Sir_Godspeed

1 hour ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

Outlawry is common because the Orlanthi don't have (or believe in) incarceration, which is for crazy Sun People to do. You do something heinous, you're out on your ass, not locked into a weird house with guards. Or they kill you, if it's worse.

This is how humans dealt with serious crime before a juridical legal system like that of the Romans or the Akkadian Empire was adopted. Without support systems, you couldn't survive, so crime it up and you lose that; crime it up heinously and they just cut your neck to be sure you're dead.

There's all sorts of reasons why outlawry is a thing, sure, such as the unfeasability of keeping someone a prisoner at all in a decentralized subsistence context, although enslavement as a punishment is clearly something Orlanthi will do if there's an incentive for it (Esrolia being a heavy outlier, although more for debt than violent crimes). 

My point is more that outlawry can be a convenient way to end an internal conflict without agitating and involving social obligations. A bloodline that has a member executed might carry a grudge for who knows how long (enough to destabilize a clan, maybe?). A bloodline that has a member outlawed might, conceivably, care less. It's dishonoring, but less public and dramatic. 

I'm speculating, obvs.

8 minutes ago, JohannesH said:

I have an question that is somewhat related to this topic: how do Sartarites deal with the prisoners like Tusk riders and such, who will not be able to pay any ransom or wergild for the crimes they have done. I assume they'll be executed, but who does it and how? Will the local thane (like if there was one in Apple Lane) make the decision or does it need to be someone higher, like clan chief or tribal king? Will it be hanging, burning, what? 

Might be less of a "capture them and execute them after deliberation"-situation, and more of a "no quarters given"-kind of deal. Immediate killing wherever is most convenient, at first opportunity, as it were. 

To some degree this is based not so much on conceptual guilt of action ("the person who condemned them is as guilty of killing as the person who executed them"), but rather of ritual purity ("it is the literal act of killing that is polluting"). We see ideas like this repeating in lots of different cultures worldwide, not just with people but with animals (hereditary Tibetan, Japanese and Indian butchers and leatherworkers come to mind, as does the taboo of ancient Hebrew kohenim from touching deceased people, etc.) as well, which perhaps shouldn't surprise us, given that it shields the wealthy and powerful. 

Now, whether this applies to the Orlanthi, I have no idea. 

But it might be a reason why outlawry is so common, perhaps it's mainly a way to get around having to kill kinsmen in particular.

2 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Or as was often the case historically, it was personally dishonorable for the executioner as well, but why would the leader be concerned about that - that's what the executioner is there for! In Europe, the executioner could often be someone pardoned from execution himself in order to take on the job, or something like that.

I remember reading about the development of the executioner position in Denmark-Norway. They attempted to "professionalize" the position by, among other things, giving them a new title and standardizing a salary. However, it remained a socially dubious position that few people would accept.

A bit of a tangent, but if that was what was planned to come from Pamaltela to Genertela, what was planned the other way? Harrek isn't Chaotic... Vadeli?

Yeah, embrace the paradoxes. That's the stuff of myths.

I'd imagine outright executions on a clan level are very rare. These are mostly family and neighbors, mind you, so it has to take a lot of either centralized power or social pressure to have that kind of thing happen. 

The equivalent of an "execution" between clans might simply be a retaliatory raid. An eye for an eye, for example. It doesn't matter, in principle, if you get the actual guy you wanted dead, so long as you get something of roughly equal value. Some kind of kinsman. Ask the Icelanders or the Albanians. Keep in mind, the Orlanthi justice system, much like many historical societies, is group-based, not really individual (except when it is, lol).

If you manage to capture someone who belongs to a party your party has sufficient grievances with, killing them is probably pretty accepted. It's not profitable, as you can't ransom them, and you might be forced, eventually, to pay weregild, but that depends entirely on if the opposing party manages to press the issue well enough, and whether any internal factors oppose the killing (maybe there are in-laws). 

I'm not sure I would get too hung up on the "unarmed" bit. It sounds too idealized to me. If he was armed when he committed the misdeed maybe that counts well enough. Point is, if the powers that be want someone dead, they're going to make it happen.

There are all sorts of (legal/moral) mechanisms by which executions can happen, and all sorts of (legal/moral) ways to legitimize them. 

3 hours ago, Eff said:

The Unbreakable Sword then breaks in the process of tearing apart the Deceiver. Now, I don't have much to say about that directly. It seems a little strange that tearing apart Gbaji the Deceiver would tear Arkat apart as well as Nysalor, after all, we all know that Nysalor was Gbaji all along, unless you're some kinda Lunar. Anyways, Arkat comes out of that with his soul torn apart, and pieces of it scattered throughout Dorastor, presumably hallowing whatever they got embedded in with the power of the Destroyer.

Well, Arkat was Nysalor's Other, so there's a certain kind of symmetry to it. 

