Rodney Dangerduck

11 minutes ago, davecake said:

(Ambush) It’s almost always dishonourable

It's not listed as a cause of dishonor.  (Assuming opponents are armed)  Maybe it should be - I'm struggling with just what "Honor" means and frankly it seems pretty subjective.   Many Humakti do avoid ambushing, including fellow PCs which causes good friction.

One point about Honor (and other Passions) is that, in typical roleplaying, they are supposed to go up and down.  Argrath consorts with plenty of dishonorable types yet is still considered "honorable".

46 minutes ago, Thaz said:

So huge obvious runes...yeah. I think you made my point. Cheers

 

Huge?  She is wearing no cloak, not moving, and you are standing 10 yards away in perfect lighting.  Far different from battle.

Also, see any runes on the others?  Any at all???

1 hour ago, soltakss said:

Anyone using Sword Trance is probably going to have a great big Death Rune, and probably a Truth Rune, emblazoned on their armour, helm or shield. Humakti are not hard to spot

Most 21 year old "I just rolled up a character" scrounged for their armor at Gringles.  They have a mishmash of stuff.

Here's Naimless - Runes, but far from "great big".  Put her in a helmet and have the wind blow the cloak around and they are invisible.

Here's Kallyr - Runes are more visible but could be covered or hard to see at any distance

1 hour ago, Thaz said:

generally speaking your going to be able to pick out the dangerous professional warriors from their kit, runes and stance.

Your GMs are very generous letting the PCs

1. do more scouting, setting up ambushes (I envy you here, wish we had more of that)
2. know what's going on (I prefer more fog of battle and think that's more realistic)

BTW, my one actual experience with a PC casting Sword Trance was in Snakepipe Hollow, so yes, we did pretty much start in melee.  Would be somewhat different in the hills of Sartar and much different on the plains of Prax.

4 minutes ago, Thaz said:

_every single character in the book has face tats_ its the norm

Plus great sword and charging is likely good enough. 

They aren't wearing helmets.  And you are standing about 10 feet away.

Interestingly, the only time I've seen Sword Trance in practice, that character had broadsword & shield.

I agree, anybody using Greatsword is a bad ass worthy of targeting!

1 minute ago, Thaz said:

 They're pretty obvious from the game art. And hiding them? Oh I think thats an instant dishonourable action right there.  And yes Harmast would be treated with extreme prejudice as well. 

Its a fairly easy scan roll

The combatants are wearing leather padding, metal armor, possibly cloaks, closed helms, etc.  Very likely the runes are covered.  All completely Honorable. Tell me how that's an easy scan roll, especially at any distance.

Our meeting encounters in Sartar have started at fairly close distances due to hills, woods, etc.  Possibly wrong assumptions by our GM.  Prax would be different.

13 minutes ago, Thaz said:

Anyone with heavy armour and great weapons and sporting a Death Rune

This begs the question: at what range can you spot an opponents runes?  What roll is needed?  And what if they are under clothing?  As for nice armor and great weapons, Harmast the Issaries qualifies.

I reject the whole "of course you can instantly recognize the Humakti at range" argument.

@Thaz I merely assumed a fair meeting engagement.  You are correct, ambushes change everything.  And a lot of that depends on GM.  When we defended Apple Lane we only had a couple hours to prepare so our traps and ambushes were minimal.

BTW, Humakti can ambush.  Unless they have that geas.  (Or change the hypothetical Humakhti to Babs Gor)

9 hours ago, davecake said:

If you know someone is Tranced, good organised opponents can also use it against you

Sure.  Lets say your PCs encounter opponents, one of whom turns out to be Sword Tranced.  You figure that out after a few rounds.  Your party is well drilled (sure!) and pulls back.

1. A couple of your front line fighters are likely down by the time you "know". 
   1. Unlucky ones lie there dead, or F.I. and bleeding
   2. Lucky ones skedaddle back, then require Heal Body Rune Spells and lots of MP. 
   3. Suddenly, the total cost in Rune Points and MP expended is pretty equal! 
2. You take a couple of rounds pulling back, using Mobility or similar.  (that's more MP spent!)
3. Net result - you are down a couple of front line fighters and temporarily disorganized.  Both sides have used roughly the same magic.  But their guy is still Tranced for ~14 more minutes.
4. Your opponents have a couple of rounds to do stuff too. 
   1. Maybe the Sword Tranced guy hides behind a tree or a pavise to avoid your missile fire.  Standoff.
   2. As you pull back, they get off a few free potshots with missiles or spells.
   3. Maybe they decide to declare victory and leave.  Sword Tranced guy is not berserk.
   4. Meanwhile, your unlucky fighters bleed to death.  Or get looted.  Or dragged away

2 minutes ago, soltakss said:

Sorry, but if I face someone who seems to be in a trance and has a huge skill with a sword

And how do you tell this?  As somebody else pointed out, they are probably wearing a full helm.  You are pretty busy yourself casting protective magics, screaming at a companion to look out for the archers in the flank, and the actual fighting.  Sure, you will notice, but it takes some time.

How do you know if they have "a huge skill"?  For a round or two, it may just be luck.  My very first RQ battle, 40+ years ago, a trollkin impaled me 3 straight rounds, and I parried with large shield all three times.  All at <50% chance.  Apparently we had cast Trances on ourselves?

I agree with you , in a few rounds it should be pretty obvious what is happening.  But that's a few rounds of an opponent completely negating your melee fighters - your doughty Orlanthi and Trolls at ~100%, who normally do pretty well, are all 0% for a few rounds.  And a couple go down.

