Brian Duguid

Not necessarily. Sure, very likely, but not "inevitable". Besides, even if conflict does occur, it can be overcome - as has happened since the beginning of life. Trade eventually happens, and with trade, occasional (and later more regular) inter-breeding. Both cultures change (although, rarely, in equal proportions). We have useful examples in Glorantha, some explicit and others perhaps obscure. Many Hsunchen peoples were entirely assimilated by agriculturalist colonisers, notably the lowland Hsunchen in Kralorela. Whether they went willingly or not, we don't know. In the West, there were several "post-Hsunchen" peoples who seem to have arisen from various processes of conquest and assimilation: Pendali (lion), Entruli (boar), Enerali (horse), Redeli (bear), Enjoreli (bull), Bemuri (cattle) etc. Even at the Dawn those Western peoples were in most cases fairly distant from any Hsunchen antecedents. The Pelorian bull peoples (KefTavari, Bisosae, Kereusi, Enelvi) appear to have Hsunchen roots related to the Tawari. The Brithini are fairly explicit in claiming racial superiority over the descendents of the "animal-men" (i.e. almost everyone else). Less explicitly, there is the relationship between Odayla and Rathor, and possibly between Yinkin and Rinkona (down to the myth in Anaxial's Roster which claims that those bobcat / lynx people who allied with the theists conducted purges of those who remained loyal to their animist traditions, resulting in the murder of Rinkona). Much of the process is what those who were vanquished would IRL term "cultural genocide". Some of it may have been benign. In Third Age Glorantha, we can easily find examples of peoples who were driven to extinction; peoples who were conquered and assimilated (willingly or otherwise); people who maintain a hybrid culture, as with those Hsunchen who worship Lightbringer deities alongside their ancestral tradition, or the "degenerate descendents of Mraloti Boar Hsunchen" in the Mralot Hills; and even civilised people who romanticise their ancestral past and seek to partially recover lost traditions, as with the Ancient Beast Society in Safelster. Yet despite the best efforts of the "civilising" cultures, many Hsunchen thrive in those areas not yet converted to agriculture, the forests, mountains and jungles, following their traditional ways. Many of these are in active contact with neighboring cultures (the Pralori and some Fronelan tribes who hire out as mercenaries; the Rathori who trade at Pelt Post; the Telmori in Sartar etc) without showing much sign of any inevitable process driving them towards assimilation. Perhaps there are even Hsunchen tribes made up entirely or mostly of adoptees, refugees from "civilisation" who have chosen to buy into a different myth. I hope things work out well, fingers crossed.

Well, that's the story right there, and it will be much more than just the obvious issues. Different conceptions of the sacred, of property, of authority etc all come into play. The traditional view is clear: "agriculture, politics, war, priests and wizards" are vices (GtG, pg 21). Anyone "who submits himself to [a deity's] command, like the priests who worship the sun or storm, is a slave forever" (HQ Voices, Rathori shaman). It is taboo to "cut the Grandmother's skin with a plow, [or] bind beasts like a slave" (HQ Voices, Rathori, What my Uncle Told Me). We have the voices of Hsunchen authority figures; it's inevitable that contact with other cultures leads to intra-cultural conflict. I've drawn on that in several places in The Children of Hykim. This is the glory of Glorantha. Everything is subjective and value-laden. It's just that, just as IRL, the perspective of the dominant cultures is often seen as having more validity because it's all that we often see. I think all these tropes about the nastiness of agriculture, or the "original affluent society" of hunter-gatherers are to some extent fantasies, and where better to bring that to life and explore what they might mean than in a fantasy game? I quote the Native American chief Kondiarok earlier - it's entirely possible that the words attributed to him were pure invention. But I think it creates a more interesting game world if some of these rather idealistic conceptions (let's just call them "myths", shall we?) are taken literally and brought to life, and then yes, seen to be incomplete and afflicted by contradiction. Some of those tropes are right there in canon, just waiting for their moment of attention. The skunk-people, the Akkari, "live peacefully in isolation", having a "sensuously indulgent lifestyle" (GtG, pg 233). The original affluent society does exist, in one corner of Fronela, anyway! Some Hsunchen of course, like the Uncolings and Pralori, canonically eat their own kin. How horrid! But their very recognition that they are kin to animals is radical, in a Glorantha where animals are either "other" - wild beasts - or "property" - domesticated beasts. I think it's clear that Gloranthan canon was written by a human who sees animals as "other": only a human could write that the Uncolings "are reindeer who just happen to be able to turn into humans" (GtG, pg 21) and then later depersonalise the Uncoling reindeer as "their herds" (GtG, pg 233), like property. I think the Hsunchen create a fantastic opportunity to explore a different mindset and see what stories arise from that. Returning to Shiningbrow's question above: what is it like for a young Hsunchen encountering town and farm people, given that they understand themselves to be a wild beast in human form?

