davecake

One of my own mystic insights is that no one ‘gains’ a Seventh Soul, they just become aware of the seventh part we all have - and that there is only one single Seventh Soul that we all connect to. It makes no sense to talk of Jar-Eels Seventh Soul, or Argraths Seventh Soul - it’s all the One. Just some people see it better. I’m sure it is believed by some in Glorantha. Noticing this is Illumination, a moment of unity, a discovery of part of ourselves. But yes, there are parts of ourselves that not yet noticed, but eventually we all will (perhaps in a different life entirely).

Do you think that every entity that grants rune magic, say a minor spirit cult like Black Fang or the Father of Independents or Firshala, has totally controlled of the power flow around them, and is invulnerable to almost all magic? If no, then linking the ability to grant Rune magic to the Infinity Rune is wrong. And I don’t think calling a City god a god rather than a spirit cult is of deep significance - it’s usually basically a spirit cult that sustains itself because of a stable community. I’d be much more specific - militarizing wyters to enhance the ability of a group of magicians to work together is made practical by Illumination (my theory is that Illuminates have already experienced egolessness, and so are able to combine their consciousness without mental trauma). But that’s not the only way to militarize wyters at all, far from it - most communities just militarize them as a source of defensive magic. Armies militarize them by creating regimental wyters, taking their literally esprit de corps and turning it into a source of magical enhancement and defensive magic. I’d like to see more about this, but I think it’s common that a regimental wyter has abilities that include casting spirit magic, or even Rune magic, on its community members, or even enemies, using only magic points - so can significantly influence a battle regularly. And I think this is quite supported by the lore, and the example of She That Strikes From Afar in the bestiary indicates it’s absolutely envisaged as how a wyter may operate within the rules. And of course the wyter can freely scout and keep watch, engage attacking spirits in spirit combat, and aid its priest. In wargame terms, a strong regimental wyter can simply mean a high MgF. A zero RF (so Defensive Spirit Magic) for really exceptional units like the Bullocks (the White Bull followers), or the Bloodspillers or the Steel Sword Legion, probably also indicates a particularly applicable wyter ability.that is potent against attacking spirits, and it is pretty rare eg perhaps the Steel Sword Legion are able to use mass Truesword to carve up spirits. But it’s only the LCM and the SMU and a small number of draconic related units (Trachdodons and the Inhuman King) that have a plain RF and a spirit, and so can attack as a coordinated magical group at range by non-physical means. I think it is a unique innovation of the Lunars, that is then replicated by Argrath (combining EWF and Arkati techniques with Lunar knowledge obtained from Lunar turncoats such as the Red School of Masks). We don’t even have much evidence it happened in the Gbaji Wars - so while it certainly would be an era with Illuminates involved in warfare in sufficient numbers, it probably wasn’t known at that time. But Gods manifesting on the battlefield, as in the Battle of Night and Day, is both extraordinarily rare (it doesn’t seem to happen again until Steelfall, and then not again until Humakt etc oppose the Red Goddess) and a different phenomenon. I think the EWF magic is what allows the SMU to create a wyter for a group of very disparate magicians - not a natural community - and manifest it. I think this improves on the LCM, the Lunar magicians are generally tightly linked by cult and years of training. And it seems to be quite linked to draconic ideas - eggs, dragon knowledge via the Snakepipe magic, etc. I would not extrapolate too much from the Trachodons or the Inhuman King either. It might simply be a best approximation to peculiar abilities of those units - perhaps the Trachodons can all Discorporate, or the Inhuman King is just manifesting its dragon nature - but the effects are not unusual enough to get their own rules. (‘Physical magicians’ in wargame terms have probably recurred throughout Gloranthan history, but as rare units, outside of the God Learners organising specialist sorcerer units etc.)

