Imryn

It can be started either through training or through divine intervention. The difficulty in finding a trainer is up to the GM. Due to the high starting requirements for dual wielding skills most characters will be Rune Lords (or close) by the time they meet them, and I assume that the DI option will be used if the GM doesn't want to sidetrack the campaign with a "hunt the trainer" session. I like the idea of having certain weapon combinations being associated with specific temples or cults. It gives the players a place to start their search for a trainer and provides obvious hooks for quests etc. Combining both points, it would be great if the players had to hunt down a trainer if they wanted to start a "known" dual wielding skill, and use DI if they wanted to start a completely new and unknown skill.

@Mugen I think between us we have pretty thoroughly covered all of the pluses and minuses of using two weapons, but do you have any feed back for my house rule?

Greatsword 2d8 plus bonus (say its 1d6) gives 3 - 22 pts of damage. Assume 6 pts of armour, on average 6.5 pts of damage gets through; max is 15.5 pts. Battleaxe 1d8+2+1d6 gives 4 - 16 pts damage, assume 6 pts of armour, on average 4 pts gets through; max is 10 pts. Double that for 2 axes gives average 8, max 20. The rules for multiple parries have no effect, except with 2 weapons I can choose which to use, and if one breaks i still have one left. Greatsword can take 12 hp damage, battleaxe can take 8 so my two weapons can take more damage before I am disarmed. If your main weapon was enchanted and had spell matrices on it etc you should be very wary about letting it get damaged because if it breaks you have to start again from scratch. The only thing I agree with is that it is a pain to develop two skills, but anything that is useful should require effort.

After assimilating the excellent feed back my first attempt received, I have taken another stab at creating a house rule for dual wielding: ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- House Rule: Dual Wielding V2 All existing RAW for left hand weapon use stands: Left-hand weapons skills start at 5% or at half right-hand weapons skill (GM’s discretion). Attacks with two weapons takes place as per RAW i.e. sequentially (RH weapon attacks at normal SR, then LH weapon attacks at the combined SR of both weapons, and so forth). Parries take place as normal and the player can choose which weapon is used for each parry. Dual Wielding: Dual wielding as an advanced form of fighting with two weapons that can only be learnt by characters who have already mastered the two weapons they wish to dual wield, and which allows them to use the weapons in a combined style. Dual wielding is a separate skill to normal weapon use, and each different combination of weapons is a separate skill. Trainers in these skills are exceedingly rare, as is research material. Requirements: The specific dual wielding skill must be clearly identified (using the format RH weapon / LH weapon) The character must have mastered the two weapons selected (defined as having a 90% + skill level) The character must obtain training in the specific skill to start at 5% + manipulation bonus. This skill cannot be started through experience or research. It can be started through a successful divine intervention roll. Dual Wielding skill use: Attacks and parries made when fighting with the dual wield skill take place using the LOWER of either the dual wield skill chance or that of each individual weapon. Experience gains can be made based on which skill is used to attack or parry i.e. if the dual wield skill is used it can get a check mark, if the individual weapon skill is used it can get a check mark. When attacking using a dual wield skill the attacks take place simultaneously (not sequentially) and in the order determined by the weapons SR i.e. 1st attack takes place at the SR of the weapon with the lowest SR, 2nd attack takes place at the SR of the other weapon, 3rd attack takes place at double the SR of the first weapon, 4th attack takes place at double the SR of the second weapon , and so forth. If both weapons have the same SR the attacks take place simultaneously. RAW for splitting attacks apply (note that the LOWER of the dual wield skill and the weapon skill is used). RAW for parries apply (note that the LOWER of the dual wield skill and the weapon skill is used). Magic that increases a character’s skill with a weapon functions as normal, however improving a weapon skill does not improve a dual wield skill that includes that weapon. For the purpose of magical enhancement dual wield skills are not classed as weapon skills. The LOWER of the dual wield and the weapon skill is still used for all attacks and parries. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I think this house rule will allow the kind of flowing coordinated action we see in martial arts movies (the good ones, not the garbage), without being overwhelmingly powerful. Potentially a character could be making about 8 or 10 attacks per round (I think SR 2 is the lowest a 1h weapon gets) but it would be a very long road to get there. Because the lowest skill out of the dual wield skill and the individual weapons is used the player will have to advance 3 skills to improve, and because magic that affects a single weapon doesn’t affect the dual wield skill, it’s going to take a lot of time and effort to get up to the 250% plus needed to max out attacks. The one situation I haven’t covered is LH weapon and shield. My inclination is to make it a dual wield skill because the LH weapon is the main weapon and not a secondary weapon, however it would have added a lot of complication to the rule and I don’t think it will come up very often – GM’s discretion! So, what do you think?