Reviving this thread. I have 3-4 players ready to start playing RQ:G online, UK time zone, weekday evening to be decided. I'd like 1-2 more, to make it easier to deal with drop-outs or unavailability. Likely to be run via Discord, probably starting with pre-gens and one or two of the Starter Set adventures as a "taster" before seeing what people would like to do beyond that.

Well, I'm specifically talking Hsunchen. In rules terms, everyone has to visit a Temple to learn new Rune spells after initiation: the Priests are as much a gatekeeper as a shaman is. And everyone gains access to all Common Rune magic known by their cult at initiation, plus one cult special Rune spell. In practice a starting Hsunchen adventurer begins with the same number of Rune points and access to the same number of cult special spells as their more civilised counterparts. Most Hsunchen cults have access to very little in the way of Common Rune magic: that's the key difference, and true for other animist cults in general. However, in counter-balance to this, animists can access pretty much any Rune spells that they can learn from an appropriate spirit with their shaman's help - they are not limited to Cult and Associated Cult special spells. This will become a bit more obvious in Cults of Glorantha when the many spirit cults are described as part of the Horned Man shamanic tradition. The Children of Hykim makes extensive use of this possibility. The animist access to a wider range of spirit magic than is available through a theist cult clearly does not make up for this deficit. So I agree entirely that animists are generally "under-powered" compared to Gloranthan theists. But perhaps less so than is sometimes perceived. Their much bigger disadvantage in times of conflict is that they rarely organise. No doubt people think they are back in the forests living the simple life again. But who knows what they are up to in there, especially the Rathori still smarting from the loss of the WBE? I'd expect many animists to be able to learn Bear Fruit from a suitable nature spirit, or other examples of fertility magic like Bless Pregnancy, Bounty, Reproduce etc. But yes, they'll only access the more impressive magic if they start hanging out with theists or if their Great Spirit has a typical theist cult as an Associated Cult (very rare!) But what would a Hsunchen hunter-gatherer do with Lightning? It's hardly relevant to their day-to-day concerns, any more than is a Howitzer to a member of an indigenous tribe in the Amazon. I think they can appreciate that others have powers they don't without caring about it very often. That regular Joe/lene initiate of Orlanth: do they know how to find the akhratish tree and persuade it to share its nuts? Can they ask Grandfather Salmon to summon fish into the local river? No? Useless storm fools! I think in general Gloranthan cultures value power that is relevant to their daily lives, and to a lesser extent which helps succeed in conflict. And relevance will be greatly defined by the way-of-life that their ancestors taught. For the Hsunchen, they are people who are also animals: they have an animal soul. Would you give up part of your ancestral soul and isolate yourself from your community just for magic that goes Boom? Some clearly do. Equally clearly many do not. Note in that regard that there are nearly twice as many bear Hsunchen in Rathorela than there are Orlanthi in Dragon Pass. Once a year, when the bear-folk assemble in Bear Grove for their annual rituals, they outnumber the population of the enormous city of Nochet by a factor of ten. Sticking with tradition can be very much the right choice, in the right environment.

