Brian Duguid

Telmor would be the other cult in the Bestiary of interest to this, as it has shamans who are also Priests; although I guess theoretically you could have an Aldryami shaman who also qualified as a Wood Lord so would have both a fetch in the spirit plane and also an allied spirit in their elf bow. Personally, I'm taking the view that Hsunchen shaman-priests *don't* get Allied Spirits, but that's essentially a house rule as these are (relatively) minor cults and shamanhood is powerful enough in those communities without matching the power level of a great deity like Kyger Litor. Official clarification on that point would be welcome.

If you can edit your first post, there's an "eye" icon in the post editing toolbar which allows you hide text containing any spoilers for the scenario. Edit: oops, saw you had it in the topic title, didn't see that when following a link to get here though.

Wow, that is superb!

I think a lot of this just hangs in what "rules" means. The big KL isn't a Queen sitting on a throne directing underlings. What she wants is defined through her cult - it literally tells her people how to behave. If they need more detail, the cult hierarchy is there to provide it.

I'll bite on this one. Think of Glorantha as like an atom. It is made up of protons, neutrons and electrons. And maybe there are also mesons, photons or muons floating around. Some of those sub-atomic composite particles are in turn made up of elementary particles such as quarks (six kinds), leptons (also six kinds), gauge bosons (twelve), and the Higgs boson. Some of those, like the gauge bosons can be thought of as forces which determine how other particles interact, like the gluon which binds quarks together. We have information about the various components of the atom, and the rules by which they interact, and also some understanding of how they can be perceived differently by observers (wave-particle duality), and how observation of one aspect renders other aspects obscure (Heisenberg's uncertainty principle). Godtime *is* the underlying reality and structure of the Gloranthan universe: everything which is in the mundane world is there because it is underlain by the Godtime. Just as electrons bind to protons, Yelm fights with Orlanth. Both describe or define fundamental "laws" of the universe. Both just exist, wished-into place, hanging together coherently. But I can only describe them to you by stringing words together, one after another, in sequence. And it would help you enormously if I can describe characteristics of (for example) the muon neutrino - it's size, shape, how it interacts with other particles. Just as it may help you to have Yelm described, and his interactions described through stories, the key medium of communication in a pre-literate society. I'm *not*, to be clear, suggesting that Glorantha works in a mechanistic way i.e. myth can be reduced to the interaction of elementary Runes. I'm just searching for a metaphor as to how we explain a reality that is ultimately imperceptible within the limitations of ourselves trapped within Time: visually and verbally. So did Godtime actually happen simultaneously, because there was no Time? It doesn't matter: we can't describe it that way and make sense of it, because Gloranthans live within Time and (apart from Mystics and Dragons, maybe) have no way to deal with the Godtime other than to experience it sequentially - because everything in their experience is sequential. Does any of that help? All IMO, obviously.

Snake Hsunchen were one of several tribes of reptile Hsunchen mentioned in the Broken Council Guidebook, along with the lizard people, wyvern people, crocodile people, turtle people, and chameleon people. The Guide to Glorantha has canonical snake Hsunchen in Errinoru, in Pamaltela, the Yaquma Anaconda people (page 544). Revealed Mythologies has the Adder and the Anaconda as two of the sixteen Fiwan, or Old People, the original "Hsunchen" of Pamaltelan mythology (page 43). None of these are likely to be chaotic, of course.

This is a thread that really begs for others to add here their own "weirdest things". I vote for the Sedrali, half-human half-greyhound people, whose females have dog bodies with human heads, and whose males have human bodies with dog heads. Quite how the Sedrali reproduce is a mystery, and it really should remain so, please. The Siwafu Army Ant people of the Errinoru Jungle are also pretty weird, "who can transform themselves into hundreds of thousands of flesh-eating ants".

Yes, assimilation was more common amongst First Age Hsunchen peoples than being wiped out. Although other bull-people(s) existed, we are told that the gods of the defeated Tawari were bound into the Bull Gate in Valsburg. GtG has the Tawari as "forced out of" their land; but also has the Eleven Beasts Alliance as "virtually exterminated". I have in my notes that "none of the Tawari remained alive", but checking back now I can't find a source that goes quite that far, so my vivid imagination may have been at work! Either way, the destruction of the Tawari fits the normal legal definition of genocide, which includes the concept of cultural genocide; destruction of a group's culture through spiritual and cultural destruction. Imprisoning their very gods fit with that, and I'm using the term in a polemical sense anyway, to emphasise the victim status of the Hsunchen (including the Telmori) when confronted with other Gloranthan civilizations. Getting more than a little off-topic 🙂

Canonically, I think all the Hsunchen are described as human, albeit "born with minor differences from other humans" (GtG). There's a snippet of lore that appeared in Tales of the Reaching Moon #9 which reports a Brithini view that they were descendants from the "only true humans on Glorantha", and that almost all others were referred to as "animal-men", who had been taught to assume human form by, who else, the Brithini. There is a related division in Pamaltelan lore between the Old People (the Fiwan, a.k.a. Hsunchen), the "made" people like the Agi/mori, and other humans like the Artmali. There's a positive spin, which is that the Hsunchen are the only humans who recognise they have an evolutionary origin, knowing that they **are** animals, while others are rightly or wrongly arguing that they are special / superior. The negative spin is that the Hsunchen are consciously dehumanised by others, along with anyone who may have that in their ancestry. Several Hsunchen tribes, like the Tawari bull-people, appear to have been the victims of genocide. So I think that's all fine as a story element, just as is the racist treatment of the Telmori in Sartar. But I think it's best to stay conscious of it, especially when it's repeated in game material. And having the non-Chaotic Telmori also present in Sartar, as @Ludovic aka Lordabdul suggests, is one way to do that, because it disrupts the normal narrative and adds complexity.

