DrGoth Posted July 8, 2023 Share Posted July 8, 2023 Continuing my investigation of the Far Place... I'm trying to match https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=10158991363789017&set=gm.2079906742185314 and its extract https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/the-far-place/ with https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/the-tribes-of-sartar-1625-1626/ Versus the information in Wyrms Footnotes 15 (yes, I know its canonicity is questionable) Specifically, I'm looking at matching the clans on the clan maps to the tribes. The tribe boundaries on the two maps are similar but don't quite match. I'm assuming the well of daliath tribal map is more accurate than the WF15 one (p.31), especially as it matches more closely with the clan maps. For example, the elbow angle of the border of the Tanzarsk (sp?), the point of which lies on Jerra Hil. That matches with the Daliath tribal map and puts that clan firmly in the Vantaros. The Engol would also be in Tantaros, as would the Barley's Valley clan, as Alda-chur lies in their lands. However, there is no line on the clan map that matches neatly with the Vantaros-Princeros border on the Daliath tribal map. Also, at best, I can find five clans that lie in the Princeros lands (Sharl, Wild Bull, Mule Deer, Lanceros and Sidask (sp?)). And the Sidask lands seem to run right up to Alda-chur, which might mean they are Vantaros, not Princeros. But according to WF15 the Princeros have 8 clans, not 4-5. And are 10,000 strong. which means if they do have 4-5 clans, they are very big clans. More generally, from the sketch map, I'm only seeing 16 clans for the Princeros Vantaros and Tovtaros. Here's my guesses, based on the Daliath tribal map of which tribe for them Princeros Sharl Wild Bull Lanceros Sidask (sp) (and maybe they are Vantaros) Mule deer Vantaros Barley's Valley Bright Spear Gold Helm Engol Tanzarsk (sp) Dwarf Friend Tovtaros Brown Bear Haladon Orlinim Ulandring Blue Fort That gives them five (Tovtaros), six (Vantaros), five (Princeros), where WF 15 has Tovtaros 3, Vantaros 8 and Princeros 8 (19 clans). There could be one unnamed clan south of the Barley's Valley clan. The Daliath tribal map puts that area in the Vantaros and there is a small circle for a settlement, but there's no clan name. That would give the Vantaros 7 clans, very close to the WF15 number. Eight, if the Sidask are actually Vantaros. That the Tovtaors have 5 clans were WF15 said three is neither here nor there - 800 people per clan seems better for them anyway. But that would all leave the Princeros at 10,000 people and four clans. Which seems odd. The tribe sizes from WF15 are Tovtaros 4,000 , Vantaros 9.500 and Princeros 10,000, which match with the population for the Far Place from, eg, the guide and https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/the-far-place/, which gives the population around Alda-Chur as 31000 (which includes the Dinacoli and Alda-chur itself). The Amad, Bachad and Tres match up better between the various sources, but not perfectly Amad Wahote Pathrand (sp?) Sarnak Tres Kalintor Skase Agwari Bachad Flint Golden Poppy Turtle That's nine clans, which is what WF15 gives them, but WF15 has the Amad at two clans and the Bachad at 4 clans. the difference there would seem to be the Sarnak, which the Daliath tribal map puts firmly in Amad lands when compared to the map from facebook. But my real question is around the current canon numbers for tribal populations and clan numbers for the Princeros, Vantaros and Tovtaros. Do we know how they stack up? The biggest issue seems to be the Princeros, whose possibly 4 clans and 10,000 people seems a mismatch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joerg Posted July 8, 2023 Share Posted July 8, 2023 WF15 was written without access to Greg Stafford's more detailed Sartar notes, which have since been returned to the Chaosium archives, and are treated preferentially. This has turned quite a bit of earlier output by e.g. Jeff into the same canonicity as fan-produced material on the Jonstown Compendium. Personally, I have always seen this data as guidelines. While it is pretty hard to justify the existence of another wealthy clan in an already cramped area, inserting another marginal clan in less-than-optimal conditions should always be possible, even in official material, although the usual way is to identify one of the existing names with an alternative name you have been using in your writing. One and the same clan may go down in the histories under four or five different names. Starfires, Woodpeckers, Orlmarth - all the same clan (except when possibly a Lismelder clan might be known as Starfires, too). 