How exactly is a knock-back attack supposed to work?

[Seldak]

I'm working through the combat spot rules in preparation and am puzzled by the knock-back attack rules.

First, whether you have a shield or not, you roll to attack. So far, so good. Then the confusion begins.

 

The example states "Bregdan...wrestles a SIZ 14 opponent on the Resistance Table".

How do you wrestle an opponent on the Resistance Table? That table is only for comparing attributes, not skills. Is this a STR:SIZ test? Or STR:STR?

The shield example also speaks of "A sucessful Resistance Table roll" without mentioning the minute detail of what actually to resist!?!

 

Am I better off ignoring these messy rules that can never have been used as written or playtested and just make stuff up on the fly?

How do you handle this at your table? Any insight would be appreciated.

[soltakss]

If you wrestle an opponent, use STR vs STR.

If you shoulder-barge into an opponent, trying to knock them over, use SIZ vs SIZ.

If you try to pick them up and throw them over a wall, use STR vs SIZ.

That's how I do it in RQ and I assume the same applies to Magic World.

[Seldak]

Seems to me like a little bit of colum a and a little bit of column b. I think I'm going with attacker's STR vs defender's SIZ, since it's not just a normal wrestling attack and heavier people are harder to push around.

The same resistance propably should apply to the attempt to knock back using a shield.

So the usual sequence for a knock-back attack would be:

1) Attack roll (either shield skill or wrestling). May be dodged to avoid knock-back though not parried.

2) Resistance table roll (STR:SIZ or whatever you prefer)

3) If not resisted, defender is knocked back for (attacker's STR - defender's SIZ) meters (or yards, text doesn't seem to be too sure about that) and must succeed at an agility check or goes sprawling.

4) If attack was made with a shield also apply damage from shield as a weapon.

To quote Jubal Early from Firefly: "Does that seem right to you?"

Edited April 5, 2021 by Seldak

[NickMiddleton]

On 4/4/2021 at 11:24 PM, Seldak said:

I'm working through the combat spot rules in preparation and am puzzled by the knock-back attack rules.

First, whether you have a shield or not, you roll to attack. So far, so good. Then the confusion begins.

 

The example states "Bregdan...wrestles a SIZ 14 opponent on the Resistance Table".

How do you wrestle an opponent on the Resistance Table? That table is only for comparing attributes, not skills. Is this a STR:SIZ test? Or STR:STR?

The shield example also speaks of "A sucessful Resistance Table roll" without mentioning the minute detail of what actually to resist!?!

 

Am I better off ignoring these messy rules that can never have been used as written or playtested and just make stuff up on the fly?

How do you handle this at your table? Any insight would be appreciated.

OK, the full rules text of the Knock-Back spot rule is:

Quote

KNOCK-BACK ATTACK
A Knock-Back attack is generally performed with a shield, pushing the defender back and hopefully down, and at the same time slamming the rim of the shield up against 
his or her chin to stun and disorient. An Adventurer knocks back an opponent one yard for each point that the attacker’s STR exceeds the foe’s SIZ, with a minimum result of 1 yard. Two sorts of Knock-Back attacks exist: neither can be parried:

• A successful Wrestle roll for an attacker without a shield. Example: Bregdan is STR 16. He successfully wrestles a SIZ 14 opponent on the Resistance Table and knocks him back two meters. The opponent must receive a successful Agility roll, or go sprawling as well.

• A successful attack roll with a shield. Use the skill chance for the shield. A successful  Resistance Table roll drives back the opponent for two meters. (A successful dodge can cancel a attack of the same success level.) Hit point damage for the shield also applies. An opponent failing to dodge must make a successful Agility roll, or go sprawling.

So CASE 1: Make a Wrestle attack roll, IF successful, make a STR vs SIZ test on Resistance table IF successful, push target back by (Attackers STR-opponents SIZ) in meters. Bregdan wins, so pushes his opponent back 2m.

I would allow bonuses to the attackers effective STR for degrees of success on the Wrestle roll (say x 1.5 for a special and x 2 for a critical): so a relatively weak wrestler (STR 8 ) who is very skilful can have a chance to knock back even a mountain of an opponent (SIZ18).

CASE 2: Make an attack roll with the shield IF successful do Shield damage (plus db if applicable) to opponent. Then match attackers STR vs Opponents SIZ on resistance table, and if successful push target back by (Attackers STR-opponents SIZ) in meters.

 If the attacker gets special or critical results on the Shield attack, I'd give them the choice of EITHER enhancing the damage from the shield strike OR improving their STR for the Resistance table test to push their opponent back.

In both cases the skill roll is made first to allow the STR vs SIZ test on the resistance table.

Does that help?

Edited April 9, 2021 by NickMiddleton

[Seldak]

This sounds very reasonable, though I will ignore the success level bonus for now to keep things simple. I specifically chose MW for simplicity's sake and to get a grasp on BRP Fantasy, before propably switching to the BGB later on, once I have a better understanding of the consequences of the optional rules.

I still have some questions regarding my interpretation of the wrestling rules in general but I'll open a seperate thread for that.

Thanks for the input so far!