Well, there's an argument that following Odayla is not so much a choice but a calling i.e. the only people who'd join already have bear blood in them, and that's what attracts them to the cult. I would be careful with the terminology: the Hsunchen are still human. To say otherwise has dangerous overtones. It's just that they understand that they are also animals, and unlike most humans, they are able to contact / awaken / embody their animal "self". This is how to account for the occasional lion cub births amongst Western human communities; perhaps some of the relationships of the Martial Beast Societies to their martial beasts; and also the aspirations of the Ancient Beast Society to reawaken their beast selves. Also note that Hsunchen can become non-Hsunchen, by practising non-Hsunchen magic, as has happened throughout Gloranthan history when various beast-folk have adopted foreign gods and assimilated into a broader culture. It would not be right to say that when they do so they "become human", just that they lose access to their animal totem.

Anders Tonnberg's map is here: https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/376267/Dorastor-Map?affiliate_id=1107865 Dorastor also features on one of Mikael Mansen's maps: https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/390900/Talastar--Glorantha-area-maps?affiliate_id=1107865

Ah, I see from Dorastor: land of Doom that the Pure Ones never followed Nysalor so would have neither the invulnerability nor the involuntary shape-change. I'd be strongly inclined to make an adoptee a Pure One, partly because of the interesting opportunities for storyline that it creates.

Adoption into any Hsunchen tribe is theoretically possible. See Heroes magazine #4 which had the long RQ3 Hykim & Mikyh write-up: Individual Hsunchen peoples will have more specific requirements than this, that's a generic template. Expect to have to perform some "great deeds" for the tribe as a starting point - adoption is not a casual thing. The usual rule of sacrificing one POW for a Rune Point would apply. I would rule that the successful adoptee awakens an animal soul during the rites and fully or partially changes form; therefore their first Rune magic must be one of the Transform spells. Specifically for Telmor, the successful candidate may / should acquire their wolf companion during the process. There is more in the forthcoming Cults book, but I don't have permission to share and I'm not sure how much was in the convention previews. I would personally rule that an adoptee into the Telmori tribe will not acquire the curse of weekly transformation - but what about Nysalor's blessing? Did the Pure Ones acquire the invulnerability to normal weapons from Nysalor, or did they dodge the blessing as well as Talor's curse? My reading of GtG page 397 is that they have neither of these, as it says they are "similar to other Hsunchen".

I'm still an explicit "no" on some of this. The Book of Heortling Mythology is deeply unreliable, but is clear that: "She is the mother and protector of all wild things, animals, and spirits of Dragon Pass. She is present in the primeval forests, hidden groves and valleys, streams and caves of Kerofinela." (My emphases). I have no problem with that being a Heortling perspective, and note the relationship to Orogeria. But she's not, for example, a Hsunchen entity, I can't see any obvious analogue in the Korgatsu spirit tradition; she has no obvious analogue amongst the pantheons of the First Age Enerali; nor amongt the animal nomads. Her whole shtick is the lady of the "wild", which is only sensibly a meaningful term to the agricultural and urban societies. It comes directly from their sense of alienation from unspoilt nature, their having fallen from Eden / the Golden Age / etc. The people and beasts who actually live in what others call the "wilderness" just call it "home"; it's not an alien environment, and many primitive societies (IRL and I'm sure in Glorantha) don't see a clear dichotomy between themselves and nature. Especially the Hsunchen, who are deeply embedded in their environment and may not see themselves as separate from it, given their recognition that they are indeed animals. So sure: I can see Velhara in many "wildernesses", but an entity who only really exists as a necessary reflection of civilised cultures. IMG there must be "wild" territories where she has no role.

Maybe post it on the JC Creators group? I think if a couple of people were happy to coordinate it, there'd be no shortage of writers; obviously issues with royalties if there are too many but I'd cheerfully write a page for Hykim/Mikyh for free. Only 96 main cults to cover, of course 😉.

Very specifically a deity related to how "civilised" people encounter the wilderness; I think she's entirely unknown to the animist peoples of the wilds, like the Hsunchen, who have no such need to personify "wildness".

Re: editorial changes, it would be a shame to lose your commentary on the latest FB posts, it's always helpful. Could you: post commentary here rather than in the newsletter? It may be more interactive. The newsletter is difficult to comment on in detail in its current format. Or: keep commentary in the newsletter but just include the paragraphs of "Jeff text" that you have specific comments on, and leave the rest to be read through a link to WoD. The problem is that people may not wish to follow links, especially if viewing the newsletter on a phone.

