Aircraft?

Atgxtg · June 12, 2023

I was working on statting up aircraft for BRP and was wonder if anyone else would be interested, and if they though that these stats looked good or not. Stats given are mostly the same as in the BRP rules with the addition of EngSTR. EngSTR is a rating of how powerful the aircraft's engines are on the STR table, and are there for future design purposes and for siutations like one vehicle towing another, tugboats, superheroes holding back jets and so forth. EngSTR for propellor aircraft is a bit suspect, and all values could shift by a point or so as I fine tune this.

Anyway, here's the sample, does this look like I'm on the right path?

*Type*	*Skill*	*Rated Speed*	*Handling*	*ACC*	*MOV*	*Armor*	*SIZ*	HP	*EngSTR*
F-16C Block 50	Pilot	43	10%	±12	2432		71	71	73
F-15C	Pilot	47	10%	±13	2965		77	77	79
AV-8B Harrier II Plus	Pilot	32	5%	±9	1209		69	69	68
A4D-5 / A-4E Skyhawk)	Pilot	32	5%	±5	1209		65	65	57
B-52H	Pilot	31	-5%	±3	1173		97	97	83
B-17G	Pilot	22	0%	±1	516		79	79	83
Boeing 707-120	Pilot	30	0%	±4	1117		88	88	78
SR-71A	Pilot	53	0%	±4	3953		91	91	81
LZ-129 Hindenburg	Pilot	13	-5%	±1	151		105	105	83
└-cruise speed		12			134
F-86F-40-NA Sabre	Pilot	32	5%	±4	1235		64	64	53
F-86 Sabre Mk.6	Pilot	32	5%	±5	1253		64	64	56
MiG-15bis	Pilot	32	5%	±5	1236		70	70	62
SAAB J29F Tunnan	Pilot	31	5%	±6	1184		60	60	53
SAAB J35F Draken	Pilot	45	5%	±7	2736		70	70	65
SAAB JA37 Viggen	Pilot	43	5%	±8	2491		74	74	71
SAAB JAS 39C/D Gripen	Pilot	42	10%	±10	2345		67	67	66
Supermarine Walrus I	Pilot	16	0%	±1	242		56	56	60
Sopwith F.1 Camel	Pilot	14	0%	±1	203		37	37	41
Fokker Dr. I	Pilot	14	0%	±1	201		36	36	39
PBY-5A Catalina	Pilot	18	0%	±1	352		74	74	74
Boeing 314A Clipper	Pilot	19	0%	±1	380		84	84	86
Bell 47G-3B	Pilot	14	0%	±1	117		45	45	49
C-130H Hercules	Pilot	24	-5%	±1	659		91	91	98
C-5M Galaxy	Pilot	28	-5%	±3	956		110	110	94
Airbus A380-800	Pilot	29	-5%	±2	1008		115	115	130
Wallis WA-116 Agile	Pilot	14	5%	±1	180		26	26	34
Vickers Wave	Pilot	16	0%	±1	246		40	40	42
SeaRey (2006)	Pilot	15	0%	±1	217		37	37	36
Bell X-1	Pilot	46	5%	±5	2897		62	62	53
F-104G	Pilot	45	5%	±8	2746		68	68	64

Edited June 12, 2023 by Atgxtg
Corrected Bell 47G

g33k · June 12, 2023

Likely you want a "Ceiling" rating, too; that can be important.

Also "climb rate" (but be careful not to take "world record" numbers, here, as those are generally set by specially-prepped planes, stripped of all possible excess weight (extra fuel, any weapons/ammo, etc)).

What's the relationship between "MOV" and "Rated Speed" ?
My intuitive sense is that they'd just be two different numeric scales for the same factor, but that clearly isn't the case.

g33k · June 12, 2023

<duplicate, deleted>

Edited June 12, 2023 by g33k
dup

Atgxtg · June 12, 2023

1 hour ago, g33k said:

Likely you want a "Ceiling" rating, too; that can be important.

Possibly, not so sure in a RPG context how often that would come up, except with missiles. But it would be easy to add and something based on the Flight Levels used in real aviation, where 1 level = 100 ft might work out well with Rated Speed and Acceleration.

Range would be another one I could add.