Don't Rune Lords allied spirits get POW checks for worshipping etc? I know they are normally embodied, but I don't think embodiment is actually required for the POW check.

Thanks for your feedback @Grievous I think something that didn't come across clearly in the OP is that I was primarily talking about using weapons in the left hand as the primary weapon and not as an extra weapon. I think adding a dagger in the left hand while wielding a sword in the right would be just as you describe, but that's not what my house rule was for. I was talking about learning to fight with the weapon in the left hand as the primary weapon with nothing in the right. This is different, and you would have to re learn all the stances, footwork, body positioning etc as it would all be the opposite of what you were used to. In this case I think muscle memory and trained responses would be working against you. I agree that dual wielding should be a separate skill, and I am working on a revised rule that focuses less on learning to use weapons left handed and more on dual weapon use.

@soltakss Of course you can re write all the forthcoming material to reflect dead npcs, I said so at the start of my post. I also said it would be a monumental amount of work. I guess our personal definitions of "monumental" vary a bit. Your example using Harrek kind of makes my point - Harrek dies and the Wolf pirates go their own way. Now the story must be re written to account for the absence of the Wolf pirates from every event they were scheduled to carry out, and also to incorporate the actions they are now carrying out without Harrek. The players cannot take the place of an npc without slavishly following the pre ordained actions for that npc. If they kill Harrek and take over the Wolf pirates they would then have to follow every pre ordained action to "be" Harrek - any deviation and they are just a player with a pirate fleet. I'm not saying you can't do this, i'm just saying that you can't do it and remain in the published story line.

Its a fun idea for the players to kill one of the major npc characters, but if I was GM I would have some problems with it. The "official" timeline for the gods war is already published and all of the major npcs have their story already laid out before them. All of the published materiel assumes they are around to carry out their assigned actions so killing them off creates a plot hole. The GM might be willing to re-write the entire gods war story line, and re-write any new published material that is going to come along, but that is going to be a monumental amount of work. The major npcs are very powerful and have huge entourages of very powerful retainers and supporters. If, somehow, the players were able to kill one what is to stop those retainers from simply resurrecting them? If the players come up with a way of preventing resurrection from working why can't they heroquest to get them back? I would say that there is no way that the players can prevent the npc from being brought back, and once they are back they are going to be pissed. "Time" in Glorantha is not like "time" for us. Its a construct imposed on reality by the will of the gods. Argrath orchestrates the destruction of the red moon. This hasn't happened yet, but it will happen. If Argrath is killed by the players today another Argrath will take his place (this has been mentioned before here). The story as written does not mention multiple successive "Argraths" so nobody will notice the replacement. If the players try to boast about killing Argrath they will be laughed at and ridiculed. If they persist the current Argrath will get pissed and send people to shut the annoying lying braggarts up. If the players manage to kill a major npc they cannot take the place of the npc in the story line. Not and remain as player characters. From that point on they would be restricted to walking down a pre-ordained path and carrying out pre-ordained actions. Borrowing a concept from Doctor Who, I would classify the major npcs and all of their actions that forward the pre ordained plot line as "fixed points in time". You can view them but you cannot alter them.

