Grappling problems

[rust]

The "Death Touch", "Quivering Palm" and "Finger of Death" skills are now obsolete. Watch out for the "Proctological Thumb".

So this is why Expendables has Proctology as an Advanced Medical Field, I always wondered

when and how that skill could come into play ...

[vagabond]

So, I thumbed through Elric! briefly (no pun intended) to see what it said WRT to Grappling and Wrestling. While there is no "Grappling" skill, the "Wrestling" skill covered the same area. The way Elric! (and Stormbringer 5) handled it, once you were successfully Wrestled (or Grappled) and held by an opponent, your opponent could do several things - disarm you, change positions, etc. However, if your opponent tried to either cause physical damage or knock you out, you could attempt a STR vs. STR roll to break free. This was in addition to your opponent needing to successfully roll his Wrestle skill each round to maintain control.

Anyway, I would rule either STR vs. STR, STR vs. SIZ, DEX vs. DEX or DEX vs. SIZ would all be appropriate in one way or another to allow a Grappled/Wrestled person to attempt to escape. I agree that, in real life, one held by a superior grappler/wrestler, there really isn't much you can do (within the rules, and often outside the rules), that perhaps, while the attacker continues to roll against Grapple successfully to keep the hold, that the defender could still try to roll Grapple to, in effect, parry the success, but needs a better quality result, in which case the defender than can attempt one of the above "stat" challenges to break free (I would allow the defender to choose either STR or DEX as the active stat to reflect his choice to either overpower or worm his way out of a hold respectively), and then decide which is the better passive stat to roll against (STR vs. STR or STR vs. SIZ for overpower, or DEX vs. STR or DEX vs. DEX to wriggle out). Now, if the stat vs. stat roll succeeds, I would still say the attacker is in a position to attempt to grapple/wrestle again to regain the hold, maybe a free attack with some penalty, but no defense allowed since the defender would have exhausted his defense to allow himself to break free.

Ian

[dragonewt]

While there is no "Grappling" skill, the "Wrestling" skill covered the same area.

Would this mean that the opponent is taken down to the ground as a result of a successful wrestle contest? Does this instance of the "wrestle" skill imply Greco-Roman wrestling?

Edit: Not wanting to push things too far; the meaning of that emoticon seems different for some reason.

[vagabond]

I think it was an attempt to cut down on the number of skills. Elric! introduced weapon classes, got rid of separate attack and parry skills, and reduced unarmed combat to kick, punch and wrestle. So, wrestle encompassed grappling, greco-roman wrestling, and whatever else.

However, I believe that the initial successful wrestle roll did not automatically indicate a take down. I believe a number of successes were necessary, and it may have also been one of the special maneuvers after the sequence of successful rolls.

Ian

[Nightshade]

I second icebrand. I've been grappled by ju-jitsu and aikido. As soon asthey have a good hold on you and lock your arms, they can comand your body to twist as they want. The human body has a 'way' it likes to bend. Trying to bend it the wrong way, results in your body moving to try and avoid the iminent broken joints. That's how some of the aikido throws work. It uses your strenghth against you.

Back to OP. I see it as a feature that once grappled, you can't get out.

The only way to escape is for an ally to intervene. This is why brazilian jujitsu, may win ultimate combat fighting matches, but doesn't work in your average street brawl. Once you're down on the ground, some one else will kick your head in.

As I noted, the effect of the rules is that anyone with a high Grapple uses it against any human opponent all the time, because its so hard to resist in the first place.

[icebrand]

However, he also said that the only way out of some legal Judo moves was an illegal judo move (finger in the eye, thumb up the backside, grabbing or pressing on the gonads, pressing on the throat, biting).

Disagree. The illegal move will only work if the person holding you does not want to do illegal moves himself. Judo comes from a martial art, and holding techinques are actually designed with a no holds barred fight in mind.

You got several pinning techniques (osaekomi) in judo / bjj:

Yoko Shiho / side control:

The opponent may try to go for your crotch with their hand closest to you (and then you break his arm with a triangle to his arm)

The opponent may try to use their free hand to go for your face, and then you break his elbow/shoulder with ude garami.

He may try to bite, but then again, you can headbutt his face, and he cant.

Kami shiho / 69: i don't use this much. Its VERY good for pinning someone, and unless you mess up, the opponent cant do much. He has both hands free to hit you in the back (which does not much damage, trust me) and you can hit him im the balls with both your hands.