1 hour ago, g33k said:

Also "climb rate" (but be careful not to take "world record" numbers, here, as those are generally set by specially-prepped planes, stripped of all possible excess weight (extra fuel, any weapons/ammo, etc)).

Again, possibly. I think for most purposes ACC would be close enough, since I used the thrust to weight ratio for ACC. Maybe pilots could trade off some ACC for Altitude Levels (or vice versa, come to think of it).

1 hour ago, g33k said:

What's the relationship between "MOV" and "Rated Speed" ?

Good question. I don't think there is any official correlation listed, so I used regression and curve fitting and would up with:

Rated Speed = 1.39*(MOV^0.44).

or approximately:

MOV	Rated Speed
0	0
1	1
2	2
4	3
9	4
15	5
23	6
34	7
47	8
62	9
80	10
100	11
123	12
148	13
176	14
207	15
241	16
278	17
318	18
361	19
407	20
455	21
508	22
563	23
621	24
683	25
748	26
816	27
888	28
964	29
1045	30
1131	31
1222	32
1318	33
1419	34
1527	35
1640	36
1760	37
1887	38
2021	39
2162	41
2311	42
2469	43
2635	44
2811	46
2996	47
3191	48
3397	50
3615	51
3844	52
4086	54
4341	55
4610	57
4893	58
5193	60

It doesn't match up exactly with all vehicles, but it does give a rated speed that is within a point of the official values, which is the closest I've been able to get so far. I'll probably need a more complex equation to get a better fit. But we might not need a better fit if its only off by a point. So my Hindenburg is slightly faster than BRP's but then mine has a top speed of 135 KPH as apposed to the cruising speed of 123 KPH. Does it matter all that much in a chase? Probably not as anything moving at a speed where is matters will be rated on the same scale, and anything close in speed will still be close in speed.

BTW, based on the travel speeds listed for vehicles it appears that MOV=KPH*67/60

1 hour ago, g33k said:

My intuitive sense is that they'd just be two different numeric scales for the same factor, but that clearly isn't the case.

It's definitely some sort of increasing scale to keep the values low and thus playable. It makes sense too, since in a chase it's more about the relative speed between the vehicles than the absolute. That is a 10 KPH difference in speed matters a lot in a foot chase where the average person runs at 25 KPH than it does in a with supersonic jets with an average speed is 2500 KPH.

Edited June 12, 2023 by Atgxtg

g33k · June 12, 2023

4 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

Possibly, not so sure in a RPG context how often that would come up, except with missiles ...

If they are flying with military gear, they may be facing similarly-equipped opposition.

Flying above the enemy's flight-ceiling has been one of the ways some missions have achieved success.

I expect players interested & playing in such games will likely be interested in exploring such tactics...

Atgxtg · June 12, 2023

1 minute ago, g33k said:

If they are flying with military gear, they may be facing similarly-equipped opposition.

Flying above the enemy's flight-ceiling has been one of the ways some missions have achieved success.

I expect players interested & playing in such games will likely be interested in exploring such tactics...

Good points. Plus it would make sense for those flying CAP to be higher up. That would mean that someone in a dive could get up to 10 points of ACC from gravity (1G=10ACC) to bounce someone below. Hmm, they would also be able to exceed Rated Speed a little when diving.

g33k · June 12, 2023

3 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

Good points. Plus it would make sense for those flying CAP to be higher up. That would mean that someone in a dive could get up to 10 points of ACC from gravity (1G=10ACC) to bounce someone below. Hmm, they would also be able to exceed Rated Speed a little when diving.

Diving to gain speed has been a combat-tactic for millions of years!
😁

But the SR-71 was such a hard target in part because of its altitude... almost nothing could reach it.
What *could* get up there was flying in clear sky, so it couldn't hide from radar.
The Blackbird's defensive protocols were typically just to bump their speed, and out-ran it; or alter course a bit, and cruise past with 50 miles of clearance; or similar tactics.

If they'd been flying down at 15000 feet or somesuch, they'd have potentially been facing hundreds of planes, and thousands of missiles... and likely gotten hit.