There were also clearly plenty who migrated IRL, or we would not be able to have this conversation. Glorantha looks pretty "filled-up", but it's less than two millennia after people expanded from very small pre-Dawn populations. There will have been plenty of migration pre-Dawn, and adaptation to new habitats. Since the Dawn, the Telmori are the most notable migrators, but all the Fronelan tribes will have been pushed further north (at least twice). The territory of the Manirian tribes changed markedly because of flooding. Theist societies in Glorantha have an advantage of technology but not necessarily of magic. Top-level shamans are some seriously scary shit, hence the initial success of the White Bear Empire and before that the Eleven Beasts Alliance, showing what they can do when they work in concert. And it's not a clear-cut difference anyway: many of the Hsunchen tribes follow Lightbringer or other theist cults alongside their traditional ways, and have access to additional magic through local Spirit cults over and above their ancestral tradition. I'm not sure there is any evidence in canon to suggest that "every year more youngsters initiate into foreign gods than local spirits". That doesn't explain why there remain traditional Mraloti even amongst a much larger population of semi-traditional boar-worshippers, and the larger still population of mixed Entruli / Theyalan descendants. A visceral loathing for the way-of-life they can see amongst their neighbors is a credible explanation, and more likely than that the curious just stay at home. In the real world, there remain over 100 "uncontacted" indigenous tribes (i.e. known mainly from evidence such as sightings from the air), even today. And our dominant culture has vastly superior technology for traveling to, locating, and killing the indigenes, relative to the magic and technology gap within Glorantha. Even in modern times, people have left civilisation to go and live permanently with "traditional" peoples. People are motivated by more than just their view of what is more "powerful", as is evident even in the West where large numbers would prefer to adhere to their "primitive superstitions" than avail themselves of modern medicines such as vaccines. Customs and myth will remain strong motivators amongst the Hsunchen, as with all Gloranthan peoples. It's not the weakness of the Lunar Empire that makes Orlanthi barbarians struggle to resist what is evidently a superior and more enlightened civilisation. In The Children of Hykim, I've specifically addressed the inevitable conflict between the pro-contact and anti-contact factions in Hsunchen society. These strands are an obvious source of narrative interest. Take the words of the Wendat chief Kondiaronk quoted here, and put them in the mouth of a Rathori chieftain. I will quote in part below, with amendments. As Glorantha is a fantasy world, I choose to grab hold of the Hsunchen as a way to understand that society as Westerners perceive it is not inevitable, and that other ways of life are not just possible but desirable. And in doing so I'm not departing from canon in any way, just unpicking what is already there.

Most hunter/gatherer peoples were nomadic, so had the ability to do more about these issues than the agriculturalists, simply by relocating, which just wasn't an option for settled peoples. Indeed several of the early farming communities in West Asia failed, and returned to the hunter/gatherer lifestyle precisely because it was easier to survive in smaller, more mobile groups. And there is ample anthropological evidence that hunter/gatherer communities have less authoritarian cultures than others, and found the submission to authority in agricultural neighbours difficult to comprehend. So while we can accept that there are no absolutes, it's hard not to imagine Gloranthan cultures feeling likewise, especially as it's already written into the official lore. Those Dawn Age histories of Theyalan missionaries bringing the "good news" of the Lightbringer cults to the heathens in the forests read very much like IRL evangelical missionaries and colonisers. Complete with genocidal massacres of "primitive" peoples (the Kivitti etc), even down to deliberate destruction of their cultures and religions (the imprisonment of the Tawari bull gods, and that people's conversion to the culture of the victors). These are good things: they make Gloranthan history credible, and sow seeds for ongoing conflict and story. Sure, but in Glorantha what people believe matters, it comes from their myth, and it determines their reality. The Hsunchen consider agriculture taboo. Why? Like all Gloranthan peoples, they see their lifestyle as mythically correct. I think it's far more interesting to have the indigenous people in Glorantha having myths about a fall from paradise; to have the close relationship to their natural environment that follows from being able to talk directly to nature spirits; etc. They have fertility, healing and curative magic. IRL there's ample evidence that many indigenous cultures did (and do) live amidst relative abundance with an excess of leisure time compared to "civilised" people; it would defy rationality to imagine that similar cultures in Glorantha don't have the same blessings. I'm struggling to see the relevance of this. Modern indigenous peoples use clothing and other technology from their industrialised neighbours. Gloranthan Hsunchen work for or rob neighbours to get what they want. In real history, there are many examples of "civilised" peoples going to live with the "savages" precisely because their encounters taught them that they had an easier, less stressful, less anxious life, with less obvious political oppression. They happily sacrificed the supposed merits of modern life to gain that. And I doubt very much they don't like to be around other people - they sought comfort amongst a different community. In Glorantha, the Hsunchen have a specific mechanism to welcome refugees from other cultures: an adoption ritual. A good book on this from the anthropological perspective is "The Dawn of Everything" by David Graeber and David Wengrow.