I have a couple of observations to make: 1. Any statistical information about averages is irrelevant - the characters we create are in no way average, they are (at least potentially) legendary heroes. 2. Any statistical information available is massively slanted towards the modern technological age. 3. You have ignored the effect of upbringing and environment - the proposal is all "nature" and no "nurture". The final point is very important in a bronze age society. Variations in diet can make a huge difference in the growth rate of children, and historically the children of the ruling classes grew much bigger, stronger, and healthier than the peasants they lorded it over. For this reason gender based variation would be minor compared to social class variation. The INT stat is not just a measure of IQ, it is also a measure of learning and knowledge. Historically few people were what we would call educated and almost none of them were women. In general education was not "wasted" on women. If you want to create a system that differentiates between genders, one based on social class and upbringing actually makes more sense, historically. Personally, I think its a step too far but each gaming group can make the decision for themselves.

I would imagine the limits would come from roleplaying and the GM - each cult makes demands on its initiates time and resources and has their own particular objectives. This will have a big impact on the time a character has available for adventuring. If I was GMing I would enforce the temples demands on any player who was an initiate in more than two or three cults, pulling them in multiple conflicting directions. But that's just me!

Thanks for the honest assessment Bill. I realise I have written a book to cover something that is simple as in the RAW, and tbh the concept for my house rule is pretty simple in my head, I'm just not able to articulate it in a simple form. I posted it here to get some feedback, and when you ask for feed back you better be prepared to take whatever comes I also started out in D&D and later AD&D and also have boxes full of rule books and notebooks in my storage unit. One bad review isn't going to stop me, but it might inspire me to take a crack at explaining it in a simpler more concise way.

"As is" is the similar weapons rule applying - i believe Jeff dropped that into the rules clarification thread somewhere. it doesn't matter though, you can play with my rules, or your rules, or Jeff's rules - its your game at the end of the day

This is probably irrelevant in Glorantha - you fight for sport (kendo) and fun (foam weapons), not to kill people. In Glorantha the sword stops on its own once it's stuck into your opponent, so that's one less thing to worry about, right?

It sounds to me as if you are pretty close to being ambidextrous. You should thankful because most of us are more like @ChalkLine

I have re read the rules and this is wrong. If a Humakti joins Orlanth as an initiate he gets access to Orlanthi rune magic and also rune magic from all the associated cults but all the sacrificed POW goes into a single Orlanthi RP pool. So my Humakti would have 2 x 21 pt RP pools (one for Humakt and one for Orlanth). This is fine; it's the same for all characters, not just Humakt. Unless one of you devious so and so's has a way to be an initiate in more than 2 cults.

I don't think you can do it effectively - to effectively wield the sword with your off hand you would have to reverse your body position or you would be off balance and unable to apply any force with the sword. I would say you could release the sword with your right hand long enough to throw the javelin (or whatever) but during that time you could only parry with the sword, not attack.

Missile weapons like throwing axes, daggers, darts, javelins etc would be prime candidates for my house rule. Trying to throw something left handed is an embarrassing nightmare that most of us have experienced at one time or another. Now imagine trying to throw left handed with both accuracy and power! After writing that it occurred to me that you wouldn't really lose any ability with your right hand while learning to throw with your left. Throwing is not a complex learned skill, it is mostly instinctual. maybe I need more words in my epic length house rule 😱

it sounds to me from what you have described is that the martial arts you mentioned teach right and left hand at the same time. With my system there would be no hindrance to learning right and left from scratch. The hindrance only comes in when someone is highly trained with right hand and completely untrained with left.

Simple answer - I created a character and got a geas not to use shields, so I started thinking of alternatives. A two handed weapon is great but compare a greatsword (2d8 damage plus bonus) with two battleaxes (1d8+2, 1d8+2 plus 2 x bonus). Also, without a shield you have to use your weapon to parry, and eventually it will break. If its a two handed weapon you are now defenseless (and also offenceless, if that's a real word), whereas if you have two battleaxes you just lose one. I agree that shield is the way to go for almost everyone, but an alternative is nice to have.

