Thrown weapons

[drablak]

Just to make sure I understand this correctly. The rules for thrown weapons on page 108 mention that "... the Keeper should set the difficulty level as for a firearm attack." which means regular success within range, hard up to twice the range and extreme within 4 times the range.

I assume that only applies when the defender is unaware of the attack and so has no option to Dodge?

A couple of paragraphs above that quote it mentions that thrown weapons may be opposed with the Dodge skill. If dodging, I imagine the regular opposed rolls rules are in effect and so there is no reason to set the difficulty, right? I'm inclined to give either a bonus die to the dodge or a penalty die to the thrower to take range into consideration in that case. Perhaps one die for long range and 2 dice for very long range. Is that what people do as well?

[KeeperXav]

Seems like the roles can with together without changing anything.

Attacking player makes their role based on range to see if they hit. 

If aware of the attack, the defending player can make a dodge check, requiring an equal level of success or better.

 

Only problem with this is it makes attacks harder to dodge from greater distances, but I'm okay with this. If the attacking player was accurate enough to hit from that great a distance, the dodge shouldn't be easy.

Edited February 2, 2019 by KeeperXav

[drablak]

2 hours ago, KeeperXav said:

Seems like the roles can with together without changing anything.

Attacking player makes their role based on range to see if they hit. 

If aware of the attack, the defending player can make a dodge check, requiring an equal level of success or better.

 

Only problem with this is it makes attacks harder to dodge from greater distances, but I'm okay with this. If the attacking player was accurate enough to hit from that great a distance, the doege shouldn't be easy.

Opposed rolls used in melee are very different than firearms rolls. In opposed rolls, the difficulty is set by the result of your opponent, while in a firearm roll it is set by the distance.

If the target dodges, an equal success level results in the target not taking damage. If the difficulty of the firearm is hard, what's an equal success? 

[KeeperXav]

An equal success is an equal success.

I don't see why this is difficult.

Player wants to throw a rock at the head of a cultist. Because of range, a hard success is required. Player succeeds.

The cultist, choosing to dodge, needs a hard or better to dodge. Otherwise, the rock, on target, beans him.

If the player got an exceptional success, the cultist would need one too to avoid the perfect aim.

[drablak]

I see. Interesting. But doing it like this makes it harder to dodge the further away you are, right? Seems counter-intuitive.

[KeeperXav]

I mentioned that in my first reply. Read the last paragraph

[Jack Tar]

I don't think I'd interpret the rule like you have KeeperXav. The thrown attack at long range requires a Hard success, but that is now the new minimum needed to hit for the attacker. The target dodges and needs to match it with the minimum needed to succeed in the dodge, which for them is just a normal success. That avoids the counter intuitive consequence that the further away you are the harder it is to dodge.

Put another way, it's not the absolute success levels you need to compare but the relative success levels.

Just my interpretation.

[drablak]

22 minutes ago, Jack Tar said:

I don't think I'd interpret the rule like you have KeeperXav. The thrown attack at long range requires a Hard success, but that is now the new minimum needed to hit for the attacker. The target dodges and needs to match it with the minimum needed to succeed in the dodge, which for them is just a normal success. That avoids the counter intuitive consequence that the further away you are the harder it is to dodge.

Put another way, it's not the absolute success levels you need to compare but the relative success levels.

Just my interpretation.

So, another way to put it is that you just "downgrade" the success level of the attacker by one level per range category above base range and compare those. That makes more sense to me so I'll go with that.

So at long range, where you need a hard success to hit, you downgrade result one level, and at very long range, where you need an extreme success to hit, you downgrade two levels. For example if the attacker gets an extreme success at very long range, that's like a normal success which can be dodged with a normal success. If he gets an extreme success at long range, that's like a hard success, and the dodging character needs a hard success to dodge.

I like that, thanks!

[EricW]

Dodging long range attacks is difficult.

Ever tried to catch a cricket ball? It’s difficult to exactly judge its trajectory, you have to move, then see if the ball is coming straight at you or appears to be moving sideways.

it takes time and attention to get the trajectory right, both of which might be in short supply during a melee.

A failed dodge would inadvertently take you *into* the path of the projectile. I’ve been hit plenty of times by cricket balls I was trying to catch, or balls I thought I had dodged.

[Son-of-the-Furies]

My interpretation goes like this:

(Preamble: The RAW clearly state that ranged attacks are not made as opposed rolls, so "levels of success" are irrelevant and do not come into consideration. Therefore, avoid using terms like 'hard success' and the like when discussing ranged attacks because that terminology should only be used when discussing opposed rolls, and using such terms only add to potential confusion. Although it is true that in order to determine the attackers' probability of hitting at different ranges, we use the regular, hard and extreme difficulty level numbers, the regular, hard and extreme levels of success categories don't apply - they are called "difficulty levels".)

Attacker: The ranged attack difficulty level is determined by distance when it is made at Regular, Long or Extreme range (with any other factors, like soft cover, etc. being applied as bonus or penalty die)

Defender: Target may Dodge missiles they are aware of when fired upon at Regular, Long and Extreme Range

My interpretation of this situation: The missile is on target, or it isn't, regardless of range - if on target, the Dodge roll needs to be made, if not on target, the Dodge roll doesn't, but is still performed in case of a Fumble. With longer distance [long/extreme] there may be 'more time to react', but that argument is 'cancelled out' by the 'more difficult to see/judge' factor, and vise versa for shorter [regular] range attacks). And regardless of whether or not a Dodge roll was successful, the defender was committed to that action, but may act normally on the next round (possible exception - Fumble - Keeper's decision)

Attacker: The ranged attack made at Point Blank range is made at Regular difficulty level, with one bonus die.

Defender: Target may not Dodge missiles they are aware of when fired upon at Point Blank range, but they can Dive For Cover

My interpretation of this situation: The Dodge roll (Dive) needs to be made first because if successful, the attacker must apply one penalty dice (which means the attacker loses the bonus die they would have otherwise gained for shooting at Point Blank range). If the Dodge roll (Dive) was failed, the attacker's bonus die still applies. But in both cases, the diver has committed to the dive, forfeiting their attack for this round, or if they have already attacked this round, for the next round (during which time they can only dodge other blows/shots, or dive again, with the same limitation of actions being applied for a fresh dive). If the Dodge roll (Dive) was a Fumbled, the repercussions would be worse (than as for a failed dive - Keeper's decision)

Edited March 14, 2019 by Son-of-the-Furies
added clarification

[Son-of-the-Furies]

On 2/6/2019 at 9:19 AM, EricW said:

A failed dodge would inadvertently take you *into* the path of the projectile

I've played plenty of cricket too so I know what you mean, but, I'd call that a fumble, not a 'fail'! 😉