Atgxtg · June 12, 2023

1 hour ago, g33k said:

Diving to gain speed has been a combat-tactic for millions of years!
😁

Yup. Oh, that also means that someone could trade off speed for altitude. Basically by taking negative ACC

For instance, lets say you are flying around at 5000 feet in your Sopwith Camel at 180 kph/MOV21, Rated Speed 14 when your engine conks out. You could pull up on the stick and turn some of that speed into altitude but since the engine isn't working you'd wouldn't get the speed back until you started to dive.

1 hour ago, g33k said:

But the SR-71 was such a hard target in part because of its altitude... almost nothing could reach it.
What *could* get up there was flying in clear sky, so it couldn't hide from radar.
The Blackbird's defensive protocols were typically just to bump their speed, and out-ran it; or alter course a bit, and cruise past with 50 miles of clearance; or similar tactics.

If they'd been flying down at 15000 feet or somesuch, they'd have potentially been facing hundreds of planes, and thousands of missiles... and likely gotten hit.

Yeah, you're quite right about that. Not only was the altitude a problem to get to, but by the time something actually managed to reach the 20-25km that the SR-71 was flying at, the Blackbird would have been 20-100km further along.

But, I'm trying to keep this as simple as possible and 3D combat gets complicated fast. Maybe something like Altitude Bands could work? The SR-71 could be up at Extremely High (EH) and only other aircraft/weapons rated for EH could reach it?

And then all these jet's max speeds are only obtainable at higher altitudes, the ACC only with afterburners, and so on. It's tricky to figure out just where to draw the line for game rules; what to include and what to leave out.

Edited June 12, 2023 by Atgxtg

Atgxtg · June 15, 2023

On 6/12/2023 at 4:40 PM, g33k said:

If they are flying with military gear, they may be facing similarly-equipped opposition.

Flying above the enemy's flight-ceiling has been one of the ways some missions have achieved success.

I expect players interested & playing in such games will likely be interested in exploring such tactics...

I've been given this a bit of thought, and had a few ideas.

First off, I think we need to consider how altitude and differences in altitude would likely play out in game, since this is an RPG and not a flight simulator. To that end I can think of three basic situations that would crop in in play.

The Ambush: This is where somebody is flying around when they get "bounced" by someone else. In this circumstance the initiative lies with the attacker, who mostly gets to pick when, where, from what direction, from above or below, etc as restricted by the relative capabilities of each side's aircraft, and might even be determined beforehand in a set piece encounter.The defender actions mostly consist of countering or limited the attacker's advantage by spotting the attacker visual or through devices (radar?).
The Intercept: This is a situation where someone is flying somewhere and someone else must scramble or divert aircraft to try reach them before they get to their objective or escape. In this instance altitude is more of a matter of the with the relative merits of the aircraft. as limited initial potions and speed, This would be were ceiling and time to climb would matter. It's more of a beat the clock chase with the interceptors hoping to intercept before the target reaches the finish line. THis covers most millie attacks too.
The Crash: This is where an aircraft loses power or suffers damage that causes it to fall from the sky. In such cases altitude matters mostly in terms of time- that is how long will it take for the aircraft to reach the ground, can they find a good place to put down in time and so on. Piloting skill and glide ratio would be important to land the airplane, and repair skills might help to fix an engine in some cases.
The Take Off: This is when somebody has to reach a certain altitude within a limited amount of time to avoid hitting an obstacle. Here is is all about the aircraft's ability to climb, the pilot's ability to push the aircraft (=skill), the height of the obstacle, and the time available.

I think the above, with some variations covers most of situations that would come up in a role playing game. Now let's see about addressing them while trying to keep things simple.

Option 1 - Altitude Levels: This would mean introducing Altitude Levels into the game. Each level would be a set height (say 100 ft or 500 feet, or more likely 100 o r 200 meters), although the actual values could be abstract or increasing like with relative speed, as in play it would mostly come down to relative altitude between aircraft for range purposes. For climbing we could use ACC as thrust-mass ratio and power-mass-ratio are both good indicators, perhaps modified by wing loading, and g limits (both of which I already use to determine handling, so a Climb stat could be worked out). A pilot could use ACC to change altitude instead of speed to climb, or in addition to speed when diving, basically trading off Altitude for ACC, or even Rated Speed for Altitude. Aircraft would be (mostly) limited by their ceiling.

This would mean tracking each aircraft altitude all the time, rules and limits for changing altitude, and what the effects would be on ranges in combat, what weapons could be brought to bear, and some other stuff I have't considered yet, like stall speed.

