Example of Combat

[Russ Massey]

Some have been asking for an example to help with issues of Strike Ranks and splitting attacks over 100%. I've put one together in narrative form which I hope might help show how these things work in practice. There is no doubt that I will have made a mistake or too along the way, but if you spot any error please let me know in the comments and I'll correct it as needed.

 

As part of a ceremony being conducted by Rurik Runespear and the Aldyami of the Garden, the Troll Bridge has to be held against Darkness for one full day and night.

Thirty Yelmalion soldiers drove off the trolls guarding the bridge at the start of the day, but now night has fallen and the Uz, under the leadership of Death Lord Borag Darkfriend, have gathered on the east bank to counter-attack their hated foe.

The Yelmalions are formed across the centre of bridge, ten wide and two deep with pike and fixed shield. They crouch, while ten other soldiers stand behind with bows, ready to engage any attackers at range. They are led by Light Son Orlio Noonborn, who has an extended Sunbright spell in operation to hamper any attack by shades or trollkin.

There has been sporadic sling fire from beyond visual range for the last half hour. Most of the missiles pinged harmlessly off the shields held by the phalanx, and a couple of lucky hits were easily dealt with through healing magic. Orlio is confident that his man can stand firm against such desultory harassment, and is expecting a frothing charge against his spear line at some point before dawn.

Borag is not a typical Zorak Zorani however, and does not favour the traditional berserk frontal charge if there are more cunning alternatives. This is part of the reason why his warband seems to attract the oddball initiates of the cult, such as morocanth, humans, baboons, trollkin, and even a crazed duck. Borag is floating downstream on a log raft. He has already cast rune magics in preparation. His maul has Seal Wound (prevents any damage from being magically healed) and 2 points of Crush (+2D4 damage and +20% to hit). He himself has Darkwalk and Darksee (Borag is human, not actually a troll) already cast. As he nears the bridge his allied spirit in his lead maul casts 3 points of the Jumping spell. This is a spirit magic of the Gerak Kag hero cult which will allow Borag to leap 9m vertically or horizontally, enough to reach the central height of the bridge from the river surface.

As the raft closes, Borag climbs to his feet, invisible in the shadow of the bridge structure thanks to the Darkwalk spell, and then leaps. A roll is needed to land on target, but he is a master of jumping and does not fail. As he clears the edge of the bridge he is no longer in shadow thanks to the Sunbright spell, and appears as if from nowhere to land solidly behind the phalanx of Yelmalions. His last action while jumping is to cast Berserker on himself. He is normally 120% with his Maul. The Berserker spell increases this by half again to 180%, and the effect of the Crush spell takes it to 200%. He failed his move quietly skill roll of 63% when he landed (his enchanted lead plate armour does not subtract from this) by rolling 95, and so the GM rules that Orlio has heard something behind him.

This is the start of the formal combat process. Borag has landed 6m behind Orlio and a further 3m from the rear rank of archers. The GM states that Orlio will spin around while readying his spear and shield. Orlio will also giving a warning cry to alert his men. The GM does not tell Borag that Orlio’s allied spirit in a hawk is going to cast Protection 4 on Orlio, as the hawk is flying high above the bridge, and Borag has no clue that it is there.

With Berserker in effect Borag’s intentions are fairly predictable. He will charge Orlio and make a single attack on the earliest SR possible, hoping to hit before the Yelmalion can have his shield ready. Borag’s SR is 1 for his SIZ, 1 for his DEX and 1 for the Maul, so he normally attacks on SR3. He will have to add a further 2 to cover the 6m distance to Orlio (1SR per 3 m movement - see p192) so he will strike on SR5. His allied spirit will cast Bludgeon 4 on the Maul as Borag charges. This will take place on SR3, as Spirit SR due to DEX is zero (I do not believe this is spelled out in the Bestiary, but used to be the case in earlier editions of the rules IIRC) and we add 1 for each point of magic after the first.

Note that Berserker gives Borag the equivalent of 2 points of Countermagic, but the Allied Spirit is bound inside the enchanted lead head of the maul and is casting directly on itself so does not have to penetrate that protection. If it wanted to cast a spell on Borag (say healing), then the spell would have to be at least 4 points (2 greater than the level of Countermagic) in order to take effect.