Good point, pushed too hard on that one 🙂

Indeed. I see Hsunchen antagonism to agricultural lifestyles as thematic, not prescriptive. The Calusa of Florida were an interesting real-world example of a "monarchical" hunter-gatherer people, subsisting primarily from seafood. I wonder whether many East Isles might resemble this culture, or possibly the Sofali.

Deities and their myths reflect the process of transition from hunting/foraging to pastoralism and cultivation. Hippoi was originally just the horse goddess: Hyalor had to domesticate her for the horse peoples to then exploit the animal. Mralota was the goddess of wild boar, and a new deity or hero, Entru, was needed before they could become farm animals. Eiritha's very title as "herd mother" shows that we only really know the mother of hoofed beasts through the lens of those who farm them. If the legendary (mythical?) wild Aurochs survived we might have a different view of Eiritha. I'm looking forward to reading more about the Grain Goddesses in the Cults book.

I write as a provocation from what I imagine to be a Hsunchen perspective, because I think we read too much about the perspective of the colonial and imperialist cultures in Glorantha, and I think that distorts our perception of the world. As far as where these ideas are from: the Hsunchen view that agriculture is taboo; that domestication of beasts is slavery; and that priesthoods diminish freedom - these are all set out in official published Gloranthan material, mostly fairly explicitly. And the view that agriculture came IRL at a great cost (except to monarchs and priests) is, I think, fairly uncontroversial. There's nothing in Gloranthan lore to indicate it would differ. Magic may help the crops grow, but it doesn't substantially reduce the labour needed for the harvest.

Agriculture as a marker of difference is baked into Glorantha through the ongoing survival of people for whom agriculture is taboo: the Hsunchen shapechangers. This dramatises the idea that agriculture was a much a curse as a blessing. It was the enabler of priests, and obeisance to divinity. It drastically lowered the quality of life for almost everyone. And it resulted in the ascendance of deities (in Glorantha, the Grain Goddesses, and the Herd Mothers) which legitimise the domestication or subjugation of otherwise free-living beasts (and so, inevitably, of otherwise free-living peoples). Agriculture represents the fall from paradise, and so long as Glorantha includes free-living indigenes like the Hsunchen, this is a "live" trope that can be addressed within the game. For more on this, see The Children of Hykim (plus jokes, new spells, lots of weirdness and more): http://tiny.cc/TCoH

My other tip would be to look on the maps for the wild places and speculate what might be there. Away from Dragon Pass, the Hsunchen mostly live in forests and often share territory with elves. Is Tarndisi's Grove too small to accommodate a tiny clan of Opossum Folk, free from their traditional elk-folk enemies? And the forests over near Muse Roost could hide all sorts. Even in the real world there remain an estimated 100+ tribes of uncontacted indigenous peoples. Glorantha may have far more waiting to be discovered.

I think the answer depends how canonical you want your Glorantha to be. I've included the Puma People as one group who are sufficiently divorced from location specifics that they can appear anywhere. To bring others into Dragon Pass would require some willingness to depart creatively from canon. Some thoughts: There's a place in Sartar (Elkenvale) where the local clan consider themselves kin to the elk. Evidently descendants of Pralori, and a possible story hook to either bring in their Pralori cousins or to trigger a trek to Pralorela. Sartarites more generally are descended from Heortlings, who in one of the Stafford Library books included people who could take deer form. Evidently descendants of the Damali. The Odaylans and Yinkini are fairly transparently the semi-civilised heirs of the Rathori and Rinkoni. I can imagine any of these having their ancestral magics reawakened by either a visit to Beast Valley, or by the events of the Dragonrise, or simply by "mysterious dreams". Some of these, and other ideas, are mentioned in the book - but yes, the Hsunchen are not an obvious presence in Dragon Pass and the Telmori (chaotic curse) and Basmoli (no lion companions) are anomalous amongst the Hsunchen.

I'm guessing that was the "Spirit Moss" from RQ2 Trollpak, which caused Discorporation if properly brewed. And if refined further, it "creates effects only pertinent in the forthcoming HeroQuest game".

In the current base rules, "an effect not unlike Discorporation", which begs the question what's the difference. Given its availability (and addictiveness), I think it's reasonable to assume it opens the door and lets you step just through the threshold, but doesn't get you very far on its own, otherwise the Spirit World would be an interesting place wherever Hazia addiction is common :-). I see the Glorantha Bestiary is a bit bolder: "the same effect as a Discorporation spell but lasting for 1D6 hours". I still hope it doesn't just leave the otherworld peopled with stoners wandering around aimlessly :-).