2 Quote Telling how it is excessive verbis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrGoth Posted July 8, 2023 Author Share Posted July 8, 2023 2 hours ago, Joerg said: WF15 was written without access to Greg Stafford's more detailed Sartar notes, which have since been returned to the Chaosium archives, and are treated preferentially. This has turned quite a bit of earlier output by e.g. Jeff into the same canonicity as fan-produced material on the Jonstown Compendium. Personally, I have always seen this data as guidelines. While it is pretty hard to justify the existence of another wealthy clan in an already cramped area, inserting another marginal clan in less-than-optimal conditions should always be possible, even in official material, although the usual way is to identify one of the existing names with an alternative name you have been using in your writing. One and the same clan may go down in the histories under four or five different names. Starfires, Woodpeckers, Orlmarth - all the same clan (except when possibly a Lismelder clan might be known as Starfires, too). Fair enough, but that still leaves me asking how the 30k+ people (which I think is still the canon figure) are split between the Alda-churi tribes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joerg Posted July 8, 2023 Share Posted July 8, 2023 1 hour ago, DrGoth said: Fair enough, but that still leaves me asking how the 30k+ people (which I think is still the canon figure) are split between the Alda-churi tribes. The original population numbers for Sartar were calculated by assigning 500 people to an arable wargame hex, and calling that number a clan. Subsequent refinement has led to a smaller number of clans with more members each, but the exact distribution remains unclear. There is a sketch map of all clans in Sartar, the Far Place and Hendrikiland on the Well of Daliath which could be matched to the hex grid to arrive at rough initial numbers which then could be tuned down for heavily forested or very rough terrain. Or you could wait for RQG editing, art commission and layout resources able to take on Jeff's Sartar Campaign (and gazetteer) WIP for which the writing has been done for quite a while now. Population numbers leave space for interpretation, e.g. whether they show the total population, the population above 5 years old (which is supposed to have a better than 50% chance at survival barring cataclysmic troubles), or just the productive adult population at home (not counting clan members away in military service or other long-time employment who might return at the drop of a coin, or led away as captives waiting to be ransomed or bought back or otherwise freed). Whatever your story arc needs. Back in the early 2000s, I was part of two groups of GMs exchanging campaign logs and background for the region they gamed (or wrote) in, the Whitewall Wiki and Yahoogroup and a less prominent Wilmskirk Yahoogroup. I know there are several people GMing and writing in/for the Far Place who might be up for such a form of collaboration and cross-pollination. Quote Telling how it is excessive verbis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrGoth Posted July 9, 2023 Author Share Posted July 9, 2023 On 7/8/2023 at 5:19 PM, Joerg said: WF15 was written without access to Greg Stafford's more detailed Sartar notes, which have since been returned to the Chaosium archives, and are treated preferentially. This has turned quite a bit of earlier output by e.g. Jeff into the same canonicity as fan-produced material on the Jonstown Compendium. Ah, I didn't know that about WF15. So I need to start again. 23 hours ago, Joerg said: There is a sketch map of all clans in Sartar, the Far Place and Hendrikiland on the Well of Daliath which could be matched to the hex grid to arrive at rough initial numbers which then could be tuned down for heavily forested or very rough terrain. Yep, that's the same one I was referencing through facebook. So, like I said, to start again, taking that map as authoritative, but also assuming https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/the-tribes-of-sartar-1625-1626/ is also authoritative. Now, they don't quite match. For example, the tribes map has the Sharl river as the border between the Princeros and Vantaros and the clan map has the Sharl running through