With intentions stated we proceed to movement. Borag charges into the Light Son, who spins to face him.

Now we resolve attacks and spells in order of SR. On SR3 Borag’s Allied Spirit rolls 43 and casts Bludgeon 4 successful. The hit chance for the maul increases to 220%. At the same time, Orlio’s Allied Spirit casts Protection 4, and the rune lord’s gold inlaid armour begins to pulse with light.

Orlio has a DEX of 21 (a gift from his God) and a SIZ of 15, so his SR is 0 + 1. The one handed spear has SR2 and the Large Shield SR3, so adding the 5 ranks needed to ready them he will not be able to use his spear until SR8, or his shield until SR9. If the shield had been strapped on his back the process would have taken 10SR instead of 5, but Orlio was expecting action, and the shield was leant against his legs.

Borag attacks on SR5, with his skill being reduced from 220% to 100%, and therefore also subtracting 120% from Orlio’s Dodge, the only defence he has available to oppose the attack. Needless to say, this dodge roll will be at 5%. Borag rolls 40, a normal hit. Orlio rolls 75 and fails to get out of the way. The maul thumps into the Light Son’s abdomen for 2D8+1D6+2D4+4 damage. The total is 18 points, and only 11 is stopped by the armour and Protection 4 spell. The remaining 7 exceeds Orlio’s abdomen hit points by 2, and he falls to the ground with both legs useless. He can heal but do nothing else except slowly bleed to death until brought to positive hit points. Or at least he could have healed if it wasn’t for the Seal Wound spell. As it is he can use a heal 2 to stop the bleeding, but cannot magically recover any hit points, and short of Divine Intervention (DI) he is out of the fight.

As Borag’s attack was so high he would probably have done better to split his attack. He could have made his initial attack on SR5 and a second attack on SR8, although by that time Orlio would have his spear ready and available to parry, though not his shield.

In this case we check Borag’s base skill, which is 120%. He decides to split his attack in two using 50% for the first attack and 70% for the second. Each of these percentages is increased by half again due to the Berserker spell, so this makes them 75% and 105%. Then he adds the enhancements from Crush and Bludgeon, so each attack gets another +40%, making them 115% and 145%.

The attack on SR5 is reduced to 100% and also subtracts 15% from Orlio’s dodge, bringing it down to 38%. Borag rolls 12, which is a special hit. Orlio rolls 71 and fails to dodge. The special hit is a crush, and so Borag’s strength damage bonus of 1D6 gives an extra 6 points to the total damage rolled. This time it is 30 points to the left arm. 19 of this total will get past the armour and this exceeds triple the 4 HP on the arm itself. The arm is shattered and Orlio is incapacitated. His total HP drop by 12, and the remaining 7 damage is wasted.

The attack on SR8 goes ahead against the now prone and unmoving Orlio. The GM awards a +40% bonus against such a target, and as this is an unopposed roll the full 185% will be used for calculating special hits. There will be a critical on 01-09 and a crush on 10-37. Borag rolls a 12 and crushes his foes other arm. Orlio perishes from total damage of 24 taken.

Orlio should probably have called for DI to leave the scene after he went down from the first hit. With Borag looming over his corpse he does not feel that a resurrection would give him more than a few more moments before he is killed again, so instead he asks Yelmalio to inspire his troops to recover his body. With a D10 roll of 2 he loses 2 of his 7 rune points, but Yelmalio answers the call. With uncanny precision the phalanx raise their spears, swiftly spin 180 degrees and then lower their pikes to face the berserker, while the archers step aside to the edges of the bridge. With the light of fanaticism glowing in their eyes they advance on the Death Lord as one…

 

[PhilHibbs]

Nice. Looks like a lot of work went into this.

1 hour ago, Russ Massey said:

Note that Berserker gives Borag the equivalent of 2 points of Countermagic, but the Allied Spirit is bound inside the enchanted lead head of the maul and is casting directly on itself so does not have to penetrate that protection.