Granted, Arkat (or whoever came out of the rubble) lived many years after that, establishing an Empire and seemingly doing the whole Cincinnatus thing, so it seems they fared a lot better being an Other than, say, Sheng did.

Overly convoluted theory for why Brithini and Mostali do not believe in an existence after death:

The reason why the Brithini ands Mostali reject notions of an afterlife is not because they are somehow ignorant of afterlives, but because they regard those as empirically limited as well.

As far as they view it, fully "sentient" ancestor spirits requires some form of remembrance (typically sacrifice and ritual contacting) by the living, meaning that theistic and animist afterlives are effectively subject to some kind of half-life (as they are inevitably forgotten as generations of the living pass on), where they almost inevitably turn into faceless, amnesiac, generic spirits as time passes on, a component voice of the overall collective choir of "ancestors".

The other option to retain individuality forever is to fully submit and partially be absorbed into the identity of a god (ie. herodom), which is also not desireable to them. 

The question is exactly when they got this impression, presumably after Death was brought to the Surface World, but given that the afterlives were still not entirely separated until the Compromise, it might have been hard to suss out the exact mechanics of it.

37 minutes ago, Richard S. said:

https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/home/gloranthan-documents/greg-sez/aldryas-own-story/

This at least lists them as children of Halamdrya, distinct from Aldrya's children.

Well, the only thing I can say is that the Guide mentions them quickly under the "True Elves" heading, along with the Fire Elf and Moon Elf headings.

17 minutes ago, Richard S. said:

I thought the white elves were children of the elven sun god?

Could very well be Aldrya and Halamalo, but afaik they ARE Aldryami, unlike the Blue and Black Elves.

1 hour ago, jajagappa said:

Who does?!  (except maybe Shannon)

White elves - unknown type of "tree" that lived near the peak of the Spike.  Might be some in the Sky Realm still.  Maybe they are some sort of crystalline or light reflecting trees?  Or maybe they have gold or silver bark and fruit?  Something fantastic, associated with light.

Blue elves - we know a bit more since they are described in both the old RQ3 Bestiary and IIRC the new RQG Bestiary.  Think seaweed and kelp forests.  They are aquatic, but I think have both salt- and fresh-water varieties.  The fresh-water types might be associated with great lily-pad type plants.

Elf boats - described in various ship articles (originally Heroes magazine).  Grown from special trees with great leafy sails.

Worth noting that while White Elves were Aldryami (descendants of Aldrya, "true elves"), the Blue Elves are not, they get their name because they are roughly analogous Plant Rune/Flamal being, but they descend from Triolina. I'm mentioning this because this might influence how they play into the whole Reforestation thing. Or maybe not, idk.

There's a concept in Orthodox Christianity called "Foolishness for Christ", which, put simply, is the idea that certain behaviours we today might consider as mentall illness or irrational, are actually due to certain people being closer in contact with the divine, and more radically choosing to live their life according to the influence of that. 

Now, it's no equivalent, but the way I see Joy is more this kind of lasting, profound mental change that alters one's perception of oneself and one's relation to the All, and this manifests in what others might perceive as euphoria, but perhaps just as importantly a strong sense of motivation, drivenness and, eh, eudaimonia, for lack of a better term. For the uninitiated they might also come off as utterly bonkers.

Maybe this is a completely wrong take on it.

6 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Interestingly, Tolkien looks less unitary the more of his work-in-progress stuff you read. What comes down to us is a bunch of often contradictory material, a corpus that shifts over time and where attempting to reconstruct the "real" Middle-Earth becomes a lot like reconstructing "real" ancient history out of conflicting, fragmentary sources.

 

It also has a meta-narrative of unreliable narrators. Keep in mind, canonically, The Lord of the Rings was translated from Westron by Tolkien, who based it on copies of the Red Book of Westmarch, made over thousands of years, originally written by Bilbo, and added to by Frodo and Sam, who based their Elder Days accounts on those of the Elves at Rivendell. 

There's stuff between the lines there, but it's obviously nowhere near as explicit as the tangled nature of Glorantha - where plural myths and narratives is, if anything, the central theme.

10 hours ago, Eff said:

And in the world that is emerging at the start of the Hero Wars, commerce would be the stronger force

Is it though? Kinda seems like trade is going to go the way of the dodo once the veritable apocalypse starts. At least for a while.

2 hours ago, AndreJarosch said:

But that would mean that you could never encounter a goddess and think:
"Oh, she is skinnier than i thought."
"Oh, she has one pair of arms more as i imagined her."
"Oh, she has THAT skin colour?, I never thought of that."

You should be able to see/experience in a heroquest more than you had in your imagination beforehand, IMHO.
 

MORE makes a lot of sense, sure, but I think it's misleading to portray it as TRUER, if that makes sense.

2 hours ago, AndreJarosch said:

Do i show them the picture with "And this is like you and mostly everyone in your culture imagines Goddess  XYZ to look like."