More or less, yes (at least according to the God Learners), though I tend more to emphasise the variant side. Seems to be a different species of lion (probably different coloured manes?), and not be entirely the same as far as magic and other details. And certainly seem to be different in their modern cult forms - Basmoli, in Prax or elsewhere, seem to be true hsunchen, the Durbaddath cult is no longer that (and hasn’t been for centuries, if it ever was). It seems to mostly be a hereditary warrior cult, and closely associated with specific military units like the Lasadag Lions. Possibly they don’t go ‘berserk’ like the Basmoli? The Lasadag Lions have cool magical shields and standards. And of course is closely associated with the Lion side of the Carmanian ‘lion bull rivalry’ and the lion as a symbol of the Carmanian nobility cult of Carmanos, who conquered a lion as a youth and wore its skin as a symbol. So I doubt it is seen as a hunter cult in modern Peoria - it’s been known as a warriors cult in Carmanian since before the Dawn.

And I disagree. They are orthogonal concepts. Minor divine beings can become wyters, and so can beings that are of purely sorcerous or shamanic origin. City gods might be called gods, but that doesn’t seem to mean anything in particular - some are heroes or ancestors in origin clearly. And city gods granting rune spells is the same as hero cults or spirit cults. There is also reason to assume that something like this happened. I tend to think they might be different, though, and Pavis just unified them into one cult (the wyter being formed from the Faceless Stone Statue). You don’t necessarily have to have a ritual to unify the founder (or any other being) with the wyter, you just need to have a ritual (a form of HeroQuest) in which they become the wyter. The does not have an intrinsic personality - it has to be an existing spirit that becomes the wyter. I feel almost the opposite - wyters are formed from community passions, mysticism seems opposed to allowing yourself to be controlled by your passions. But the manifestation of wyters as group entities in a way that can be controlled and enhanced into weapon of war, and without having the minds of those involved shredded by the experience, seems to be associated with mysticism. I think both protecting communities with wyters, and mysticism, are age old - but combining them to create magical military units is an innovative and complex new thing, something only the Lunars had successfully done before Argrath.

Some cities venerate the founder, such that they become a deity in their own right, in some cases the wyter of the city. But sometimes they can be venerated separately. The statuses of founder, patron deity, city god, and wyter are all separate statuses, and not every deity has all four, or cares about them. But there is a general tendency for entities to be more than one of these. And/or something else related, like the spirit of the place that the city is built on. I think of this more as one of those hero tricks, maybe - a founder might harvest some of the power of the community themselves while they are still alive, but then become the wyter on death? But it’s very much one among many many options. Literally a wyter is just something formed by linking a community with an existing (or created) spirit. We know it is done by HeroQuest, and there is nothing to suggest that the spirit of the founder is any less suitable than any other spirit. Not at all obvious to me - no reason I can see that a city god is any more special than any other entity able to grant a single Rune spell, be it a hero cult or small spirit cult. There is no reason to assume that the Elder races follow the same customs, or think wyters are a good idea (they are both a strength and a weakness). Or that they have those particular tendencies. But FWIW - we actually have no indication that dragonewts have the same forms of passionate connection to their communities required to form wyters, they have their own strange approach to passions. But I don’t think the Inhuman King is a wyter in any case, if the Dragons Eye or Dragon Pass dragonewt community has a wyter, he might be its ‘priest’. Trolls seem to regard ancestors as most appropriate for wyters, but no reason they wouldn’t also have particular great darkness spirits or spirits of place. The ranking matriarch is likely th ‘priest’ of the wyter, but if it is an ancestress they won’t be the only people able to speak to it. Wyters of clans (normally a founding ancestor) are probably more important than wyters of places most often. Great trees may important for elf communities - but intelligent great trees can also be the ‘priest’, the wyter is more likely more like a powerful dryad or forest spirit. For the Mostali, again it is a bit unclear if they are usually loyal to communities other than their castes, though wars between Mostali suggests so. But if they are, note that wyters can be created from sorcerous constructs created for the purpose, which sounds quite Mostali. But also powerful intelligent elementals, or spirits of place (eg the spirit of the mountain they live within) are possibilities. Probably Diamond dwarfs act as the ‘priests’ for communities of sufficient size.