I have completely changed the last example. I don't know what I was thinking when I wrote it but it was utter nonsense as written. It is long - longer than I thought it would be when I started writing it, but it just grew as I kept adding specificity to nail down exactly what I meant. A better writer could probably halve the word count without losing any of the meaning. To expand a bit on my idea of "unlearning the main hand", I was not thinking just of the movements of the arm and hand. A good comparison might be to think of a martial artist doing a kata. A very long and complicated series of punches, kicks, leaps, and tumbles all executed precisely. As I understand it (i'm not a martial artist) the practitioner approaches a zen like state while performing the Kata, thinking only in the moment and the perfect execution of the current movement. The movements flow from one to the next without conscious thought. Now tell that guy to do the Kata in reverse - every punch with the opposite hand, every kick with the opposite leg, every leap off the opposite foot and every turn in the opposite direction. It would be hilarious to watch. He would have to think about every action he was performing and there would be no flow, no rhythm and absolutely no zen like state. As time went by and he practiced he would get better, but the act of learning the reverse Kata would affect his ability to perform the original kata, because now he would have to remember at each stage which way round the next move needed to be performed. People with a modicum of skill with a weapon (represented in today's world by casual re-enactors, serious LARPers etc) would have a skill level in game of maybe 40% and would not take long to train in left handed use with my system. People with a very high skill (represented by serious martial artists, competitive fencers etc) would have a skill level in game of 90% or better and would have a much harder time learning to fight with their left hand. I take your point about bow use, my experience with them is limited to compound or pretty light weight types. I hadn't considered that a serious bow requires a push / pull action to draw and considerable strength to hold at full draw. The muscles used are different for each side of the body so maybe the half experience rule shouldn't apply.

