Still confused about shields...

[LivingTriskele]

Sorry guys, I'm banging my head against this. Page 206 discuses the 'base chance' to block missile weapons, starting with 15% (for small shields) and going up 90% (if you're using a large shield and kneeling). In this case (as described on page 231) these chances of blocking missile fire are not successful against special or critical hits.

The third paragraph on page 206 says "Under most circumstances, shields cannot effectively parry extremely fast missile weapons like firearms or energy weapons, and are of limited use against hand propelled weapons like arrows, sling stones, and spears."

Though this paragraph says that shields are of "limited use against hand propelled weapons" the above base chances of blocking missile fire (15% - 90%) seem pretty good.

I've been told these base chances (15% - 90%) are a passive defense, not a parry. Is this so? The example given on page 206 refers to the above game mechanic as a parry.

For example, if your character tries to parry an arrow with a small shield, his or her chance is an unmodified default chance of 15%, rather than his or her normal skill rating.

Is the 15% in the above example the base *skill* chance given in the list of shields on page 263, or is it the base chance of blocking missile fire, based upon the shield's small size, as described on page 206? Since in both situations the chance is the same, I'm not sure how to read the example. It could suggest to me that arrows are considered fast missile weapons and treated as such, as described on page 231. Is this the case?

The term 'base chance' suggests to me that you can add something to it, like your skill level, but in the case of the base chances (15% - 90%) described on page 206, this would make a foe carrying a shield nigh impossible to wound with a bow. Plus, adding your skill level would make it an active parry, correct? I think I'm having a problem with semantics here.

Just to clarify: if I try to parry a firearm with a shield, I can only use the base chance with that shield, as given on page 263 (not including my skill level).

I'm not sure if I'm making the source of my confusion clear. :confused:

Edited October 30, 2008 by LivingTriskele

[NickMiddleton]

Sorry guys, I'm banging my head against this. Page 206 discuses the 'base chance' to block missile weapons, starting with 15% (for small shields) and going up 90% (if you're using a large shield and kneeling). In this case (as described on page 231) these chances of blocking missile fire are not successful against special or critical hits.

The third paragraph on page 206 says "Under most circumstances, shields cannot effectively parry extremely fast missile weapons like firearms or energy weapons, and are of limited use against hand propelled weapons like arrows, sling stones, and spears."

Though this paragraph says that shields are of "limited use against hand propelled weapons" the above base chances of blocking missile fire (15% - 90%) seem pretty good.

I've been told these base chances (15% - 90%) are a passive defence, not a parry. Is this so? The example given on page 206 refers to the above game mechanic as a parry.

Err, can one really describe kneeling behind a shield as a parry?!

Is the 15% in the above example the base *skill* chance given in the list of shields on page 263, or is it the base chance of blocking missile fire, based upon the shield's small size, as described on page 206? Since in both situations the chance is the same, I'm not sure how to read the example. It could suggest to me that arrows are considered fast missile weapons and treated as such, as described on page 231. Is this the case?

The 15%/30%/60%/90% chances are the chances the shield will block the missile. Character skill is not involved, and the highest chance (90%) requires that the character be stationary, kneeling and taking cover behind a large shield.

The term 'base chance' suggests to me that you can add something to it, like your skill level, but in the case of the base chances (15% - 90%) described on page 206, this would make a foe carrying a shield nigh impossible to wound with a bow. Plus, adding your skill level would make it an active parry, correct? I think I'm having a problem with semantics here.

Just to clarify: if I try to parry a firearm with a shield, I can only use the base chance with that shield, as given on page 263 (not including my skill level).

I'm not sure if I'm making the source of my confusion clear.

I think you are over reading the phrase "base chance" in the following:

Against missile weapons, a half or small shield has a base 15% chance to block a missile, a full shield has a 30% chance to block a missile, and a large shield has a 60% chance. If your character kneels behind it, a full shield has a 60% chance to block a missile, and a large shield offers a 90% chance.