Or do i show them the picture when they encounter Goddess XYZ on a Heroquest: "This is what you actually see."

I'm pretty sure these would basically be identical. The gods appear as the worshippers imagine they will. The gods have no "true" form, as such.

8 minutes ago, AndreJarosch said:

I skimmed this topic, but couldn´t find the answer to my question...

We are shown a lot of GREAT artwork of the upcoming Gods of Glorantha book(s), but do these pictures show us how the gods REALLY look like, or do these pictures show us how they look very likely if they are met on a heroquest, or does these pictures show us how the most pious worshipper looks like when he emulates his god?

Is it possible to separate those?

7 hours ago, Ali the Helering said:

This gives no indication either way for clans outside Dragon Pass.  However, I would read the third sentence to imply that DP Orlanthi are unusual in their emphasis on freedom.  MGWV

That sorta makes sense. Mountains valleys versus the heavily agrarian flatlands of Seshnela/Ralios on the one side, and Peloria on the other, makes for a more lucrative slave trade, one would imagine.

3 hours ago, Eff said:

To this we can add Grazelanders and vendref, a relationship I'm still not sure is easy to model. 

I'm not sure if we have an easy and convenient shorthand for it, but the idea of a conquering military elite turning the conquered population into a serf class does seem to be something that pops up fairly often in RW history, although I admit with a lot of variety and a tendency to collapse after a while. 

The main difference might be that in this case the "conquered" were the immigrants, and the "conquerors" were the natives.

46 minutes ago, Darius West said:

I must disagree. Not everyone in an Orlanthi setting worships Daka Fal or Grandfather mortal.  Not everyone is a shaman.  Your average Orlanthi farmer worships Orlanth or Barntar and cannot do as you suggest.  Few if any Gloranthans hero quest, save perhaps the comparatively minor quest of their initiation into adulthood.  When it comes to the afterlife, they cannot do as you suggest, and they must take the words of their priest or shaman as to the veracity of such things.  Few if any people are rich enough to pay for a ritual that would allow them such a journey, and it would likely take a good portion of the tribe's resources to allow such activities so it would require some sort of official permission from the clan ring.  Yes, there are cult spirits, but the number of people with access to Second Sight is quite low, as it is not a common cult magic at all within the Lightbringer Pantheon.  Unfortunately I think your perspective might be biased to a HQ perspective of how Orlanthi society operates, and that is fine and good for heroic individuals, but your rank and file Orlanthi are not anywhere near that level of ability until perhaps halfway through Argrath's reign, when even teenagers from Sartar are hardened warriors due to the constant pressures of the Hero Wars to find warm bodies to plough into the next round of battles.

I was referring to it in the "general". Obviously not everyone does it, but the point is that it is objectively verifiable. Sacred Time rites are very strongly supernatural to basically everyone, for example.

1 hour ago, Ali the Helering said:

Now we give them a PhD.  Go figure....

lolwat

39 minutes ago, Darius West said:

I think thralls are a bit more cynical about their masters' motives than you portray them then. For example, customarily in Germanic culture the idea of "assent to sacrifice" was typically a rope around the head and neck that was tugged down to produce a nod that was then taken as agreement. Does that sound like actual consent? On rare occasions people volunteered to be sacrificed in Norse society according to records.  We dare not hazard to guess what their true motives were however.  For the people less religiously inclined, no doubt the whole thing looked utterly horrifying, and merely an expression of the repressive power of the religious institutions, and if you think there were no atheists in pantheist communities, think again.  To the less religious, the whole business looked utterly insane, and any halfway rational person could see the waste of precious resources in such acts, spent for dubious if any gains.  I write this with my tongue firmly in my cheek however, as human sacrifice and its ridiculous apologetics and justifications definitely have a necessary place in RQ.

I'm not trying to argue the institution of human sacrifice, I'm just saying Orlanthi can literally pop on over to the afterlife, have a chat with great-great-grandpa, scope out the place, and come back, and vice versa on holy days. It's not a theoretical thing, it literally happens. That creates a very different context for human sacrifice. 

Are they going to be using people who would rather live? Probably. War captives and the like are easy to lose, no one relevant will miss them. 

9 hours ago, svensson said:

Orlanth, Uralda [Eiritha to Heortlings and Cow Mother] or Uralda's species specific subcults, Entra [Sow Mother], Isbarn [Goose Girl], Nevala [Ewe Mother]. Apparently, chickens don't get a deity 😁 And horses get Elmal, of course.

Orlanthi "Animal Mother"-style goddesses seem to be limited to herd mammals, with Isbarn being an interesting outlier/compromise of sorts. Perhaps simply because the goose is sacred in Esrolia/Nochet. 

Presumably there are mythic entities for other domestic animals, but they might not have anything resembling an organized worship, or established mythos.

My headcanon is that they love pats and scritches and are very gentle around Rhino Rider children (if somewhat dangerously clumsy/nearsighted).