I have read the rules on this topic, and read the “Egregious munchkinnery” thread, and think they have nailed exactly how the rules work in RQG but I just don’t think they are very good. I started to think about how I would implement off hand weapon use and dual wielding, and decided to come up with some house rules to cover it. And then I decided to post it here so I could get all of your input on it. Firstly, the RAW makes it way too easy to learn off hand weapon use. The RAW classifies off hand weapon use as a “similar weapon” to main hand weapon use and that’s just not right (IRL terms). A very few weapon skills are similar enough when switching from right to left hand to have the “similar weapons” rule apply – for instance using bows and crossbows it is possible to switch and still retain a fair degree of accuracy. I am basing this on my training in the military and I know that shooting left handed is not that different to shooting right handed, so I think the 50% of right handed skill is reasonable. My problem is with almost all of the melee weapons. Wielding a sword is a complex three-dimensional task, and intense training does two things: · It develops specific muscles which can’t really be developed any other way. · It instils specific reactions that transcend conscious thought. Trying to wield a melee weapon in the off hand you would not have the specific muscle development, and more importantly every one of the specific reactions that you have learnt would be the opposite of what they should be. Moreover, the more highly trained you were with the weapon in your main hand the harder it would be to use it in your off hand. So, on to the house rules: Ground Rules 1. The “half effectiveness” rule is superseded by these rules. 2. At the GM’s discretion the “half effectiveness” rule can be applied to specific weapons – argue your case! 3. To use a weapon in the left hand the character must have 1.5 times the minimum DEX needed to use the weapon. 4. During character creation all skill bonuses must be applied to either a left-hand skill or a right-hand skill. No single bonus can be applied to both. 5. During character creation if a left-hand skill and a right-hand skill for a weapon are selected the bonuses must be applied so that at the end of the character creation process the two skills are within 5% of each other. (The reason for this is explained below). Learning Off Hand Weapon Skills All off hand weapon skills start at 5% plus manipulation bonus. Any character can pick up a weapon in their off hand and use it with this level of skill without penalty. If a character decides to train (defined as any activity that results in their skill with that weapon in their left hand increasing) with a weapon in their left hand their skill with that weapon in their main hand decreases by the same number of points as they gain with their off hand. Example: Our hero has a 70% skill with dagger in their main hand, and decides to train with the dagger in his left hand. His base skill with the dagger in his left hand is 15% (5% plus bonus) and he gains 4% through training. His skill with the dagger in his left hand is now 19% however his skill with the dagger in his right hand drops to 66%. This reduction in ability with the main hand represents the character “un-learning” the reactions he has developed while training with his main hand only. (The GM should ensure that the during the “retraining” period the player is not simply using the weapon in their left hand until they get a skill check and then reverting to right hand – award skill checks for right hand use as well to slow their progress if they are not being diligent) During this “retraining” period the skill points can drop on either skill; i.e. if he gains skill points on his right-handed skill, he loses the same number on his left-handed skill. This situation continues until either the characters ability with the weapon in their off hand drops back to 5%+ bonus (representing them giving up on the idea) or their skill with the weapon in their off-hand exceeds their skill with it in their right hand. This represents them having “unlearned” all of the bad habits they had developed when they only used the weapon in their right hand. This is the point that newly created characters who have put points into both left- and right-hand skills are assumed to be at. At this point the character can choose if they want to develop both skills or continue to develop the left handed skill only. If they want to continue with the left-handed skill only, they continue to train that skill and the right-handed skill continues to drop until it reaches 5%+ bonus (This may be lower than the base skill for that weapon – the character is considered to be left handed with this weapon from now on, and the right-handed skill is considered to be the off-hand skill). If the character wants to develop both left and right handed skills he must train the lower of the two skills, in sequence. He stops losing points from either skill but is only able to increase the skill which has the lowest chance until both left and right handed skills have been mastered (reached 90%) Example: Our hero has persevered with his left handed dagger training and has raised his skill with the dagger in his left hand to 48% (a total gain of 33%). His skill with the dagger in his right hand has dropped by the same amount, so that is now 47%. He wants to develop both skills so at this point, he must raise the lower of the two skills. He trains with his right hand and gets a 3% increase, giving him 50% with his right hand and remains at 48% with his left hand. Next, he must train with his left hand, and so on, until he reaches 90% with both. Once the character has reached 90% skill with both hands, he is considered to have mastered the weapon and can develop either skill at will. Learning to Dual Wield Weapons Learning to use a weapon in your left hand does not confer the ability to use the weapon in both hands and combine the attacks successfully; it just teaches you to use the weapon in your left hand. This allows you to use a sword in your left hand and a shield in your right (assuming you have learnt to use a shield in your right hand) in just the same way as using the sword in your right and the shield in your left. You