Minor correction on the Cults of Glorantha description, from Jeff on Facebook: "96 distinct cults plus another 40 or so minor cults" i.e. not 100 long-form cults. Also the Dragon Pass Gazetteer may or may not be called the Dragon Pass Atlas. Also coming soon: Chaosium Classics Volume 1: The Stafford House Campaign, 84-page softcover, probably POD. And of course the Meints Index to Glorantha III, 264-page hardcover.

Sadly, a quick play with a trend line in Excel shows that we can't expect to need the 800-page two-volume Guide to MIG until 2100.

When I first saw it I thought it might be a hardback with a dustjacket :-). I'm assuming not but I hope the binding doesn't fall apart like my old copy of MIG II 🙂 Is there anything else that can be shared about it right now, even just a tiny little teaser?

I note it's much cheaper than the other version. Is there a particular reason why this is the only one in the Stafford Library that's available in two editions on Lulu? I imagine purchasers of the current version aren't missing any content; but I am intrigued as to why there are two versions still for sale.

Getting a bit off-topic, but perhaps the Mostali see it like this: God Time = the God World in development mode; a set of conflicting, overlapping, and related narratives that were generally frozen before release to the public at the Dawn. God World = the public release version of the God World, which exists alongside the Mundane World and drives much of how the visible world works: it is the operating system, or the modules of the operating system that sit intelligibly above the low-level code of the Essential World. It is dynamic in the sense that it is constantly driving things that happen during Time, even if some subroutines (like the Red Moon) were initially disconnected and only enabled at a later date. Generally minor tweaks to the God World can be made from within Time, major changes to this part of the OS are dangerous as they may destabilise the system more widely (cf. God Learners, or Argrath). Hero Plane = a user-friendly UI allowing access to the God World from the Mundane World from within Time. Because people exist within Time, the Hero Plane(s) view the God World in a semi-structured manner: different modules are associated with the Green Age, Golden Age, Storm Age etc; this allows access to the revision history of the development code, not just the version currently operating. Early revisions are known to be pretty flaky, and wise heroquesters avoid them. Note that to interface between the structured, sequential world of Time, and the poorly-annotated and often contradictory code of the Hero Plane Ages is challenging, and the UI must be generated dynamically. This is why heroquesters often encounter different versions of the same myth. Why gods are experienced differently by different peoples in different places = they interface with the underlying God World through UIs tailored to their individual cult, culture, time and circumstances. The UI constrains what they encounter. The Praxian UI for Orlanth only has the modules that culture considers relevant; but by constraining their "window" into Orlanth, they will miss out on seeing many things, but may also bring other aspects into focus that are perhaps not readily apparent elsewhere. To be 100% clear: I am not suggesting this is how Glorantha works. That would be crazy. I am suggesting it is one way for a modern, linear, analytical mind to relate to what is going on beneath the hood (sorry, mixing metaphors).

Everything that Chaosium sell in POD for RQ/Glorantha is also currently available in PDF, so I think there's no reason to expect differently for this. The only exception I'm aware of is an older version of Arcane Lore that someone has forgotten to remove from the Lulu site.

To take the Earth goddesses: one standard genealogy is that Eiritha is a daughter of Ernalda with Hykim. Some Gloranthan books describe an alternative Herd Mother in Esrolia, Uralda the Cow Mother, a daughter of Esrola, their local land goddess. Uralda is also mentioned in Sartar. I would acknowledge that they are clearly different faces of the same entity, but worshipped in a very different way. This thread is relevant to that point: Eiritha seems to be the primary Earth goddess in Prax, and mainly so because she is the source of fertility in both the land and the beasts. The local earth deity, Genert, is long dead. The herd animals are a gift of the earth to the Praxian tribes. I don't think Ernalda has anything more than a background presence in Prax. In Esrolia, Eiritha or Uralda will not be the all-encompassing earth deity favoured by women, but a minor deity probably mainly considered as part of the rituals of farmers. Herds are static rather than nomadic, and when people want to sacrifice for the bounty of the earth it might instead be to Esrola. And one aspect of the above thread that I absolutely don't buy is that they are just different names for the same thing. There should be a big difference (IMO) between how people see a fully domesticated herd animal, and how they see herd beasts who are the losing partners in Waha's Survival Covenant. The Earth deities have often been portrayed as "splitters": lots of goddesses who are sometimes seen as independent, and sometimes as aspects of a greater being (Ernalda). I think this means they are more likely to be encountered through these very different facets in different lands, compared to some of the other deities. This is also related to the history of individual cultures: the Orlanthi culture of Sartar and Heortland is home to key temples and sacred sites. You would have to go well outside Dragon Pass to find very different interpretations of Orlanth. The earth goddesses are different: the temple at the Paps has an independent life from the temples in Esrolia, and its focus is driven by the needs of a totally different culture.

Beer With Teeth have a couple of write-ups of running this adventure, courtesy of @Diana Probst, which may be worth a read. Not tips directly, but some clues as to how a group may deal with the scenario: https://beer-with-teeth.games/starter-set-adventure-iia/ https://beer-with-teeth.games/starter-adventure-iib/