I don't think that Countermagic protects your items. The rules are unclear on this point, though.

As an aside, the process of splitting, then adding, then reducing to 100%, involves a lot of calculations (particularly the special and critical chances), which have to be repeated each round and each attack as the circumstances (notably, the ability being used to defend)  will often change. This is unfortunate, but I can't see an easy way around it.

[Russ Massey]

5 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

Nice. Looks like a lot of work went into this.

I don't think that Countermagic protects your items. The rules are unclear on this point, though.

As an aside, the process of splitting, then adding, then reducing to 100%, involves a lot of calculations (particularly the special and critical chances), which have to be repeated each round and each attack as the circumstances (notably, the ability being used to defend)  will often change. This is unfortunate, but I can't see an easy way around it.

I can't remember how I used to play Countermagic in past campaigns. I don't honestly think it ever really came up, as no one in my games ever uses Dullblade, and Countermagic was never a common spell except among Shield-using rune levels.

Yep, splitting attacks does need a bit of maths to sort out. As you say, no real way around it, and players seem quite happy to do thework as long as they are getting to steamroller hapless victims with their leet skilz.

[PhilHibbs]

44 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

I don't think that Countermagic protects your items. The rules are unclear on this point, though.

On the other hand, Crack on page 94 of the Bestiary says:

Quote

Objects carried by a character
protected by Shield or Countermagic may be destroyed only
if the Crack’s caster puts enough magic points behind the
spell to break through the defending spell.

 

[Russ Massey]

48 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

On the other hand, Crack on page 94 of the Bestiary says:

 

That's good enough for me. So protection magic includes clothes, worn items and carried weapons within its ambit.

[Skovari]

14 hours ago, Russ Massey said:

Borag attacks on SR5, with his skill being reduced from 220% to 100%, and therefore also subtracting 120% from Orlio’s Dodge, the only defence he has available to oppose the attack. 

My only comment here is that Borag only has to lower his skill enough to get Orlio's Dodge to 5% in my opinion (and how I play, but I also think it is what the rules intend).

So if Orlio's Dodge was 100% (to pick a number as I am not sure what it was), then Borag only has to take 95% off his attack to get him down to 5%.  Why does this matter you might ask?  Well it gives the critical and special chances for Borag for a 125% skill (220 - 95) instead of a 100% skill as the example gives.

But great example!  These are the types of things that will show someone better how they can run their RQG game.

I also rule than an allied spirit in your armor or weapons (or object on you) doesn't need to get through the countermagic on the person.  If in a familiar, that is different.  But seems to me that countermagic covers the items, so allied spirits in them are essentially inside the countermagic.

Edited October 22, 2018 by Skovari

[Russ Massey]

2 hours ago, Skovari said:

My only comment here is that Borag only has to lower his skill enough to get Orlio's Dodge to 5% in my opinion (and how I play, but I also think it is what the rules intend).

So if Orlio's Dodge was 100% (to pick a number as I am not sure what it was), then Borag only has to take 95% off his attack to get him down to 5%.  Why does this matter you might ask?  Well it gives the critical and special chances for Borag for a 125% skill (220 - 95) instead of a 100% skill as the example gives.

But great example!  These are the types of things that will show someone better how they can run their RQG game.

I also rule than an allied spirit in your armor or weapons (or object on you) doesn't need to get through the countermagic on the person.  If in a familiar, that is different.  But seems to me that countermagic covers the items, so allied spirits in them are essentially inside the countermagic.

Thanks for the comments.

I don't think the rules as written on pages 201 and 202 back up your interpretation of just using anough of the skill excess above 100 to lower the opponent to 5%. I beleive the last bullet point allowing for higher chances of ciriticals and specials is referring only to unopposed rolls, but the eules are not completely unambiguous. The first bullet point seems to say that the opposed skill is always lowered to 100%.

I've always played allied spirits the way you suggest as well, but it's not currently backed by the rules as written as far as I can see. I also remeber from earlier editions that spells affecting mentality used to pass along the mindlink of an allied spirit, so that demoralising one would demoralise (or befuddle, or fanaticise) each of them. Again, I think the new rules are not explicit on this point.