Option 2 - Simplified Altitude Bands: This would introduce altitude as altitude bands, say about 1 mile or 2000 meters high each. Basically we divide the sky into a half dozen or so bands that the aircraft fly in. Aircraft in the same band ignore height in play, and those above or below used simplified version of the climbing/diving rules from Option 1 to change altitude by about 1 band per game round. Ceiling and ACC would still matter but we wouldn't need as much bookkeeping. We's lose some of the fine tuning, but it probably wouldn't matter so much.

Option 3 - Abstract E-M Theory: Okay the idea here is to simply things down to the bare essentials. So what we would need would be to:

Note the relative positions of each aircraft and how much of an advantage that provides.
Aircraft limits in terms of ceiling and performance.

To do this lets delve into the idea of Energy Maneuver Theory where they consider altitude to be potential energy that can be traded off for performance in a dogfight. Now if we did that we could treat Altitude like a pool of Power Points/Fate Points that could only be spent to improve aircraft performance. When spent they are used up and gone (and the aircraft is on the deck).

Pilots could gain more Altitude Points, if they have time by climbing, say ACC points per minute, but their pool of points would be capped by their aircraft's ceiling stat. Likewise aircraft would have range limits in terms of Altitude Points. So they can't shoot guns at a target that's ten miles above them.

Pilots about to engage in an areal battle could get a skill roll to earn a few extra points, and dogfighting could be abstracted as opposed piloting (or even opposed rated speed for boom & zoom fights) to earn E-M points.

The abstract method seems the simplest but I don't think it looses much in terms of game play situations. Player would just get some extra points to spend that reflect altitude, without the need for 3D positioning.

What does anyone else think?

Edited June 15, 2023 by Atgxtg

Atgxtg · June 15, 2023

Another batch of aircraft stats for comparison.