can also fight with a weapon in each hand, but you can only attack with one and defend with the other. During the intentions phase you state which hand will attack and which will defend, and then during the round you can make as many attacks with the nominated weapon as SR and attack splitting allow. When parrying you can nominate which weapon you will use for each parry, with the usual cumulative -20% penalty for each parry after the first. This allows you to make a parry with one weapon, and if it is damaged switch to the other weapon for the next parry. Dual wielding is the ability to fight with a weapon in each hand and use both to attack and parry at the same time. Dual wielding is a separate skill to using either weapon and has to be trained separately. The basic requirement for dual wielding is have mastered both of the weapons (90% skill), and once this requirement is met you can start a skill to dual wield two specific weapons. Dual wielding broadsword / dagger is a different skill to dagger / broadsword – the first weapon is the one in the right hand and the second is the one in the left hand. Each combination of weapons and hands is a separate skill. A dual wielding skill should be written on the character sheet in the format “right handed weapon / left handed weapon” to prevent any ambiguity and the character must receive training in order to start the skill at 5% + manipulation bonus. Such training can only be obtained from a master of the skill (the specific skill associated with the specific combination of weapons) or via divine intervention. The skill can be advanced via experience, research, and training at the GM’s discretion (if I was GM I would make trainers rarer than hens teeth, and obtaining research materials a hard quest). The player can now opt to use his dual wield skill instead of his individual weapon skills, and successful use of the dual wield skill can gain experience check marks for both that skill and each of the two weapon skills. If the player opts to not use the dual wield skill each of the weapons is used in the manner described above and both can gain an experience check but the dual wield skill cannot. Using the dual wield skill should be declared in the intentions phase and allows the player to make both attacks and parries with both weapons, but with the dual wield skill chance and not the individual weapon skill chance. Each weapon can be used to attack as many times as normal SR and attack splitting allows, and each weapon can be used to parry with the player able to nominate which weapon will be used for each, with the usual cumulative -20% penalty for each parry after the first. When splitting attacks the dual wield skill percentage is used but each weapon benefits from the full value; if the dual wield skill is 100% each weapon can make 2 attacks at 50%. Example: Our hero has mastered the dagger in both his right and left hand and wishes to dual wield a broadsword / dagger. Despite the fact that he has a 90% skill with dagger in both his right and left hand, and 90% with broadsword in his right hand, his skill with broadsword / dagger (after he has obtained training) is only 5%+bonus, so only 15%. At the start of each round he must state if he is dual wielding or not, and if not, which hand he is attacking with. If he elects to dual wield, he attacks and parries with both weapons at 15%; if he does not dual wield, he attacks with his nominated weapon at 90% and parries with both at 90%. On mature reflection he decides that a bit of practice and training might be best before he tries dual wielding in combat. Our hero has a DEX SR of 1, a SIZ SR of 2, the broadsword has an SR of 2, and the dagger has an SR of 4. If our hero were to use dual wielding in combat, he would attack once with the broadsword in SR 5 and once with the dagger in SR 7 with an attack chance of 15% for each attack. Once our hero has trained his dual wield broadsword / dagger skill to 100% he is able to split attacks and would hit once with the broadsword in SR 5, once with the dagger in SR 7, and a second time with the broadsword in SR10. Note that because of the high SR of the dagger he cannot hit more than once regardless of his skill. If his SIZ SR had been 1 instead of 2 he could potentially hit three times with the broadsword (SR’s 4, 8, & 12) and twice with the dagger (SR’s 6 & 12), assuming his skill was high enough to allow that many attacks. So, what do you think? I’ve tried to make it a bit more “true to life” without adding too much complexity - I think I have made using two weapons quite a bit less effective than the current rules allow, and made dual wielding two weapons quite a bit more effective, and in the process added a pretty steep hill for the players to climb to get it, that has to be climbed in game and not during character creation.

Thanks for looking that up, but its not very hopeful for my poor old Humakti. It's also a pretty awesome bit of fluff for role playing. I had already done something like this for the character I created - I took the event where he could kill a clan member during character creation and changed it to a kinsman, and as a result his tribe and clan cast him out

Maybe gimped is a bit too strong a word, but I get the feeling from reading the rules (and reading here) that magic is going to dominate high end play, and not having a large pool of rp to draw on will be very disadvantageous. If I am right the munchkin option for meat shielding will probably be another cult without a hard rp limit. I always thought the no returning from the dead was a bit of a non event - DI allows you to avoid the death blow (and killing the other guy first helps as well)

That's what I was going on as well. It all hinges on what they mean when they say "compatible". I translated that to mean friendly or associated, but that might just be me being overly optimistic. Without the ability to gain multiple rp pools Humakti are going to be pretty gimped when it comes to high end play, so I hope I am right.

Thanks for the explanation. That is a much kinder way of viewing it than i had. to be clear, i'm not with a group at the moment, i'm coming back to RQ after a very long absence and just trying to get my head around the new rules. I haven't actually played the game since RQ2 was out