[PhilHibbs]

8 hours ago, Russ Massey said:

I don't think the rules as written on pages 201 and 202 back up your interpretation of just using anough of the skill excess above 100 to lower the opponent to 5%. I beleive the last bullet point allowing for higher chances of ciriticals and specials is referring only to unopposed rolls, but the eules are not completely unambiguous. The first bullet point seems to say that the opposed skill is always lowered to 100%.

It may be true that the rules do say this, but I think it's a fairly intuitive conclusion that @Skovari has come to. If the rules do not work this way, then they should.

Alice has 500% attack, Bob has 20% dodge.

Do you reduce Bob's dodge to 5% and Alice's attack to 100%, giving her only a 5% critical and 20% special chance? I would submit that that is a little unfair on Alice. I think it makes sense to reduce Alice's skill by 15%, not 400%.

I can understand that the rules weren't really written with such overwhelming skill differences in mind, and in practice Alice is probably going to split her attacks and hit Bob, Carol and Dave all in the first round of combat. Probably poor old Eddie as well, if she has the strike ranks.

Edited October 22, 2018 by PhilHibbs

[Skovari]

2 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

*Edit* I just realised that I got this wrong, you only reduce the skill if both are over 100%, isn't that right?

I know this isn't true as the combat example on page 201-202 shows the case where a skill lower than 100% is lowered if the opposing skill is greater than 100%.  The first example on 201 in the "Combat With Skills Above 100%" area.

[PhilHibbs]

3 minutes ago, Skovari said:

I know this isn't true as the combat example on page 201-202 shows the case where a skill lower than 100% is lowered if the opposing skill is greater than 100%.  The first example on 201 in the "Combat With Skills Above 100%" area.

Ah ok thanks. I don't have my rulebook to hand. Well, that's a lie, but I don't want to load it up at work!

[Skovari]

8 hours ago, Russ Massey said:

I don't think the rules as written on pages 201 and 202 back up your interpretation of just using anough of the skill excess above 100 to lower the opponent to 5%. I beleive the last bullet point allowing for higher chances of ciriticals and specials is referring only to unopposed rolls, but the eules are not completely unambiguous. The first bullet point seems to say that the opposed skill is always lowered to 100%.

I also don't see where the rules as written then support your method either as there is not an example in the range we are talking about here.  The first bullet point is only lowering it to 100% and the parry to 55% because there is NOT enough to lower the parry to 5% and you can't lower your attack below 100%.  So this doesn't really tell either of us anything.  We both needed the attack to be much higher in that example to see what their "official" intent is.

But the FINAL bullet clearly says "the chance of a special or critical success continues to increase or decrease, based on the final modified chance of success".  So not just unopposed rolls, but clearly opposed rolls that change the percentage of the skills used.

I asked this question in the rules question thread elsewhere.  Hopefully we can get the "official" answer and then decide how we want to run it in our games of course.

Edited October 22, 2018 by Skovari

[Skovari]

1 minute ago, PhilHibbs said:

Ah ok thanks. I don't have my rulebook to hand. Well, that's a lie, but I don't want to load it up at work!

I keep the latest PDF handy always on my tablet.  Great to go over when I have some spare time and re-read sections to get them into my brain!

[PhilHibbs]

10 hours ago, Skovari said:

My only comment here is that Borag only has to lower his skill enough to get Orlio's Dodge to 5% in my opinion (and how I play, but I also think it is what the rules intend).

I just saw your question on the official rules thread, and that made me realize that this rule also means that the GM can't keep the opponent's skill a secret.

Player: "My final chance is 250%, so what's my chance to hit?"

GM: "160%"

Player: "Ok, so I know he has a 90% skill. Right, I'll split my attacks 150-100 next round."

*Edit* He actually has 95% skill, so the player got it wrong. Don't tell him!

Edited October 22, 2018 by PhilHibbs

[PhilHibbs]

3 minutes ago, Skovari said:

I also don't see where the rules as written then support your method either as there is not an example in the range we are talking about here.

The rules as written absolutely do not support this, but I think it is within the spirit, it's an obvious fix to my mind.

