Caves of Steel Doctor Dread's HQ map

[dvdmacateer]

Is there a key for the map of Dr Dread's HQ on page 25 of the Gamemasters Book anywhere. The only note on the map is point 10 which seems to be wrong based on the text because  that seems to indicate the the base is in Battery Spencer which is  seems to be 13 on the map.

 

[Atgxtg]

I didn't find a key, and I checked the errata and companion, but.

• The map is of San Francisco Bay
• The various dark blocks ▄ appear to be various gun batteries that were installed in the 1890s through the 1950s. The bay had several forts with gun batteries to defend it. THe guns were removed over the years and some missile tests were conducted at some of them. I think they are all abandoned now.

My best guest for they key is that of the batteries that comprised Fort Baker.

10: Battery Wagner (2x5" guns)

11. Battery Kirby (2x12" guns)

12. Battery Gravelly (4x90mm)

13. Battery Spencer  (2x12" guns)

14. Battery Calvallo (1x40mm)

15.  Not shown but probably Battery Yates (6x3" guns) with would be on the right edge just North  of 14

16. Battery Duncan (2x8" guns)

 

The problem with this interpretation is that the scenario specifically states that states that the gun battery used by Doctor Dread used to house two 16 inch guns but that doesn't appear to be the case with any of the batteries at Fort Baker. But the guns aren't in the scenario so it's not a big deal.

Battery Townsley at Fort Crnockite, to  the right of the map,and Battery Davis at Fort Funston to the South of the map  did have 16 inch guns. 

 

You can check some maps of the area at https://www.militarymuseum.org/FtBaker.html to see if you can find a better fit.

 

Now I suspect that Steve had originally written this with the idea that the heroes would have to check out the various emplacements to find Doctor Dread's lair. Maybe he originally planned to use Battery Townsley as the HQ and placed obstacles and encounters at the other locations for the heroes to run into, but they got cut out of the final print due to space considerations? Or maybe he used a soruce that said Wanger had 16" guns? Or maybe I'm totally on the wrong track. 

 

Anyway I hope this helps.

 

 

 

 

[rsanford]

Wow @Atgxtg, how did yoy even figure that out? Are those batteries still designated on modern maps?

[Atgxtg]

16 minutes ago, rsanford said:

Wow @Atgxtg, how did yoy even figure that out?

Well I'd like to say I looked at the map and saw "Golden Gate" and "Fort Baker" on the map and figured out it was San Francisco Bay out, but no that would have been too easy. Instead I looked through my Superworld stuff, and Steve actually states where it is in the scenario.  So me is soo clever.😉

Then I dis a map search of the Golden Gate area looking for Kirby Cove and Horseshoe Cove and yes some of the stuff did come up on modern maps. "Battery Kirby" and Battery Spencer" flipped on a few light bulbs as did "Fort Baker". So me not quite so dumb as me look.

Then I did some searches for San Francisco Gun batteries and various bits of information popped up. Me invent fire now.

From then I just check out various websites until I hit paydirt. The site I linked to above is part of a site that covers all of the batteries in the area. BTW I got a few other maps online that I can post or put links to if needed. I feel better now. 

16 minutes ago, rsanford said:

Are those batteries still designated on modern maps?

Some. It depends on where you look. Plus a lot of tie sites still exist so you can find pictures on the embplacments, the guns, the rockets that were tested there, and  and even the  original plans. Most of the good maps are declassified stuff from the period. There was something like a half dozen forts, 25 gun and mortar batteries of various sizes and configuions over tee years,  two mine batteries, and four Anti-Aircraft Batteries (with three 3 inch guns each)., and it's all on hilly terrian and covered in reinforced concrete. I wouldn't want to try an attack the place. 

Oh, Alcatraz is just off the map, as is San Francisco. 

 

It is a really great site for an adventure, so much so that the fact that no much attention is drawn to it makes me think that iwt was something that was run for the playtesat group with more details, but stuff either got cut or didn't get written up for publication. But then it's a lot easier and faster finding this information in 2024 than in 1982. 

 

If I were to run this with the info I have now, I probably ditch the scenario maps and instead use real ones, especially the actual battery layout for the HQ. Add a few few red herrings and booby traps in the other bunkers, and maybe some kids/teenagers/beachgoers who notice something that can point the heroes to the actual HQ. Maybe put some sort of escape route for Doctor Dread (a submarine, or maybe some sort of rocket since they did test rockets at some of the batteries, or a monoorail to another battery)? I got Worlds of Wonder so I could use the warehouse as the opening act.

