Fealty & Homage

[Giant Ice Spider]

OK, the Fealty/Homage rules in Book of the Estate are confusing me. I get that you have an Homage Passion for your highest-ranking liege and a Fealty Passion for everyone else, but, these things I can't wrap my head around:

1) Say I have a PK in my campaign who has Homage (Earl of X). They then, by whatever means, acquire lands lands from the Earl of Y. Does the PK's Homage Passion stay with the Earl of X, go to the Earl with the better Glory, or something else?

2) How do you generate the new Homage (for the new liege) and new Fealty (for the old liege)? Is the old Homage (for the old liege) ever used?

Thanks in advance,

-Spider

[Hzark10]

BoE, p. 18 specifically says, "...If  a knight already owes homage to a lord, and he receives a holding from a higher-ranking lord - typically the king - the fortunate knight is released from his original oath..." (bold-emphasis mine). So the question now becomes, is Earl of Y considered to be higher-ranking than Earl of X?  If so, yes, he can transfer his homage. The rules say this is expected.  If it is deemed that no, they are equal in rank, or Earl of Y is lower, there is no Homage transfers. You generate the new homage according to the rules on p. 19.

As far as the old homage goes, I would rewrite as Loyalty (Lord),. 

[Atgxtg]

4 hours ago, Giant Ice Spider said:

OK, the Fealty/Homage rules in Book of the Estate are confusing me. I get that you have an Homage Passion for your highest-ranking liege and a Fealty Passion for everyone else, but, these things I can't wrap my head around:

1) Say I have a PK in my campaign who has Homage (Earl of X). They then, by whatever means, acquire lands lands from the Earl of Y. Does the PK's Homage Passion stay with the Earl of X, go to the Earl with the better Glory, or something else?

As Hzard10 pointed out, you only need to change Homage when swearing to a higher ranking lord-at least in theory. The situation you presented here is one of those sticky situations where a knight could end up in the middle if his two liege lords were to war against each other. Ultimately that is what this all boils down to. If push comes to shove, just who is the knight expected to back.That's why the higher ranking lord is an easy out. 

Historically and realsitically however, itwas always a bit of a mess. Every lord expects his vassals to be loyal to him, regardless of other allgiences.

Quote

2) How do you generate the new Homage (for the new liege)

Just as if he were a generating it without the other Homage passion. Perhaps with addtional modfiers based upon previous events, rewards granted from the new liege and so forth.

Quote

and new Fealty (for the old liege)? Is the old Homage (for the old liege) ever used?

Just transfer the old Homage score over to the new Loyalty score. Keep in mind too that if it is considerably higher than the knight new Homage score, his true loyalties might still lie with the old lord.

 

Part of the reason why this all seems difficult to "wrap your head around" is that in real life it was rarely as cut and dried as presented in the rules. Typically have two liege lords was like dating two women at the same time. It's also why families would often send sons to fight for  both sides in a conflict- to ensure that no matter how things worked out the manor would remain in the family. 

Edited May 16, 2020 by Atgxtg

[Morien]

Not much to add to Hzark10's and Atgxtg's answers.

As for what qualifies as a higher-ranking lord, I would look at BotW title glory, although I would probably keep bannerets and vassal knights in the same tier still. I.e. Barons outrank knights, Counts & Dukes outrank Barons and Kings outrank everyone else. Even then, I might make an additional compromise to make it just Knights - All Barons (including Counts and Dukes) - Kings. Usually, it is not a problem anyway since the default start is as vassals of Count Roderick, so only the King would outrank him.

Edited May 16, 2020 by Morien