the middle of the Lanceros lands. But clan boundaries are not like RW national borders, being more fluid and overlapping, so I don't think that's a big deal. We do have the following: GTG p.173 Alda-Chur city 4k, rural area 31k. That matches (understandably) with everything said since, eg in the Well of Daliath. Comparing that map in the guide to the tribe map on the well, it's clear that rural population is for the four Alda-churi tribes - Princeros, Vantaros, Tovtaros, Dinacoli. My best guess at clan to tribe mapping is Princeros Sharl Wild Bull Lanceros Mule deer Vantaros Barley's Valley Bright Spear Gold Helm Engol Tanzarsk (sp) Dwarf Friend (is this actually a clan) Sidask (sp) (maybe Princeros? But I really don;t think so) Tovtaros Brown Bear Haladon Orlinim Ulandring Blue Fort Dinacoli Penrose Redhands Snake Feathered Snake Rain Blossom Black Bear Red Deer Bull Frog Stag Vastach Emerald Sword Krikas Running Bird Bahend Wow - the Dinacoli have a lot of clans. Now, I'm going to make an assumption and that the WF population figure for the Dinacoli is correct - 9k. I could be wrong there, but I'm trying to work out the clan sizes for the original far Place and the Dinacoli will screw up my admittedly very back of the envelope calculations. I'm going to make another assumption - that a line in WF15 is still valid. p47 "Sharl Plains: The Barley Woman Sharla is an aspect of Ernalda in her role as land goddess of the Aldachuri. Her plains are densely populated." The Sharl plains are split between the Princeros and Vantaros. Not counting the Dinacoli we have 16 clans amongst the other three tribes. Maybe 17 if the area south of the Barley's Valley clan and west of the Gold Helm clan is actually a clan, just not named. Taking the 31k rural population and subtracting the Dionacoli 9k, we have 22k left for those 16 clans. That's an average clan size of 1375 people. Now, not all those clans are on the Sharl plains (see WF quote above). The Tovtaros are not in the Sharl plains at all and even some of the Vantaros lands are not there. So those clans could be postulated under that average number while the Sharl plain clans are higher - even up to 1600-1800. To test that a little further I looked at population density for the Lanceros clan - through which the Sharl river runs, according to the clan map. If I have my overlay from the tribal map correct, the Lanceros lands are approximately 12km long by 5km wide - or 60km square. Which, up that upper end (1800) would give a density of 30 people per square kilometre. That's high. But not unbelievably high, given the WF quote and https://www.medievalchronicles.com/medieval-life/medieval-village/, which gives an average figure for medieval Germany of slightly more than that. Ok, medieval Germany is not Glorantha. But if I wave my hands, point at the quote and say 'magic of Ernalda and Barntar' it would work. You might have the four clans of the Princeros amounting to 7k or a little higher. Which works for me. If we think a little more about a Lanceros of 1800 people. Half of them live in villages (900 people). I could see, say, 7 of them along the river, at about 2 km intervals in that 12k stretch. One, the central village of the clan would be larger (say 150) the others average around one hundred. You can even see that main village on the clan map, under the 'A' of Lanceros, but it isn't given a name. The remaining 900 members of the clan live in farmsteads, set back from the river (as that 2km separation gives each village one kilometer to work on either side, which as I understand is about right). So let's just dive in and say 1800 for each of the Princeros and give the tribe 7.2k If I assume the 1375 average figure works for the Vantaros (some larger, those in the Sharl plains, some not, those outside it), the tribe works out at about 9.6k (coincidentally, very close to the WF number). Out of the 22k we have to work with, that leaves 5200 for the Tovtaros or an average of a little over 1000 for each of their clans. Given they are not in the high-density area, that sounds right, or at least workable. I've probably waved bye-bye to canon a long time ago here, but those numbers work for me On 7/8/2023 at 9:32 PM, Joerg said: I know there are several people GMing and writing in/for the Far Place who might be up for such a form of collaboration and cross-pollination. That'd be great! I'd be happy to get their contacts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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