[Skovari]

5 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

I just saw your question on the official rules thread, and that made me realize that this rule also means that the GM can't keep the opponent's skill a secret.

Player: "My final chance is 250%, so what's my chance to hit?"

GM: "160%"

Player: "Ok, so I know he has a 90% skill. Right, I'll split my attacks 150-100 next round."

Well it's a game of numbers at that point.  So players will always try and min / max things.  Why it seems easiest to me and makes sense to lower the attack just the needed amount.  Works the same for enemies also of course and keeps everyone level.

Edited to say although I like the MGF that can come from the attacker having to guess what percent to use to lower it.  If he chooses too much, his loss.

Edited October 22, 2018 by Skovari

[Psullie]

The first bullet on page 201 clearly states that >100% skills are reduced by the the amount over 100%. So unless the opponent also has a 100+ skill, their skill is reduced by the excess, with the same value reducing the opponent. In eta examples above, Alice drops to 100 (with Special @20 and critical @5), Bob's dodge is lowered by 400 taking well beyond Zero which defaults to 5%  (taking into account the rule on p144)

When multiple opponents engage with 100+ skills - all skills drop until the highest is 100, so Alice @ 500 and Chris with 450 and Dave with 300 would be Alice 100 (-400), Chris 50 (-400) and Dave defaulting to 05 (-400) with all their specials and crits accordingly. 

I believe that this is a deliberate flattening of combat skills to lessen the impact of overpowered characters and make combat dangerous even for the masters.

I think using the Wind Lord example is a poor choice because it is only true if the attack is not parried or dodged, which is rare, a Bow skill is more likely to be a straight roll. 

Edited October 22, 2018 by Psullie

[PhilHibbs]

9 minutes ago, Psullie said:

I believe that this is a deliberate flattening of combat skills to lessen the impact of overpowered characters and make combat dangerous even for the masters.

The only effect that it will have in practice is more splitting of attacks, once the player is confident that the opponent is of sufficiently low skill. Maybe that is deliberate and intended, that you go in at full skill in round 1, and if that goes well, you try splitting your attacks in round 2, until you get a feel for how much better than the opponent you really are.

I very much doubt that this is, though. I think this is merely an oversight that has never come up in practice because GMs tend not to throw in massively under- or overpowered opposition.

Edited October 22, 2018 by PhilHibbs

[Skovari]

30 minutes ago, Psullie said:

The first bullet on page 201 clearly states that >100% skills are reduced by the the amount over 100%. So unless the opponent also has a 100+ skill, their skill is reduced by the excess, with the same value reducing the opponent. In eta examples above, Alice drops to 100 (with Special @20 and critical @5), Bob's dodge is lowered by 400 taking well beyond Zero which defaults to 5%

The first bullet clearly doesn't say ANYTHING about lowering the attacking skill (perhaps an over site, but you're saying it does).  Just mentions reducing the the opposing skill by the amount the attacking skill is over 100%.  So again the section here clearly doesn't answer it to your way or mind as I said above.  Why I asked for the clarification in the other thread here.  The example and verbage here is not clear either way.

The 2nd bullet enforces that the attack is not lowered also as it DOES say both combat skills are reduced, not just one.

What I think happened here is that they didn't work in an example of when skills are way far apart.  We just need an official example and clarification on this.

Edited October 22, 2018 by Skovari

[Skovari]

23 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

I very much doubt that this is, though. I think this is merely an oversight that has never come up in practice because GMs tend not to throw in massively under- or overpowered opposition.

I agree it is an oversight for rules or example showing this sort of over sight.  But it's really not hard at all to get to a level like this given rune magic, augments, and very high starting skills for many.  It's not hard to get a Humakt or Storm Bull hitting at these percents against the rabble with low skills it has to clear through to get to the big bad guy.  So I can see such a scenario happening sooner than later.  Let's see what their answer is again, then we can all decide how we want to do it in our games of course!

[Russ Massey]

4 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

It may be true that the rules do say this, but I think it's a fairly intuitive conclusion that @Skovari has come to. If the rules do not work this way, then they should.