The Seaslaver artefact at the centre of the Puzzle Canal is an oddity - it is a Sea based artefact, and has captured a sea demon (Nuckelavee) that can not even survive in fresh water, both far from the sea attached to a river. The Puzzle Canal is created by an EWF demi-god priest, Labrygon. But that doesn't mean the Seaslaver artefact was created by Labrygon. Why would an EWF priest have a Sea based artefact, or have captured a sea demon? The adventure implies it is either looted from a Giant Cradle, or is a God Learner artefact, and the latter seems more likely Why would the God Learners have brought such an artefact to a place far from the sea? Originally, to fight the Waertagi, obviously! Nuckelavee could even be a demon that served the Waertagi (in its past life it attacked shore dwellers), and was then captured by the Seaslaver (it has been imprisoned about 150 years). Another similar demon could be in Sogs Ruins, or Nuckelavee summonable by some magical device there, potentially setting him free from his imprisonment.

One persons draconic taint is another persons draconic insight, obviously. I'm not sure it always has to be communicated in Auld Wyrmish, though it certainly did at first - and it is probably necessary for any real Dragon Magic, as that is something learnt from Dragonnewts. But I certainly agree on the 'often limited' part. The 'Common Worship' EWF cults are entirely theist in method, and I don't think grant any mystic insight at all. And I think that many of the 'short cuts' are very confused and do not grant any real mystic insight either To be honest, the Path of Immanent Mastery comes across very much as a satire of 'new age' pseudo-mystic gurus, in every way but granting some real magic (that resembles dragon magic externally, but in no way internally, another satirical touch). Note that while Illumination skill has lots of useful things you can do with it, mostly mastering ones own self and relation to other powers in various ways, at least once you are Illuminated, Charismatic Wisdom has absolutely no use except to prove oneself to the cult, it doesn't even have any use in the cults magic, it can't even be used to teach the skill to others. And note that despite having a wide variety of spells, none of them have any non-physical effects at all, and those only on the body of the caster (if you allow that 'breathing fire' is still an effect on the casters body, anyway). And 'none ever became True Dragons' is another way of saying they can't obtain the mystic goal. It has no linguistic associations that I know of, I suspect much of it is vocabulary unique to the cult, and I suspect much of it non-linguistic forms such as artwork, unique symbols and diagrams, wordless tunes, dances etc. Note that reading a document about it is only a source for research, and contains little coherent information anyway. There is absolutely no indication that any of them usually do attain any spiritual benefits, or non-physical magical ones, whatsoever And no indication that Auld Wyrmish is involved in its teaching in any way.

I think you could make a great lozenge trotting campaign in the style of a classic Call of Cthulhu campaign. Keep getting clues that, once you have defeated one villain, lead you to the next, until your inevitable confrontation with the heart of the conspiracy in mysterious Chern Durel!

Use it to replace benevolent Earth worship with a transactional version that involves human sacrifice, and as the Hero Wars crank up and things such as the giant winter raise the threat of mass starvation, human sacrifice on an increasingly wholesale level. From which Bova Mada Kelen Nomada the head of the cult, and presumably some of his power shared wth lesser leaders such as Alanthore (and, of great relevance to me, Livia Tarinda in the East Isles), command over a host of tormented ghosts, the sacrifice victims 'drowned in the blessings of the Blood Sun'.

Some other things that are happening around the same time as the Monster Empire that contribute to the general madness and horror, and tie it in to the East. Greg wrote that the Blood Sun cult would be revealed to have infiltrated the Lunar way, as the human sacrifice aspects of the HonEel are because the god Alanthor killed the elf god of maize (in Hero Wars era sources like Imperial Lunar Handbook), and Alanthor was actually the same as the Blood Sun (also described as an enemy spirit that the Lunar empire has conquered and can use to attack their enemies in the ILH). Of course all this is rejected from current canon, but doesn't mean it may not be true IYG, or that it may not reappear in a different form. Regardless of the canonicity of the ILH material about Alanthore the spirit/deity, the prophet Alanthore (guide page 302) spreads the Red Sun cult, claiming those cities that accept it and practice human sacrifice will be protected from Pentan raiders - the truth is, its the same Blood Sun cult worshipped by many of the Pentan raiders (among the Solar tribes). And Alanthore is part of a vast intercontinental conspiracy to spread the cult (Guide p. 267). And then when Sheng Seleris reappears, he doesn't just go back to work against the Lunar Empire, he also pays attention to matters in the East. And we know from the Cryptic Verses of the Yellow Calendar, Guide page 745 (illustration), 746 (description), that when Sheng returns ('the lustrous solar son once pent in hell'), he defeats Can Shu and the Blood Sun cult, and they pay obeisance to him. Sheng now has at his command both the Blood Sun (worshipped by many Pentans, secretly powerful in the Lunar Empire, and as far East as the East Isles), and the shadowy criminal empire of Can Shu, including trolls, the poppy dust trade, and the 5 anti-elemental cults of Ignorance (the Earth Eater, Shadow Cancer, Solar Storm, Star Permutator, Secret Waters). On past form, Sheng often uses his conquered opponents from one area as his tools against another. So that is going to make things monstrous and weird for sure.