In this case "base chance" means that chance starts at 15% for the smallest type of shields, and then is increased by other factors, such as size of shield, and character action and position: the chance starts at 15%, a bigger shield makes it 30%, the largest size shield increases it again to 60% and taking up a static defensive position behind a large shield increases it again to a 90% chance of intercepting normal successes.

The subsequent section:

Under most circumstances, shields cannot effectively parry extremely fast missile weapons like firearms or energy weapons, and are of limited use against hand propelled weapons like arrows, sling stones, and spears. In these cases, a default chance is substituted instead of

your character’s skill.

For example, if your character tries to parry an arrow with a

small shield, his or her chance is an unmodified default chance

of 15%, rather than his or her normal skill rating.

See “Missile Weapons” below, and the spot rules for “Shields and Missile Fire” on page 231 of Chapter Seven: Spot Rules for additional detail.

... is saying that if a character wants to actively parry a hand propelled missile, they do so at the shields base skill chance.

Does that help?

Nick

Edited October 30, 2008 by NickMiddleton

[LivingTriskele]

Hey Nick, thanks--between you and Sarah I've got this understood now, I think. Extrapolating upon my own confusion is like audio feedback

I guess, the only question I want to make clear is which missile weapons are subject to the shield's passive block chance, and which are parried at the shield's base skill chance. It sounds like only slower (hand-thrown )weapons are subject to this passive defense but 'faster' missile weapons aren't, and have to be parried at the shields base skill chance. Where do bows and crossbows fall in regards to this?

... is saying that if a character wants to actively parry a hand propelled missile, they do so at the shields base skill chance.

But aren't hand-propelled weapons subject to the passive defense block chances? Do you have the option of using the passive defense block chance and if that doesn't work, trying to parry at the shield's base skill chance?

Uh oh, here comes that audio feedback again...

[NickMiddleton]

Hey Nick, thanks--between you and Sarah I've got this understood now, I think. Extrapolating upon my own confusion is like audio feedback

I guess, the only question I want to make clear is which missile weapons are subject to the shield's passive block chance, and which are parried at the shield's base skill chance. It sounds like only slower (hand-thrown )weapons are subject to this passive defence but 'faster' missile weapons aren't, and have to be parried at the shields base skill chance. Where do bows and crossbows fall in regards to this?

We're beginning to get into an area where things aren't as clear cut as the could be.

My interpretation:

"...shields cannot effectively parry extremely fast missile weapons like firearms or energy weapons, and are of limited use against hand propelled weapons like arrows, sling stones, and spears. In these cases, a default chance is substituted instead of your character’s skill."

Fast weapons ARE subject to the passive defence: there is simply that chance that your shield will "happen" to get in the way, and that "passive defence" is not, as previously discussed an active parry. If using hit locations, it would only apply if the location hit is one the shield normally covers (see the shield table).

Against hand propelled missiles (arrows from bows, spears, sling stones) you ALSO get to actively parry if you wish, but only at the base skill chance for the shield; and doing so uses up your Parry action, precluding using it against other attacks, or for something else. Personally I'd probably allow the base skill parry chance for crossbow bolts as well, but you can argue that either way.

But aren't hand-propelled weapons subject to the passive defence block chances? Do you have the option of using the passive defence block chance and if that doesn't work, trying to parry at the shield's base skill chance?

I think the passive block chance is always operating if you have a large piece of armour strapped to your arm.

I'm a mean and nasty GM, so I would say you have to declare as part of you statement of intent whether you intend to try and parry missile weapon attacks, and wouldn't allow a character to wait and see whether the passive defence worked before committing to use a parry. If nothing else, in my steel weapon combat experience (and some hair raising stories from an ex-army mate) it IS possible to dodge or block arrows or bullets (well, the first bullet at least) - you just have to be able to see the shooter...

How's that?

Nick

[LivingTriskele]

Great! Thanks for getting back, that helps quite a bit.

Fast weapons ARE subject to the passive defence: there is simply that chance that your shield will "happen" to get in the way, and that "passive defence" is not, as previously discussed an active parry. If using hit locations, it would only apply if the location hit is one the shield normally covers (see the shield table).

I thought this rule was only used if the shield is slung. I guess there's a lot of room for GM-ruling here.