I'm copying this to a new thread in case others want to comment, without clogging up the Q&A thread. I asked: @Scotty replied: My interest was originally sparked by trying to understand animist Heroquesting when writing The Children of Hykim for the Jonstown Compendium. The thread linked above by Scotty was very helpful in understanding what a simple animist Heroquest could look like, as was this thread: In The Children of Hykim, I included the following advice on how to "get around" the rules-as-written constraint that Discorporation (whether the shamanic ability or the Rune spell) can only affect its user, not others: Some further options were given in the book's specific chapter on "Hsunchen Heroquests". I think the right solution depends on whether in any game it's desirable for group Discorporation to be a regular occurrence. Are the ordinary folk in the animist culture isolated from the spirit world, except perhaps at Sacred Time, or can they participate more regularly in spirit travel? Anyway, all shared here in case others have their own views, or want to find this in the future other than via the rules Q&A.

Link: https://www.facebook.com/ChaosiumInc/posts/448047843999474

What time zones are you in?

A review or rating would always be appreciated. Alternatively, are you happy if I quote the above on any future publicity?

Please do add a review and/or rating! 🙂 It took me some time to "wake up" to the effects of the Rathori sleep in Fronela, and it just got more interesting once I worked out how long ago most of the Rathori alive in 1625 must have been born. Some of that came from thinking about writing a "family history" section for character creation - that never made it into the book, though, too much work given how many tribes there are. One puzzle that remains is what happens with all the other Rathorelan tribes during the same period. They don't all have totemic animals that hibernate. Did they expand into Rathori territory? I've touched on that (suggesting a reason why the White Bear became vulnerable to Harrek), but not tried to explain too much.

To celebrate recently reaching Copper Best Seller status, I have added bonus art content, a 13-page PDF containing the text used during art commissioning, sketches from the art development, and two of the larger illustrations at larger size so you can really appreciate the glorious detail from Kristi Jones! The bonus content is available immediately to all previous and new purchasers. If you have already bought and enjoyed the book - please consider leaving a star-rating and/or a review, it really makes a difference and helps the title succeed. http://tiny.cc/TCoH

Thanks for Evan. For any further typos, feel free to pop them in a DM. I've fixed a few in the v1.1 file, and I'll fix any more when v1.2 is provided.

Good spot! They are mentioned in a source that I think has never been officially published. I put them in, and then took them back out; I must have missed that reference, I'll remove it in v1.1. And thanks for the kind words 🙂

I have just published this book on Jonstown Compendium. 159 pages and just over 100,000 words on the Hsunchen totem animal peoples of Glorantha. Priced at $16.99. This book is aimed at anyone who is interested in the Hsunchen. The Hsunchen inhabit the fringes of Gloranthan geography and include some of the most peculiar and fascinating peoples in this world. Because they mostly live far away from mainstream society they are often obscure and poorly documented, and perhaps rarely encountered in many RuneQuest games. Twenty-one Hsunchen tribes living in the western and central parts of the continent of Genertela are described across the space of 158 pages, alongside extensive information regarding their culture, myth, technology, magic and more. The book explains how to create a Hsunchen adventurer, gives tips on using them as adventurers or as non-player characters, ideas for high-level campaigns, and even information on Hsunchen Heroquesting! Appendices provide the author's notes, answers to Hsunchen Q&A, a spells index, Hsunchen mega-list and more. The tribes included are (in order of appearance): skunk, black owl, mammoth, badger, raccoon, bear, bobcat, wolverine, reindeer, yellow quill porcupine, moose, mountain goat, fallow deer, giant beaver, horse*, wolf, opossum, boar, elk, lion and puma*. (*sure, debate if you want!). I am hugely grateful to @Diana Probst, Kristi Jones, Robert Meyer and @M Helsdon for their art, and to various others on this forum and elsewhere who provided input or simply pointed me in the right direction. And of course to the Chaosium team for creating these opportunities for community authors and artists. If you have any comments or corrections, feel free to send me a private message via this forum. http://tiny.cc/TCoH

Thanks David, that ticks all the boxes for me.