Almost nothing has been written about the Blood Sun, just three paragraphs in the Prosopaedia and a little bit more in the Black Sun writeup in Troll Gods. But the deity is known (via Greg) to be a significant part of the once planned Hero Wars story, the Blood Sun Epic, for Pent, and to a lesser extent the Lunar Empire, Kralorela and Ignorance, and the East Isles. The major NPCs that are central to this plot are all noted in the Guide, and include Alanthore in the Lunar Empire, An Lin Chao of Kralorela, Denker of Chern Durel, and Livia Tarinda of the East Isles. The Blood Sun is supposed to be linked to chaos cults in the West, and antigod cults in the East, and to have effectively infiltrated the cult of Hon-Eel, and is worshipped by some Pentan Solar Tribes. And the Cryptic Verses of the Yellow Calendar section of the Guide has the Blood Sun playing a significant role in the prophecies of the Hero Wars in the East, and there are significant appearances in the Black Dragon Pictoglyphs that contain the Uz prophecies about the Hero Wars as well. Does anyone know more about it, particularly its planned role in the Hero Wars?

If you know of things that are portents of the End Times or vast magical cataclysm, now is the time to use them! The Broos of the Black Pus, for example, are a heroplane enemy that only seems to show up at the end of an Age or when the whole world is near descruction. So of course have them show up, your PCs will hate them (they are utterly disgusting and also their vile disease drains skills, which your players will naturally super hate), and then will also learn of the implications of their presence. The end of an age has lots of awful threatening things. . There may be other enemies or beings whose presence indicates some similar crisis point, or just indicates the heroic otherworld interacting with the middle world - the Luatha in Slontos, the birth of new Mistress Race are examples that have already happened, we might get things like the Altinae in the middle world in force. The ancient Silver Age heroes return, because the actual land is threatened with physical destruction. Prophecies fulfilled should be happening all the time - the long prophecied return of ancient kings or powers thought long extinct (the Loper People are one example, the Waertagi another). Let disruptions to the status quo like become regular, even if you are unable to find the time for them to be truly as meaningful as you might want in your game, just let your PCs keep hearing about them in rumours and news from far off.

The RuneQuest Effect is all about intelligences from outside of Glorantha - your campaign contains several of them. Encourage your players that only drastic actions, ones that might only be possible now the Compromise has started to break down, can possibly save the clan/kingdom/empire/universe from the current crisis. Plans that somehow result in your PCs gaining vast magical power, at least for a short time, are likely to be particularly popular. By this stage any ongoing game has likely escalated so this is a not that unlikely organic result of play. When they have done so (or before they do, if you think your players will enjoy being the ironic pawns of fate), reveal that they have saved something, much as they set out to do, but have also broken reality in some vital ways. Yes, you stopped that prophecy coming true, but somehow have broken something important about the Sky/the Compromise/Time itself etc, or caused one of the portents of the End Times to come true, or the Stars to become Right. Rinse and repeat, and/or steal as many good and interesting ideas as you can from literature, other campaigns, etc and reveal/hint that the resulting weirdness is the result of all the well meaning hero types trying to stop the world getting worse (but just making it stranger). Absolutely lean into: mystic resolutions that draw on the most confusing non-beings (like Shadows Good Shadow) and non-events of that nature - things that exist and can only be understood in terms of what they are not, or other abstract philosophical conceptions about the familiar. It's the mystic end game, as those who cling to the more mundane nature of the Empire(s) keep being on the losing side of its internal struggles. the super weapons and incredible rituals they can use to defeat their enemies are of course often God Learner in nature. Once they are discovered, let the players become targets for beings like the Knowledge Assassins or the Gift Carriers - your PCs should succeed in evading them, the point is for them to know what they have become particularly if you use the Lunars and/or Eastern Myth and mysticism, so many of the extant powers and threats in the world are powers of Illusion (the Glamour of the Lunars, the Black Sun, Avanadur returned), so who can even tell what is real? And the mystics teach that greater secret Truth can be found within Illusion, but is that really helping you tell what is good from bad, right from wrong? almost everyone is Illuminated (at least of the PCs and their enemies, and their allies too, and it always was for the elite of the Empire). The sides becoming inclusingly confused. What the mystics and Illuminates tell you is 'right' seem increasingly unmoored from conventional ideas of morality, especially traditional theist ones. Plans may depend on subverting your own cult - of defeating those who have subverted it. huge world crises taking the form of continental level natural disasters abound - the only solutions are either vast and world re-shaping, or so magical they subvert reality itself.