Tate shiho / mount: he has both hands to defend, and you have both hands to pummel his face into a pulp. If he extends an arm, you can try jujigatame or ude garami (armlock and armbar); you may also go for chokes (like ezequiel or a hand triangle). This is one on the easiest controls to get out of, but its also a very bad spot to be.

Kesa gatame: the classic judo immobilization, you got hon kesa and kuzure kesa (the 2nd is way more effective). Really hard to get out of, and you can get choked and/or your arm can get snapped. You CAN try to eye gouge here, but it ends in the grappler just moving to another control position.

He related an instance where he had grabbed and immobilised someone, in his opinion, when that person stood up, picking this 20 stone (280 pound) person with one locked arm and slowly marched him out of the arena.

Actually, if that happens in competition the referee gives mate (stop) once the opponent lifts you off the mat. In real life, you get one people slamming another into the ground (most people cannot do that more than 1 or 2 times), and the other trying to break his arm (about 40/60 chances if both do it right; on a tatami i'd say 10/90). It usually ends bad to the one slamming the other (that's called daki age); it is more effective against triangle chokes.

So, although some moves seem very good, superior SIZ/STR will always have an impact. It doesn't matter how well you've grabbed someone, if they stick a thumb into your backside and move it around, you will probably let go. Unfortunately, neither BRP nor RQ has a rule or Combat Manouver for this.

Thing is, if you grabbed someone GOOD, he is physically unable to do the thumb maneuver.

As I noted, the effect of the rules is that anyone with a high Grapple uses it against any human opponent all the time, because its so hard to resist in the first place.

That's pretty much the idea of grappling. I took down and chocked the kyokushin karate representative for my country in about 30 seconds... He does not know how to grapple, he didn't KO me before i closed distance, game over. Mind you, he was 120-130 kg and i was 73 kg.

Keep in mind that all this is WHITHOUT weapons. My former girl (that does kyokushin too) "stabbed me to death" with a rolled newspaper 8 times out of 10, i got a clean ippon seioi once, and probably died with tai otoshi (but managed to actually perform the throw and got a side control).

As for someone saying BJJ doesn't work in the streets, thats actually untrue. First, you must be fighting 2 on 1; that doesnt actually work that well with any combat style in real life.

Second, a seasoned BJJ practitioner can end a fight with someone that doesnt grapple in seconds. What you see in UFC is two very advanced (or even master) practicioners, with superb conditioning; also the street is HARD and the takedown alone (any judo throw, for example) usually ends the fight.

Thinking that a BJJ guy on the streets takes as much time as in UFC is akin to thinking ali could takes up to 12 rounds to knock jhon doe out in the streets. Ali would just 1 or 2 punch someone to KO.

A friend of mine ended in jail after a streetfight: some retard backed his suv and hit his bike, and THEN tried to hit him, my friend grounded and mounted the guy, then stood up cause he didnt want to hurt him (less than 5 secs). Then the guy got up and tried to continue fighting, he did a morote gari (double leg takedown) and broke the guy's orbital bone; instant ko + 3 days in hospital. Total fight time? about 3 seconds.

[Nightshade]

That's pretty much the idea of grappling. I took down and chocked the kyokushin karate representative for my country in about 30 seconds... He does not know how to grapple, he didn't KO me before i closed distance, game over. Mind you, he was 120-130 kg and i was 73 kg.

Keep in mind that all this is WHITHOUT weapons. My former girl (that does kyokushin too) "stabbed me to death" with a rolled newspaper 8 times out of 10, i got a clean ippon seioi once, and probably died with tai otoshi (but managed to actually perform the throw and got a side control).

But that's the point; currently it doesn't make a lick of difference if the opponent has weapons or not, or pretty much anything else other than having a high defense. There's no discouragement against this succeeding no matter whether the target has a bared blade, is trained in unarmed techniques (and having had some martial experience, its not like the judoka were automatically p0wning the karateka every time in that, either) or much of anything else; once they could land a hit, the target was done, and there was no more risk in doing so than any other kind of attack.

[Nightshade]

[Deleted because I didn't realize how old Dragonewt's post was, as I hadn't realized only Icebrand had necro'd here.]

Edited July 4, 2011 by Nightshade

[icebrand]

[Deleted because I didn't realize how old Dragonewt's post was, as I hadn't realized only Icebrand had necro'd here.]

I replied cause soltakks told me to on the christians thread!!!

PS: At last those years of roleplaying games paid off, im a NECROMANCER!!! Mwhaaahahahahaha