Taking out two enemy front line fighters for 1 Rune Point and 10MP is a very good deal.

And, when the entranced player is a PC, making fellow PC Orlanthi and Troll etc. feel like feeble children is also a problem in play balance.

4 minutes ago, soltakss said:

A 190%Sword vs a 110% Sword equates to 100% Sword Attack vs 20% Sword Parry and 100% Sword Attack vs 180% Sword Parry,

No.  It equates to a 20% Sword Attack vs. a 100% Sword Parry.

You are very lucky to parry the entranced Humakti, AND you are very lucky to hit them.

7 minutes ago, Joerg said:

At 15 percent, they have a 3% chance for a special. The odds suck, but after a dozen dead mooks lying about, slippery ground rules are in order. Make a DEXx3 roll or halve your attack and parry because of the lack of footing.

So, your argument that Sword Trance isn't overpowered is that a dozen competent fighters, each using roughly 5 MP worth of spells (Fanaticism + Bladesharp / Protection etc...) will defeat it, at the loss of only 11?

You have just proven how freaking awesome it is.  Thanks for your support!

14 minutes ago, Joerg said:

 

@Rodney Dangerduck Yes, +110% to parrry is great, but an 75% advanced mook with fanaticism still has a chance greater than 5% to hit. Add a bit of bladesharp, and your mook attrition will be better.

Wolves etc. will lose a few attackers, then draw back, and play the waiting game

The Ewok traps cannot be parried,

Even if the fanatic "advanced mook" gets in a lucky hit at his 15% chance or whatever, 95% chance it gets parried and does no real damage.  Meanwhile, about one mook a round goes down, loses a limb, etc...

That's a 15 minute waiting game.  Surely the party can figure out something in that time...  If not, they deserve to lose.

Sorry, I have no idea what Ewok traps have to do with Runequest or Glorantha, you've lost me there.

7 hours ago, Joerg said:

That limits the spell to 11 magic points, or the swordperson will be out of attacks for two melee rounds. And while 110% is an insanely high boost, it is nowhere near the "plus 240%" effects that have been made the strawman here. There are characters who can get into this region with Fanaticism, a one point spirit spell. If you have mooks (like cannon-fodder trollkin or bagogi males), fanaticise them.

In my experience, the primary benefit of Sword Trance is that they can't hit you.  If you can manage a special parry, (roughly 40% chance) their weapon is in trouble.  If they use natural weapons, they end up harming themselves.  That monster trying to bite you misses, you parry, they take roughly D8+D4+5 to the head and probably fall down.  Three wolves try to bite you, good chance you take out all three in one round.  And that doesn't even count your attack!

+110% is plenty awesome.

Having actually played in a game where a PC cast Sword Trance.

 1) yes, in a few melee rounds the opposition got their act together and dismissed it.

 2) in the meantime, as I recall, he took down two opponents and disarmed another (special parry vs. miss will do that). Their Scorpionmen intelligently stopped biting and stinging because it was just damaging themselves!

 3) The round after it was dismissed, the PC obviously thought the spell was very effective because he immediately recast it.

 4) The other party fighters, including my ZZ Dark Troll, were completely ignored by the bad guys casters.  All their focus was on the Hunakhti.

33 minutes ago, davecake said:

Sword Trance puts people in a Trance,

Good point, assuming the rules interp becomes (or stays?) official, and a reasonable GM.

Would be a fun trick for Eurnali: "I pretend I'm in a Sword Trance" to draw wasted Dispels.

4 minutes ago, davecake said:

It is - specific means specifying an effect or target, not naming the spell. Explicitly in the Dispel Magic description. 

I'll admit the wording is fuzzy, but both spells talk about "cast against a specific spell".  Many GMs would not allow "the spell that makes him fighty".

If they do, they should also require a lot of wasted casts on a tough enemy fighter who has up Bladesharp and Truesword (and Protection 4) but not Sword Trance.

2 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

I would rule that it matters whether you target the person other weapon. You could often just guess-target a Humakti's sword, assuming that there's something important there, probably Truesword.

That is a good point, you can target the person or sword.  Sword Trance affects the person though...

@davecakeRead how Dismiss works.  You must "magically discern", or otherwise guess, the target spell, else it will hit defensive spells first.  Depending how the GM wants to play things, Sword Trance may be tricky, especially if the target also has Protection, Bladesharp, etc.

That said, I might try my favorite spell on the enTranced Humakti: Fanaticism.  That's actually my favorite spell against most anybody.

52 minutes ago, dumuzid said:

 

Unless they've got Darksee or equivalent magic the first Kimantoring response team up against that berserker can take most of the Sword Trance bonus away just by having their Argan Argari shroud the offender in a nice deep Create Shadow.  Then an Orlanth initiate with Darksee (or Darksense) can crack em with a Thunderbolt, and a Gorian can step in to chop up what's left.

e: or ex-Kimantoring House Guards after the Esrolian Civil War, but the same spread of magic and war cults applies

All true.  But that's a heck of a lot of work to take out a guy who used a mere 1 point Rune Spell and some MP.

The point isn't that Sword Trance is unbeatable.  The point is that the effort to take out Sword Trance is far far incommensurate with the effort to cast the Sword Trance.  And the point is that nobody is saying "Oh my god, he cast Bear's Strength (or some other low value Rune Spell), everybody flee for your lives and take cover while we call on the SWAT team".