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Sir_Godspeed

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Sir_Godspeed last won the day on November 6 2019

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About Sir_Godspeed

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    Sycophantic Contrarian

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    Some DnD, mostly video games otherwise.
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    None atm.
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    Norway
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    Very much a beginner. Mostly interested in the story- and lore aspect over crunch.

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  1. I apologize if I'm coming off as rude - that was not the intention. I am not being facetious, I have very little understanding of what these references are.
  2. Who? The ignorants? Which god? When? What? The what now? As you can see, I am totally blanking on this. EDIT: Basically all I know is that Bliss in Ignorance used to be populated by a culture of humans who worshipped the Sun(?), but at some point started mass sacrifice from stepped pyramids (subtle). Then something bad happened, and we get a succession - or prophesized succession? - of different Suns, and something about a war in heaven (or am I crossing wires now?) and then there are some trolls moving in who either conquer and take over with some Darkness Sun or something, and then something about trollkin and humans and Kralori and oh dear I appear to have gone crosseyed. So feel free to treat me as if I'm a newborn babe on this one.
  3. This is something I'm quite ignorant of (heh). I'm getting the general vibes that it's about an alternate perception of the God Time many suns stuff, and I think there's something parallel to the Vithelan myths of the demon who takes over heaven (Helespur?) and maybe Shargash is related to the Blood or Black Sun or something, but overall I don't really understand it. Both explanation and reading suggestions would be much appreciated.
  4. Ezkankekko's role in the Greater Darkness and Gray/Dawn Age almost cannot be overstated. He's in command of pretty much the only stable polity left, and his agents, through the shadow tribute (aka the equal exchange) facilitate the survival of many other groups. He also commands the most effective anti-Chaos fighting forces there, and is of course an incredibly powerful magician with a legitimate genealogical claim to overlordship of the land (being a son of Esrola the Earth). He is bar none, afaik, the main leadership figure in the region. There's a reason why the region of Kethaela in this time, and even in the second and early third age is called the Shadowlands. But you're absolutely right - Heortling-biased sources (which is what we usually see in game supplements) tends to deemphasize his role for that of Heort or other heroes. Esrolians are more open about OOO's preeminence though. EDIT: This is my impression at least.
  5. I still think it's less a case of multiple sources and more a case of multiple perspectives on the same source. THe GaGoG has a theistic slant, and a God Learner/Esrolian Knowledge Temple one as well, so it makes sense to emphasise the genealogical perspective. Are the Jaskali dino-Hsunchen descended from escaped slaves of the Mostali or am I imagining that?
  6. This is also why communal performance and recital of these myths is so important - creating common references on which society is built. Common experiences, often bodily, that solidify otherwise abstract relations. The practical importance of myths is probably also why people like the Lightbringers and Lunars and God Learners were so succesful: they provided myths that helped explain new things, and make sense of this widening of the horizon. The Lightbringer cycle, and the harmonization/adjustment of Dara Happan and Theyalan mythologies weren't simply important because they "set the record straight" from an historian's point of view, but because they allowed the guy in the street to actually communicate and speak with - or be pissed at - those others, imho. You might disagree on which gods were the right ones to follow, but at least you both sorta understood where the other were coming from. That wasn't possible prior to the Unity Council, I'd argue. Doesn't always work, but for many it clearly does.
  7. I think my point is that within an emic framework, it's not really the job of the various myths to be coherent across narratives - each narrative is a story unto itself, and serves a purpose of making sense of some part of existence or the human condition. This doesn't mean that they all neatly crossover into - for lack of a better term - an Expanded Universe. Most RW cultures do not have any equivalences of, say, the Bible or the Tripitaka (and even these - pruned and well-gardened and editorialized as they are, are not wholly internally consistent). Double-checking consistency across different stories isn't a massive concern, partly because you're usually not expected to know all of them by letter, and partly because there is an underlying understanding that the literal understanding is only part of it. Most mythologies work more along the lines of people having a stock set of characters which they put into different explanatory narratives. The general jist sort of fits, but the details don't have to. Hence the common emphasis on how "this happened long ago", etc. found in many narratives. I agree that many people restricted to their emic worldview probably see these stories as roughly consistent with each other, but I also think that they do so partly without necesarrily caring too much about the nitty gritty, and also, as mentioned above, that these stories are less important as straightforward narratives of the past, and more important for what they achieve in the here and now - ie. serve as legitimizers for power structures, moral lessons for children, explanation models for natural phenomena, public entertainment, gathering symbols, comfort in pain, etc. This is why consistency is not that big of a concern for most mythologies. They aren't *really* about the past. They're about the present.