 

[dvdmacateer]

Thanks for the ton of hard work Atgxtg I have been disappearing down the rabbit hole as well.  The only changes I would make to your original list  is Wagner is 12 Gravelly appears to have disappeared under Kriby  

In the Endicott period, a large portion of Gravelly Beach Battery was destroyed or built over during the construction of Battery Kirby. Only a magazine Traverse of the old battery
https://web.archive.org/web/20040224225208/http://www.nps.gov/prsf/coast_defense/third_system/lime_point/gravelly.htm

10 is the most infuriating  I have found a pdfs with maps of the area but the but the resolution is pathetic.  From this map it could be an engineering building the  the square above spencer with what looks like an M.

From the 1945 map on your original link it isn't marked.  Here is what it looks like today https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@37.8303705,-122.4857114,3a,90y,91.4t/data=!3m8!1e1!3m6!1sAF1QipNqW_-QK5Xv_KkGKOXBW_kgUVacQ9GYyDaznfeP!2e10!3e11!6shttps:%2F%2Flh5.googleusercontent.com%2Fp%2FAF1QipNqW_-QK5Xv_KkGKOXBW_kgUVacQ9GYyDaznfeP%3Dw203-h100-k-no-pi-0-ya167.14566-ro-0-fo100!7i8704!8i4352?  coh=205409&entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI0MDgyOC4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D. It will probably mark it is abandoned.  

Edited September 1 by dvdmacateer

[dvdmacateer]

7 hours ago, rsanford said:

Wow @Atgxtg, how did yoy even figure that out? Are those batteries still designated on modern maps?

https://www.google.com/maps/@37.8309708,-122.485817,16z?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI0MDgyOC4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D
https://en-us.topographic-map.com/map-ndj9m/Marin-County/?center=37.82826%2C-122.48574&zoom=16&base=4

https://en-us.topographic-map.com/map-ndj9m/Marin-County/?center=37.82826%2C-122.48574&zoom=16&overlay=0

[dvdmacateer]

Here is the motherlode. National Register of Historic Places.   Pg 25 has all the batteries marked. Gravelly apparently got rebuilt in the 40's.  The  building on Slacker Hill is still AWOL but I am getting out of this rabbit hole.  Thanks again Atgxtg for the help.

https://catalog.archives.gov/id/123859676

[Atgxtg]

4 hours ago, dvdmacateer said:

Thanks for the ton of hard work Atgxtg I have been disappearing down the rabbit hole as well.

Bring a rope in case you get trapped. 

4 hours ago, dvdmacateer said:

  The only changes I would make to your original list  is Wagner is 12

Not according to Page 3 the motherlode you posted: 408. 

Battery Vagner was completed in 1904. This was a rapid fire
battery with an armament of (2) 5" guns on balanced pillar
moTints. Vagner was disarmed in 1917 and made available for
storage in 1932, but it remained vacant until the deployment
of ground to air missiles, NIKE AJAX, in the early 1950*s, at
which time Vagner was used for storage of liquid propellant for
the missiles. The object of this battery was to provide rapid
fire against objects suited to its caliber. Battery Vagner
assisted Batteries Spencer and Kirby covering the area of the
Bay entrance.

 

Oh it also says 5" on the map you posted.

 

But I have found conflicting data in different sources. It was what made finding Doctor Dread lair a pain. I figured I could just narrow things down to the batteries with 16 inch guns (per the scneario) only none of them are on the map.

I can post a image that lists all 30+ battleries thieir forts and guns. But I think it conflicts with the other data.

4 hours ago, dvdmacateer said:

Gravelly appears to have disappeared under Kriby  

Remember this was all done over a 60 year period. The same 60 year people that saw the biggest changes and most rapid development in guns, armor and targeting in the history of warships. It has the end of the ironclads, rise of the dreanaughts, Harvey steel, nickle steel, Cemeted armor, Krupp steel, etc. The US started the era with the USS MAin (BB-1) as it's best "battleship" with 2x10" guns as it's primary armament and a 12" belt of Harvey steel, and ended it with the USS Iowa (BB-61) as it best battleship with 9x16" guns as it's primary weaponry and a 12" belt of Class B armor, with the even more powerful Montana class getting canceled as being obsolete.

So the batteries keep getting made obsolete and upgraded and replaced as newer tech came along, just like the ships. 