F-5E Tiger II	Pilot	39	0%	±6	1944	65	65	59
F-20 Tigershark	Pilot	42	10%	±10	2372	65	65	65
Piper J-3C-65 Cub	Pilot	13	0%	±1	156	35	35	33
Bede BD-5B	Pilot	20	5%	±1	417	28	28	34
Bede BD-5J Microjet	Pilot	23	5%	±3	593	32	32	17
Beechcraft T-34A	Pilot	18	0%	±1	339	45	45	47
Beechcraft T-34C	Pilot	20	#N/A	±2	442	47	47	58
MIG-17F	Pilot	32	5%	±6	1279	61	61	55
Mirage IIIE	Pilot	44	0%	±6	2624	68	68	62
Mirage 5F	Pilot	44	0%	±5	2624	72	72	62
Mirage F1	Pilot	44	5%	±7	2611	70	70	65
Mirage 2000	Pilot	44	5%	±7	2609	72	72	67
Mirage 4000	Pilot	45	10%	±12	2730	74	74	76
IAI Kfir C7	Pilot	45	5%	±8	2725	69	69	66
MiG-21bis	Pilot	43	5%	±8	2429	67	67	63
MiG-23MLD	Pilot	46	5%	±9	2791	73	73	71
			5%
MiG-25P / MiG-25PD	Pilot	49	-5%	±6	3350	84	84	77
MiG-29	Pilot	45	10%	±11	2736	73	73	73
MIG-31	Pilot	49	0%	±9	3350	85	85	83
Harrier GR.1	Pilot	32	5%	±12	1295	66	66	68
Harrier GR.3	Pilot	33	5%	±12	1313	67	67	68
BAC Lighting F Mk.6	Pilot	44	5%	±8	2607	76	76	73
DH Vampire FB.6	Pilot	29	5%	±3	985	61	61	47
DH. 115 Vampire T. Mk. 11	Pilot	29	5%	±3	972	61	61	47
Canberra B. (I) Mk 6	Pilot	29	0%	±3	1039	77	77	63
Canberra B. (I) Mk 8	Pilot	29	0%	±3	1006	77	77	63
Harrier GR.3	Pilot	33	#DIV/0!	±13	1313	66	66	68
Sea King H.A.S. Mk I	Pilot	16	5%	±2	257	65	65	78
747-200B	Pilot	30	0%	±5	1049	102	102	93
747-8	Pilot	30	0%	±5	1042	104	104	97
C-47B-DK Skytrain	Pilot	19	0%	±1	402	73	73	45
Learjet 28	Pilot	29	0%	±4	987	64	64	53
Learjet 31	Pilot	30	0%	±5	1079	65	65	55
Learjet 55	Pilot	29	0%	±6	973	63	63	56
A-10C Thunderbolt II	Pilot	26	0%	±4	788	77	77	65
Chengdu J-20A	Pilot	45	10%	±12	2757	79	79	81
F-84 Thunderjet	Pilot	30	0%	±3	1118	67	67	53
F-100D Super Sabre	Pilot	36	0%	±6	1660	72	72	65
F-101B Voodoo	Pilot	40	0%	±7	2038	77	77	73
F-102A Delta Dagger	Pilot	34	5%	±7	1483	70	70	65
F-105D Thunderchief	Pilot	43	0%	±7	2501	74	74	70
F-106A Delta Dart	Pilot	45	5%	±7	2740	74	74	70
P-47D-40 Thunderbolt	Pilot	26	0%	±1	766	66	66	72
P-51D Mustang	Pilot	26	0%	±2	793	59	59	71
Yak-9U	Pilot	26	0%	±2	782	56	56	69
F4U-4 Corsair	Pilot	26	0%	±2	801	64	64	75
F-111F Aardvark	Pilot	47	5%	±6	2966	84	84	78
F-117A Nighthawk	Pilot	32	5%	±4	1228	79	79	68
F6F-5 Hellcat	Pilot	25	0%	±2	702	62	62	72
Spitfire Mk Vb	Pilot	24	5%	±2	670	55	55	69
Bf 109G-6	Pilot	25	0%	±2	717	55	55	68
X-62 Vista	Pilot	43	10%	±11	2423	71	71	72
Cessna Citation CJ2+	Pilot	27	5%	±6	864	57	57	51
Cirrus Vision V50 G2	Pilot	24	5%	±3	643	54	54	40
Phenom 100EV	Pilot	28	0%	±3	958	56	56	43
Diamond D-JET	Pilot	24	5%	±4	651	52	52	40
Antonov An-225 Mriya	Pilot	28	-5%	±2	949	116	116	99
SPAD XIII	Pilot	15	0%	±1	214	39	39	43
SPAD S. XIII	Pilot	15	0%	±1	236	40	40	46

Atgxtg · June 16, 2023

Yet Another batch of stats for comparison. Hope these seem about right.