  8. I'm not even sure if I believe that. I'm not sure if myth is ever even MEANT to be coherent. If anything, the consistency is the product of exercising control over myth, whereas inconsistency is a result of exploring it freely. YGWV, obviously.
  9. I agree that heroquesters can and have messed with the God Time (wether one phrases this as emphasizing and deemphasizing already existing narrative bonds or outright retconning narrative bonds is a bit academical) but I think the main reason for the internal inconsistencies of the God Time has less to do with this and more to do with that the God Time was never a single "timeline" and the fact that Gloranthans in Time are attempting to understand it like one grand narrative that appears in a sequential, linear and consistent narrative is a doomed project, because that's not how it worked. The God Time allowed for simultanous contradictory events to happen, and may have run several "cycles" simultaneously, allowing for the cause to come after the effect. Basically, not only the God Learners, but anyone attempting rigid and consistent sequentialization of the God Time were effectively trying to do the mythical equivalent of creating a flat map for a round globe, which as any cartographer will tell you, is bound to come with lots of issues. Just my $0.02.
  10. This is really interesting, thanks for sharing!
  11. I suppose, though the game makes it seem like it flows just sort of past Nivorah. I suppose it's possible Nivorah was located eastwards of where Jillaro is today - or even that the Arcos riverbed was further to the west. It's the God Time, stuff happens. It's very possible that keying into Reladivus is useful to establishing some rulership rituals/protections. I'm not so familiar with how this works for city gods or male mastery gods - I suppose the land sovereignty goddess model of sacred marriage doesn't quite work here - unless the male temporal ruler becomes a priest of the male mastery god and then enters either into a sacred marriage or in some way lays claim to God-Time-derived rulership. EDIT: Shargash/Alkor and the two goddesses they married comes to mind. A grain goddess and a river goddess, to be fair, but close enough in that they give legal claim to territorial control. Possibly this is also why the Dara Happan tripolis has remained so stable for several millennia, both pre- and post-Time. Not just the bonds of the Emperor, but the identification between the city god as both ruler and gestalt spirit of the community and its temporal ruler - but now I'm getting off track and getting a bit too general and wishy washy.
  12. According to Six Ages, Reladivus is the son of Elmal, and specifically the city god of Nivorah. In this respect he is a lot like Alkor is to Shargash, imho, both a separate entity and a devolved specialized aspect. This is further complicated by, as mentioned above, the Dara Happan Empire apparently removing all mentions of Elmal from their records, and elevating Reladivus to the position of planetary god of Nivorah, which effectively makes him a kind of Little Sun as far as I'm concerned, although this is a *very* wide definition of "Little Sun" (by this definition Shargash is also a Little Sun, for instance - and while he is is a Planetary Deity, he is certainly not associated with Lightfore in any way that I know). This brings us to Time, I guess. I don't know Saird's history very well, but if old pre-Time traditions were taken up, I'd imagine them looking to Reladivus for certain celestial ideas, I guess. Overall I think the urban community aspect would be more important? (There is a weird thing about him taming Arcos, which I'm confused by, since I thought Nivorah was further west, but my knowledge here is patchy).
  13. I've heard that too, I thought both were in the Guide.
  14. Sir_Godspeed

    Elmal?

    I mean, I get it, but for a long time it seems that Elmal was not just intended to be the Orlanthi Lightfore god, but their god of the literal sun disk as well - at least that's the impression I get when I read Greg's "The Birth of Elmal - or why I screwed up your Glorantha". GRanted, I might be reading that incorrectly - and I know that a lot of development has happened over many years since then, but the point remains that for a lot of people, the associations of Elmal does not just go to Lightfore, but the daytime Sun Disk as well. But you almost assuredly know this, and I know this, and most people visiting this site probably know this, and I suspect we're all a bit tired of going through the motions of this debate over and over again. I respect the current direction of Chaousium. I don't really care if Elmal is retroactively losing some spells (I much more dislike Elmal's social and mythical marginalization, but that's a different issue), but I suppose others might. I don't think too much is going to be gained from having this discussion again.
  15. I can't comment on the overall narrative. It is a fine one, as it appears to me, but I've no real horse in the race and neither the knowledge to evaluate against any thoughts of my own. One small thing I can comment on is that in Six Ages, the Hyalorings are shown as primarily cattle-ranchers. A few of the Hyaloring clans are Pure Horse people - much like with modern Pentans they are a minority, not the norm.
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