Wagner 'disappeared" in 1917. Guns got moved around from one battery or fort to another, and by the time the scenario was written (40+ year ago!) none of these batteries were operational. Sitting on the coastline, with the salt water, with most of it over 100 years old and abadoned for at least 60 years, it's probably in worse condition than Alcatraz.   I think whatever's left is just remnants of battlements, rather unsafe,  and probably blocked off to keep people from going inside and getting hurt of killed by falling debris and stuff. There all all sorts of these sort of things left over from WWI and WWII along the US coastline and in Europe. There are some floating platforms off the British Coast from WWII (Fort Roughs) that at least some of which are still standing. One of which has declared itself to be it own sovereign nation ( Principality of Sealand). Sealand would be a great place for a villian's HQ. Especially if they could put some pressure on some countries to get recognized and maybe wrangle the villain some diplomatic immunity. Hmm, say Doctor Dread manages to install a detonator on the wreckage of the SS Richard Montgomery and threatened to press the button if the UK doesn't give into his demands? I think I just found my next Bond adventure, thanks!

 

Again, I suspect Steve had them all on the map as sites the heroes would have to check out in order to locate Doctor Dread's lair. THere are no clues in the scenario that really point to a particular place. Just notes of strange shipments in the area. And the fact that this uses the same bad guy as the adventure in Worlds of Wonder makes me think there is some sort of connection. Probably the trucks were coming from the warehouse and originally the playteresters followed one of the trucks from the warehouse to the battery. But that's just speculation on my part. Just my GM brain trying to see patterns in things that might not exist. 

 

Maybe Steve had someone in the playtest group who could burrow or teleport or phase into whatever remains of Gravelly? The thing is, none of this stuff matters, unless of course the GM decides that it does.

The whole complex, or just selected parts of it would make a great base for a villain, a superhero team, crime syndicate, or secret government organization . So much so that I think there was more planned that what made it into the book. Maybe Steve planned on the PCs taking over the battery after the defeated Doctor Dread and was planning on turning this into their base. If I were going to base a superhero hero team in San Francisco it wouldn't be a bad choice. 

 

 

4 hours ago, dvdmacateer said:

In the Endicott period, a large portion of Gravelly Beach Battery was destroyed or built over during the construction of Battery Kirby. Only a magazine Traverse of the old battery
https://web.archive.org/web/20040224225208/http://www.nps.gov/prsf/coast_defense/third_system/lime_point/gravelly.htm

10 is the most infuriating  I have found a pdfs with maps of the area but the but the resolution is pathetic.  From this map it could be an engineering building the  the square above spencer with what looks like an M.

I found many of the same maps.

Sadly the poor quality is a common feature of a lot of 20th century stuff. There was almost certainly a better, bigger, full color version of it organically but this trimmed down version was probably printed in some reference book in two color black & white (no shading) at 1/10th the size to fit onto one or two pages, and that's the version that we got a scan off. A scan that was probably done as a heavily compressed jpg or worst still a gif back in the days when 1 megabyte was a huge picture. 

I got a couple of general area maps that I found online that aren't quite a detailed but easier to read and much easier to follow. I can post them if you like.  

 

I found some photos and such from a site from a guy who wrote some books on the subject. Probably the definitive reference today, if you want to go that deep into it. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Atgxtg]

Oh, I just noticed you can't backtrack to the full list of forts and maps from the link I originally posted.

Here is the full listing of the forts (I think): https://www.militarymuseum.org/HDSF.html

Funston and BArry look reall interesting to me for scenario purposes (better maps, phtos and more uses)

But if you go to the main site (https://www.militarymuseum.org/) there are tons of other links photos and stuff on the area that might be useful to a GM, or just interesting.

 

And another source lists the forts and batteries as follows (note that it conflicts with the above):

Edited September 1 by Atgxtg

[dvdmacateer]

[dvdmacateer]

The batteries around  Kirby Cove and Lime point  aren't even covered never mind underground  and aren't really suitable for Dread's underground.  Some of the others further to the west  like  Battery Townsley at Fort Cronkhite or Hill 129  at Fort Barry have cover and are a bit more like something you may have seen at Normandy.  I am going to use the Fort Spencer location and bodge together a map for the above ground from some of the other sites. 

Hill 129

Battery Townsley gun emplacement #1

Edited Wednesday at 11:22 AM by dvdmacateer

[rsanford]

Isn’t the Internet marvelous these days! Plus, you are both persistent!

[Atgxtg]

6 hours ago, dvdmacateer said:

 

Ooh, that map has potential. I can clean that one up I think.

 

5 hours ago, rsanford said:

Isn’t the Internet marvelous these days! Plus, you are both persistent!

I can't speak for dvdmacateer, but I'm a bit thick at times. 

Edited September 1 by Atgxtg

[rsanford]

20 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

Ooh, that map has potential. I can clean that one up I think.

 

I can't speak for dvdmacateer, but I'm a bit thick at times. 

Me too! It can be a useful trait!

[Atgxtg]

40 minutes ago, rsanford said:

Me too! It can be a useful trait!

But you pay for it.