Alice has 500% attack, Bob has 20% dodge.

Do you reduce Bob's dodge to 5% and Alice's attack to 100%, giving her only a 5% critical and 20% special chance? I would submit that that is a little unfair on Alice. I think it makes sense to reduce Alice's skill by 15%, not 400%.

I can understand that the rules weren't really written with such overwhelming skill differences in mind, and in practice Alice is probably going to split her attacks and hit Bob, Carol and Dave all in the first round of combat. Probably poor old Eddie as well, if she has the strike ranks.

She could also delay to SR12 and aim for the the least armoured location, or the head. It halves her chance, but if you have 200%+ skill it makes a good deal of sense to make everything as hard as possible. You may as well kill the lantern and fight in total darkness as well. The -75% will bother Alice not one whit.

[Skovari]

3 minutes ago, Russ Massey said:

She could also delay to SR12 and aim for the the least armoured location, or the head. It halves her chance, but if you have 200%+ skill it makes a good deal of sense to make everything as hard as possible. You may as well kill the lantern and fight in total darkness as well. The -75% will bother Alice not one whit.

With such a high skill you have ALOT of great combat options to use of course.  That's a cool part about the combat system, how to approach each round of the battle.

But a berserk Death Lord isn't going to be doing any of that fancy holding!  Zorak Zoran Smash!  

Edited October 22, 2018 by Skovari

[Russ Massey]

19 minutes ago, Skovari said:

The first bullet clearly doesn't say ANYTHING about lowering the attacking skill (perhaps an over site, but you're saying it does).  Just mentions reducing the the opposing skill by the amount the attacking skill is over 100%.  So again the section here clearly doesn't answer it to your way or mind as I said above.  Why I asked for the clarification in the other thread here.  The example and verbage here is not clear either way.

The 2nd bullet enforces that the attack is not lowered also as it DOES say both combat skills are reduced, not just one.

What I think happened here is that they didn't work in an example of when skills are way far apart.  We just need an official example and clarification on this.

You are right that it doesn't say 'attacking' skill. This is because if the opposing skills were (say) 120% shield parry and 50% spear attack then it is the parry that gets reduced to 100 and the spear to 30. It's the higher of the two skills that is lowered, and this can ber the defensive skill in some circumstances, or in non-combat matchups like listen vs move quietly.

The second bullet is not actually needed, as it is a subcategory of the situation already spelled out in the first bullet point. I think the rule is completely clear as written and I can't see what the issue is.

[PhilHibbs]

2 minutes ago, Russ Massey said:

The second bullet is not actually needed, as it is a subcategory of the situation already spelled out in the first bullet point. I think the rule is completely clear as written and I can't see what the issue is.

The issue is that if Alice with 250% attacks Bob and he doesn't dodge, she has a 13% critical and 50% special chance. If Bob dodges with his 10% skill, her critical chance goes down to 5% and special to 20%. This just seems wrong.

[Russ Massey]

35 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

The issue is that if Alice with 250% attacks Bob and he doesn't dodge, she has a 13% critical and 50% special chance. If Bob dodges with his 10% skill, her critical chance goes down to 5% and special to 20%. This just seems wrong.

Oh, I don't disagree that the oveall effect seems a little weird. The rule itself is unambiguous however. I found myself wondering if it had future implications for the way skills in heroquesting might be treated, which is why I'm wary of implementing houserules until the GMs Guide is out.

[Psullie]

1 hour ago, Skovari said:

The first bullet clearly doesn't say ANYTHING about lowering the attacking skill (perhaps an over site, but you're saying it does).  Just mentions reducing the the opposing skill by the amount the attacking skill is over 100%.  So again the section here clearly doesn't answer it to your way or mind as I said above.  Why I asked for the clarification in the other thread here.  The example and verbage here is not clear either way.

The 2nd bullet enforces that the attack is not lowered also as it DOES say both combat skills are reduced, not just one.

What I think happened here is that they didn't work in an example of when skills are way far apart.  We just need an official example and clarification on this.

I must of read that section a dozen times and my brain went to reducing the higher skill, but you are right. This does make a significant change.