Yes, the mystic isn't setting out to discover the deep secret knowledge of the world (though they might discover some along the way). They are discarding misapprehensions, irrelevancies, and distractions. The quest is to have nothing left to discard. And there is only one Nothing.

And I'm absolutely NOT saying that some of the magic related to mysticism and Illumination, in the same way as Rune Magic from spirit cults is related to shamanism but isn't shamanism, shouldn't differ by source. The Lunar Magic of the Red Goddess requires Illumination, and is clearly restricted to that single cult. Dragon magic should only be accessible from Draconic sources. There seem to be magical forms noted as being associated with particular Eastern mystic paths, such as the areas of calm and peace that surround the practitioners of Nendurens Stillness. And there seem to be some differences possible in terms of the powers attained by different paths to Illumination (again, compare shamanism, with the few unusual Shamanic Abilities like Conceal Fetch). Some Illumination powers are known to almost all Illuminants (Secret Knowledge, Overcome Runes and Passions, and Embrace Runic Opposites). Some are not known to all schools, and all may differ in details (for example, Sense Illumination in Others doesn't specify how long it takes, reliability, if it can be concealed, etc, and it may vary widely between schools). And it is noted in the description of Illumination that some Illuminants may manifest entirely different powers - presumably non-Nysaloran paths particularly. I think almost certainly Nysaloran Riddles are restricted to the Nysaloran paths (though that may included Arkati, whose knowledge of Illumination appears to come from Nysalor). The Nysaloran tradition is not a single tradition, but a cluster of related ones - there will be some differences between eg the Sisterhood of the New Consciousness and the Order of Day, though nothing that would put them in opposition beyond normal politics. But would that justify making Illumination knowledge obtained from the two sources different skills? No. What if someone who had some knowledge of Illumination goes on a heroquest, meets Rashoran or confronts a dragon, and gains some more insight? Is there a useful game purpose served by making those insights adding to a completely different skill, in many cases making them completely useless? Noting that we can make different traditions distinguished in ways aside from the main rules mechanics. I think keeping track of mystical insight by carefully treating it is completely separate and categorising it by source as a separate skill adds nothing to the game. From a strictly game design point of view, we could theoretically keep subdividing many skills in such a way. Distinguish Kralorelan alchemy from Manirian. Bureaucracy by Orlanthi or Lunar or Western. Farming separated into Plow farming and Rice farming. Whether it helps the game, and whether it represents the 'reality' we are trying to simulate with the game well (thus increasing the verisimilitude of the game), are things that we consider in game design, and there is no one perfect answer for sure - there are plenty of skills where we do subdivide them in that way, but it is always a conflict between conflicting priorities. But does it help the game first, informed by what we are trying to simulate, is a good start, noting that increased complexity is always a cost that needs to be provide benefits to be worth doing. I do not think in the case of sources of Illuminated insight it simulates the 'reality' well to split it into separate skills (and admittedly this is informed by my own study of real world mysticism quite a bit, but also by repeated references to its universality in Gloranthan sources), but I also think it does not help the game to throw a significant penalty to effectiveness of an already obscure and hard to improve skill in the path of those PC heroes trying exactly to do the sort of things (gaining insights through interaction with foreign powers that help them understand some of the settings core conflicts, particularly) that make for a cool game.