Awhileback on another fourm we got to chatting about how we tend to watch things as GMs, with an eye towards using it for gaming. At first it was mostly deleiberate, but over time it becmae second nature and now it's hard to watch something and not consider gaming applications. Especially if it something in a liscensed franchise that has an RPG. You see a new class of spaceship or a new character and you mind drifts towards working out game stats based on what you are seeing. It's a useful ability but somethimes it can be annoying when you just want to watch the show, So you pay for it.

[rsanford]

3 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

But you pay for it.

Awhileback on another fourm we got to chatting about how we tend to watch things as GMs, with an eye towards using it for gaming. At first it was mostly deleiberate, but over time it becmae second nature and now it's hard to watch something and not consider gaming applications. Especially if it something in a liscensed franchise that has an RPG. You see a new class of spaceship or a new character and you mind drifts towards working out game stats based on what you are seeing. It's a useful ability but somethimes it can be annoying when you just want to watch the show, So you pay for it.

Well, I barely watch tv, so that isn’t a big issue for me. But what might be worse, is my obsession with finding things useful for my games on the Intranet, and then making really, really, extensive notes on how I might use them in the future. 9 years ago, the notes got so extensive (many thousands of pages), that I created a spreadsheet to keep track just of the notes. The spreadsheet is over 100 pages now… 

Also, I have this tendency to go down rabbit holes too easily. Sometimes I will search the Internet and Wayback Machine for days looking to fill out some concept I have… 

[Atgxtg]

1 hour ago, rsanford said:

Well, I barely watch tv, so that isn’t a big issue for me.

It's not just with TV. It is with just about anything. Old movies, old books, signs, strange buildings you drive by. Commercials for new high-tech goodies that I'd never buy.  I've gotten sceanrio ideas from someone's screensaver. Anything

1 hour ago, rsanford said:

But what might be worse, is my obsession with finding things useful for my games on the Intranet, and then making really, really, extensive notes on how I might use them in the future. 9 years ago, the notes got so extensive (many thousands of pages), that I created a spreadsheet to keep track just of the notes. The spreadsheet is over 100 pages now… 

Yup. That's part of it. Welcome to the club. 

Tge nice thing about the net is that you have lots and lots of information at your fingertips. The bad thing about the net is that  you have lots and lots of information at your fingertips. Too much. It alctually the same problem that the miltiary has, and why trhey want to automate more stuff so pilots have less to worry about.

1 hour ago, rsanford said:

Also, I have this tendency to go down rabbit holes too easily. Sometimes I will search the Internet and Wayback Machine for days looking to fill out some concept I have… 

That's not all bad. You want to do due diligence and sometimes it takes a little more work to get the info you want and then confirm it. For instance on this particular rabbit hole I found conflicting information on which guns were at which battery so I dug deeper and found out more and got more maps and diagrams. But it is certainly more time and effort than I would have done if there was a key in the book somewhere that answered the OP's question. 

On the plus side being a GM is one of the few good explanations if ever questioned about your search history. 

 

 

[dvdmacateer]

Here is the full map

Edited September 4 by dvdmacateer

[Atgxtg]

Nice!

Quite a lot considering you initial post.

 

BTW, Did you want me to get rid of the brown like I did for the smaller sample?

 

[dvdmacateer]

34 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

Nice!

Quite a lot considering you initial post.

 

BTW, Did you want me to get rid of the brown like I did for the smaller sample?

 

Thanks but I won't be directly using that map just using the positions to mark up another one. 

[Atgxtg]

1 hour ago, dvdmacateer said:

Thanks but I won't be directly using that map just using the positions to mark up another one. 

Speaking of which, what are your plans for the adventure? You did a lot of work just to ID a bunch of concrete ruins, and hillside. 

[dvdmacateer]

22 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

Speaking of which, what are your plans for the adventure? You did a lot of work just to ID a bunch of concrete ruins, and hillside. 

I am running it starting Saturday with the the port and the city hall. But knowing my players they won't get passed the port.

[dvdmacateer]

They got their asses kicked.  One of them went to scout.  The other two didn't wait  they charged in and two snipers with impaling laser rifles (even with range modifiers they manged  4 specials) and a guy with a snare gun chewed them up.  Not sure they are going to make it to city hall never mind Dread's HQ. I will probably have to switch the meeting with the Flying Squad to a hospital ward instead. 

 

Edited September 8 by dvdmacateer

[rsanford]

Are you’re players experienced SuperWorld or BRP players?

[dvdmacateer]

7 hours ago, rsanford said:

Are you’re players experienced SuperWorld or BRP players?

None of the players have played Superworld. I ran one very short scenario  in the 80s. They are have quite a lot of experience of BRP especially the one that decided because he had a reckless handicap that meant suicidal. I blame his D&D background.