting humans alone, it has a population density similar to England in 900CE.  Granted, the dragon-blasted mess to the south and the dry-farming lands away from the rivers must be sparsely populated by humans, but the river valleys must be teeming.  With gloriously decorated cities named by Dunsinay but straight out of Ashton-Smith, Glorantha's primary source of lapis lazuli, and the trade nexus between Dara Happa, Pent and the Lunar Empire on one side and Chen Durel, Kralorela, Vormain and the East Isles on the other....

Consistent?  I think not.

Not my circus. My only point was the approach to canon as a concept, not the alleged quality of writing.

You'll be happy to note that people like @Jeff and @MOB have multiple times stated for our benefit that "canon" is only something Chaosium has to worry about. My understanding is that they want their published products to be internally consistent so that customers can use them together and not be too confused. 

However, customers themselves have never been bound by this notion. A player is under no obligation to follow Chaosium's self-imposed publication policy. 

So, you're right, but also, it was never actually an issue.

1 hour ago, John Biles said:

Thus, peasants will pray to the Invisible God for help even if it doesn't really do anything and see themselves as being prepared for a heaven.  The religious instincts of the horali are focused around their warrior societies.  Talars aid certain zzabur ceremonies which aid their territories but basically assume being a good ruler is enough, as they measure goodness.  And the Zzabur practice mental disciplines they think will prepare them for Solace.

 

I'll provide a slightly alternate take: 

To the Dronari, the Invisible God is effectively something more impersonal, like the Egyptian Ma'at, or Hindu karma, it is the principle by which the universe - and by extension, people's souls - are judged and ordered. The Invisible God appears to at least be partially anthropomorphized, at least conceptually (why else call it a God), but it's so distant and disinterested as to be largely irrelevant, like some African creator gods. 

This is where the position of Zzaburi becomes so incredibly important. They effectively act as interlocutors, their sorcerous spells are - from the perspective of Dronari - the works of those wise in the teachings of Malkion, the one individual closest to the Invisible God - sorcery is in some sense divine (forget RQ typology, I'm talking about their perspective). The disinterested, universal laws laid out by the Invisible God applied to human and moral interests. It makes no sense to thank the Invisible God, aside from being thankful that such laws exists to begin with, but overall it's the sorcerers you are thankful to.

So this, in practice, produces reverence, or at the very least a healthy dose of respect, for Zzaburi. Position secured. 

But this does leave Dronars very passive, doesn't it? And that's boring. So we need to work out more. 

I have previously argued that some Dronar organizations, like craft guilds and the like, should have some, largely subliminated sorcery secrets available to them. I believe that this is somewhat justified when looking at the examples of Brithini Dronars in Fronela, but honestly, I just think it's neat. The master of a professional organization, like a Master Mason or Master whatchamacallit only inducts a few into this, as they reach the apex of the craft. Very specialized secrets, like "Measure True", or "Seal Perfectly" and that sort of thing. Not fireballs. 

However, as far as I can tell, this doesn't seem to be the direction Chaosium is going, at least according to how I've read Jeff's posts, instead it seems spirit magic is where Horali and Dronari seem to gravitate. 

This makes sense. Farmers venerate a local nymph or spirit. Local cunning folk gets gifts from them and help out their local community. All basically subliminated into "folk traditions". Too insignificant to really draw the attention of the religious authorities. And too beneficient for Talars to want to disrupt. Good harvests never hurt anyone. So what if young couples go to a certain grove at a certain time of the year and place offerings in hopes of fertility and love, and that, by chance, powers some genius loci? Peasants to weird stuff, but better they do that than rebel. 

I'd even be willing to pull in theism for Dronars, like the low-key (subliminated) worship of, say, the deity of the Tanier, or Seshna or Ralia. The dronar peasants maybe-sorta-kinda know that this might not be the orthodox beliefs, but honestly, this is how their ancestors have always done it, and the word in the villages is that Ralia once fed Malkion in his exile, so how could this be heresy? Think the Virgin Mary and Pacha Mama. Think Renuga Devi in hinduism. Think Vanir in Norse paganism. Synthesis, subalternism, high and low traditions, etc. The more the Zzaburi keep their lore to themselves, the more the common folk are going to invent their own. Rokari ultra-orthodoxy has its limitations, and must operate within real-world constraints in terms of manpower and political possibilities. You can't flog every village healer from Segurane to the delta.

English has a bad habit of making vowels basically interchangeable, so I blame it on that.

1 hour ago, Nevermet said:

Oh, the definition completely makes sense on that level.  However, the consequence of a humanism that prioritizes abstract reason over lived experiences, leading to misery and social ruin is something I think I can rightly call ironic.  (I'm pretty comfortable saying that about real world history in addition to Glorantha)