Ju-87-B-1	Pilot	20	5%	±2	428	54	54	67
Ju 87D-1	Pilot	21	0%	±1	458	64	64	68
F-80C Shooting Star	Pilot	30	5%	±3	1068	66	66	52
P-80C/F-80C	Pilot	30	5%	±4	1068	62	62	50
Avro Vulcan B.1	Pilot	31	5%	±3	1160	90	90	76
F-4E Phantom II	Pilot	44	5%	±9	2647	76	76	74
Tupolev Tu-22M	Pilot	41	0%	±5	2230	97	97	87
F-14D Tomcat	Pilot	45	5%	±10	2775	80	80	80
F-14D Tomcat	Pilot	45	10%	±10	2775	80	80	80
Panavia Tornado GR.4	Pilot	45	0%	±8	2680	77	77	73
Su-27SK Flanker	Pilot	46	10%	±11	2792	78	78	78
Su-27 Flanker B approx	Pilot	44	10%	±10	2546	79	79	78
C919	Pilot	28	0%	±3	936	86	86	72
Cessna T-182 Q II Turbo Skylane	Pilot	14	0%	±1	204	46	46	48
Douglas AD-6/A1-H Skyraider	Pilot	23	0%	±1	578	66	66	76
Aichi B7A2	Pilot	24	0%	±2	633	62	62	77
Fairey Swordfish I	Pilot	16	0%	±1	257	56	56	60
A-7E Corsair II	Pilot	32	0%	±5	1231	72	72	64
F-8E Crusader	Pilot	41	0%	±6	2204	72	72	66
F-11F-1/F-11A Tiger	Pilot	33	0%	±5	1352	68	68	60
Icon A5	Pilot	14	0%	±1	197	38	38	38
F-15EX Eagle II	Pilot	47	10%	±9	2966	79	79	78
Seamax M-22	Pilot	15	0%	±1	235	35	35	35
DH 110 Sea Vixen FAW. 2	Pilot	32	5%	±5	1240	76	76	68
Buccaneer S.2	Pilot	31	0%	±4	1195	81	81	69
Jet Provost T.5	Pilot	26	5%	±4	789	55	55	43
Dassault MD.452 Mystère IIC	Pilot	31	5%	±5	1184	63	63	54
Hawker Hunter F.6	Pilot	32	5%	±6	1285	66	66	59
Short Sunderland III	Pilot	19	0%	±1	380	80	80	81
Saro A33	Pilot	18	0%	±1	357	76	76	78
Saunders-Roe SR.A/1	Pilot	28	5%	±5	920	65	65	56
Convair F2Y Sea Dart	Pilot	34	10%	±10	1483	70	70	69
Convair YB-60	Pilot	28	0%	±2	913	99	99	82
Ytu-95MS	Pilot	29	-5%	±1	1033	101	101	110
Lockheed L-1049C Super Constellation	Pilot	23	0%	±1	592	85	85	94
Douglas DC-3A-S1C3G	Pilot	20	0%	±1	413	70	70	74
Saab 90 Scandia	Pilot	21	0%	±1	503	72	72	77
Vikers VC1 Viking 1B	Pilot	21	0%	±3	472	72	72	88
Bell 206B-L4 Long Ranger	Pilot	16	5%	±1	246	45	45	49
Grumman G-21/JRF-5 Goose	Pilot	19	0%	±1	361	57	57	63
Super Petrel LS	Pilot	15	0%	±1	212	36	36	38
Pipistrel Panthera	Pilot	19	0%	±1	401	45	45	49

Atgxtg · June 20, 2023

Some more in case anyone is interested.

Cessna 152	Pilot	15	0%	±1	227	39	39	39
Diamond DA-20-C1 Eclipse	Pilot	17	0%	±1	286	40	40	41
AEROSPATIALE TB-30 Epsilon	Pilot	20	0%	±1	422	45	45	51
ENAER T-35 Pillán	Pilot	18	0%	±1	347	45	45	50
Saunders-Roe SR.45 Princess	Pilot	24	0%	±2	681	100	100	110
Regent Seaglider Viceroy	Pilot	18	-5%	±1	324	65	65	53
DG Flugzeugbau DG-800C (18m span)	Pilot	17	0%	±1	302	36	36	30
Aeronca C-2	Pilot	12	0%	±1	143	29	29	24
Curtiss-Robertson CR-1 Skeeter	Pilot	12	0%	±1	145	33	33	29
Goupy Hydroaeroplane	Pilot	12	0%	±1	134	39	39	36
Stipa-Caproni	Pilot	13	0%	±1	149	40	40	40
F-16 XL No. 2	Pilot	43	5%	±6	2423	78	78	72
FS-1 Flying Sub	Pilot	45	10%	±15	2663	98	98	102
└-submerged	Pilot	12	#N/A	±10	124	102	102	102

Atgxtg · June 20, 2023

Radar

Here is a start on radar, to get a read on if people think this is a good direction.

Radar is given a range stat which works the same way range does with firearms, only with a Radar Operation skill.
Each aircraft has a Signature Rating, which is is how easy is is to be detected and tracked by radar. Multiple the radar's base range by the aircraft's signature to see at what the base range is to detect that aircraft.
Note that these values are educated guesses, both due to the difficulty in getting reliable info on top secret equipment, as well as trade offs made to simply the data for RPG use. For instance, a C-130 has smaller radar cross section than a B-52 and would only be detectable at about 95% of the distance that the B-52 would, but I doubt anyone wants a multiplier of 2.84. I might be able to work it out with the resistance table, but I'm not sure if people still like to use that.

The following range table gives base ranges for some common radar along with detect ranges for typical fighter and bomber aircraft. For example the Sea Vixen radar aboard a Sea Harrier can detect a typical fight at a base range of 110 kilometers . Note that some radars have multiple values sometimes denoting upgrades, but mostly due to conflicting or imprecise data. I'll narrow this down in future (probably by taking the middle value).