COMBAT: Crit and Success

[Beowulf]

This question (pendragon 5.2) came up recently and I want to verify my response as a GM.  

Knight A = Sword skill=33

Knight B= Sword skill=17

A rolls a 2! (+13) =15 but is a critical success. (Critical 8-20)

B rolls a 16= success, but higher than A.

If I understand the rules correctly, this cancels out the critical, to a partial success which allows for shield protection for A. B rolls damage.

That is how I played it, but there were grumbles among the knights at the table.  They insisted that a critical "always hits".  i have reviewed the rules and feel like this is the correct call.  So, the question is...was it the right call?

Any response welcome. thanks...

[Morien]

No, 2 is not a critical success, since the roll is smaller than 7 (20-(33-20) = 20-13 = 7).

A better way to calculate is if roll+excess >= 20. In this case 2+13 = 15, which is smaller than 20, so not a critical. 

This takes care of you problem of 2+13 beating 16 (it doesn't).

Also a regular success doesn't lower the critical to a normal success, either. Critical counts as a 20 regardless of the actual calculation, so since 20 is crater than any normal success, the normal success becomes a partial success and critical does double damage. 

Two critical cause a tie, since both are counted as 20. (people have house rules about that though.) 

 

Edited December 1, 2022 by Morien

[Morien]

19 hours ago, Beowulf said:

That is how I played it, but there were grumbles among the knights at the table.  They insisted that a critical "always hits".  i have reviewed the rules and feel like this is the correct call.  So, the question is...was it the right call?

So to clarify:

1.) 2+13 = 15 was not a critical but a mere success. 

2.) Since 16 < 17, it is a success, too. 

3.) Since 16 > 15, B hits A, but A gets the shield armor bonus due to a partial success. 

So your final ruling was correct, but A's roll was not a critical to start with. 

[piersb]

My players are still trying to get their heads round criticals and skills > 20.

From what I've read of it KAP6 seems to make it more obvious by splitting off the extra - so a skill of 33 is now written as 20 (+13). Because the skill is 20, that's what you need to crit (and it replaces the fumble that ordinarily lives at 20).

You can also now see at a glance what you need to add to the roll - but it can't take the number above 20 (because that's the maximum skill you can have). And any modified roll of 20 for a Knight with a skill of 20 is a crit.

Knight A: A roll of 2 + 13 = 15. Under the skill of 20, not equal or above it. A normal success.

Knight B: A roll of 16 (+0). It's under their skill of 17, so a normal success.

16 > 15 so Knight B hits and Knight A gets to use his shield to defend.

Edited December 1, 2022 by piersb

[Beowulf]

I understand but...this is from the KAP 5.2 pg. 115,  

Example of Values Greater than 20:

Sir Yvane fights from horseback against a foot soldier. Yvane’s Sword Skill is normally 19, but the combat modifier for attacking unmounted foes gives him an increase of +5, so Yvane’s Sword Skill value is temporarily increased to 24. In effect, then, his Skill value is set at 20, and he receives a +4 bonus on his Sword rolls.
If Yvane a  the foot soldier both rolled 13 on their dice, Yvane would win because his increased roll equals 17 (+4) . Further, if Yvane rolls anything from 16 to 20, he gets a critical success (and not a fumble).

Right...so our friendly Knight from above...Knight A: 2 (+13) 15.  Doesn't the 7-20, he gets a Critical success? given in the example above or does this only apply to modifiers and not to the plus granted from greater than 20.  I am not trying to beat a dead horse here but trying to make sure that when I come to the table, I explain this correctly to my crit happy or unhappy knights., depends which side of the blade you're on. 

No matter what I will put before my group and discuss, and we will come to an agreement hopefully that everyone can enjoy!  Thanks again for responses, wasn't sure anyone cared about these kinds of questions.

 

[Brown]

19 hours ago, Beowulf said:

Further, if Yvane rolls anything from 16 to 20, he gets a critical success (and not a fumble).

Yeah so this is written confusingly in the book. "Further" here doesn't mean "also, [separate clause]" - its a continuation of the previous sentence. Instead of "Further," it should say "So," or something:

"... Yvane would win because his increased roll equals 17. [So], if Yvane rolls anything from 16 to 20, he gets a critical success (and not a fumble)." 

The 16-20 is a crit because the +4 modifier to roll brings it up to 20 which is a crit for skill values 20+.

[piersb]

Ah! I was wondering how the reading of 7-20 as a critical success happened.

@Brown's correct - it would be much clearer if it was written as a So rather than an Also. 🙂

Or if it instead was written "If Yvane's modified roll is 20 or above."

[Mugen]

On 12/2/2022 at 12:44 AM, Beowulf said:

If Yvane a  the foot soldier both rolled 13 on their dice, Yvane would win because his increased roll equals 17 (+4) . Further, if Yvane rolls anything from 16 to 20, he gets a critical success (and not a fumble).

The first sentence actually make a reference to the unmodified die roll (13), then to the increased roll (17).

The second sentence here only refers to the unmodified die roll.

The rule is simple : a critical occurs if your modified die equals your skill value, or if that modified roll is superior or equal to 20.

Another important rule : if both protagonists roll a crit, then it's a tie, even if one had a modified roll of 26 and the other rolled 14 (with a skill of 14).

If anything in an example make you think crits work differently, it means the example was not clear.

Edited December 3, 2022 by Mugen

[Morien]

1 hour ago, Mugen said:

The rule is simple : a critical occurs if your modified die equals your skill value, or if that modified roll is superior or equal to 20.

Change the 'modified' from the first to 'unmodified'.

"The rule is simple : a critical occurs if your unmodified roll equals your skill value (i.e. for skills 20 and less), or if the modified roll (for skills 21 and above) is superior or equal to 20."

Edited December 3, 2022 by Morien

[Mugen]

7 minutes ago, Morien said:

Change the 'modified' from the first to 'unmodified'.

"The rule is simple : a critical occurs if your unmodified roll equals your skill value (i.e. for skills 20 and less), or if the modified roll (for skills 21 and above) is superior or equal to 20."

You're right. I put "modified" because I thought some events could change your die even if it was under 20, but I can't find any...

[Morien]

2 hours ago, Mugen said:

You're right. I put "modified" because I thought some events could change your die even if it was under 20, but I can't find any...

There were some funny rules like that in 1e, but I think any modifiers in 3e+ are just for the value itself, not on the roll, save when the modified value becomes 21 or more.

[Beowulf]

Thanks to all for the responses, really helped clear things up.