svensson

I think is might be a valid rules question to @Scotty: What is the extent of the transformation when a spell caster uses Transform Self? - Does the caster lose their intelligence? - Do the caster's senses change into the 'semi-divine animal's'? - Can they cast spells while in animal form? - Do they count as 'were-animals' for damage? - How is skill use [Dodge and Parry primarily] effected?

Well, let's not forget the one unmentioned spell in Red Book of Magic that serves to make many of these spells VERY useful... Transform Self: 2 Rune Points, Beast Rune Touch, Duration [Special], Nonstackable Definition: This spell must be stacked with the three specialty shapechanging spells. For example, an Odayla cultist used Bear's Skin, Bear's Strength, and Claws. When these spells are combined with Transform Self, the user bodily transforms into a magical, semi-divine version of the god's animal. All the spells combine for full effect for one full hour. All the normal abilities of the animal become usable by the target for the spell's duration. Now, that's a whopping 9 Rune Points[!], so this is out of range of most casual cultists. But it could be devastating to an opponent who is unfortunate enough to find themselves in melee with the Odayla priest.

These modules are long out of print, from an earlier rules edition that doesn't always mesh well with the current one, and are not likely to be played as-is by current RQG refs. Secondly, nothing ever written in gaming has ever survived contact with a referee, much less player characters. Thirdly, all you have to do is 'flip the script' and make the origin of the antagonists Kralorela or the Vulture Country. Lastly, IF Gim-Gim has been compromised [and nothing says outright that he is, it's just rumors], just exactly what are PC's gonna do about it? Trying to out him would bring down the wrath of the entire Lunar power structure in Prax on them, both overt and covert. They'd spend the rest of their lives dodging Spoken Word and Lanbril agents. And it's entirely up to the referee whether it's true or not anyway.

So, I'm looking at some of my real-world experiences along with some apocryphal evidence in previous editions for my opinions here. Your Mileage and Glorantha May Vary. 1. In several sources and multiple editions, Gim-Gim the Grim is obliquely referred to as a secret Krarshti. It wasn't out-and-out said, but what is definite is that he has reliable connections with the cult. 2. In Sun County, the 'Rabbit Hat Farm' scenario talks about the Krarshti Polybius as being 'a Lunar from the Heartland'. 3. In Shadows on the Borderlands, Thanatari High Priest Drueke's biography has him originating in Carmania and going to another temple in Peloria before landing in Dyskund Caverns. 4. In my real-world experiences, I'm aware of several instances in Central and South America where police, military officers, elected officials and bureaucrats were members in good standing of terrorist groups, narco cartels, and revolutionary movements... and did their duties to BOTH their masters diligently and well. All this leads me to believe that the Lunar Empire is infiltrated to a fare-thee-well by both Krarsht and Thanatar. Krarsht seems to have a very comfortable arrangement with the Lunar intelligence services, especially the Spoken Word, and I wouldn't be at all surprised to find out that there is some Illuminated Thanatari in the Lunar College of Magic that has access to more heads than even Drueke does.

Well hunters start with very poor armor, so anything that adds to their survivability is a Good Thing. What's more, in most parties the hunter is the 'sneaky guy' [cuz, duh] so adding physical armors that decrease his Move Silently isn't optimal. Most players try and balance the two... enough armor to prevent an instant-kill by an unaugmented weapon but not enough to severely impede his work. By removing his armor and casting Bear's Skin, it usually results in a net gain in AP and the penalty for SIZ vs armor tends to remain the same. So I can see the utility of Bear's Skin. It's Claws that I have an iffy time with. All the spells does is raise a caster's Fist attack to 1d6+db and grant +50% Climb. Since the Claws attack uses the caster's Fist attack score, I submit that it's just not that big a deal as a combat option. My reasons are these: 1. Most hunters carry a weapon that does at least 1d8+1+db, if not more. 2. The potential for two attacks in a round is limited... unless the caster has extraordinary SIZ and DEX, he probably won't get that second attack in. A fist attack happens, on average, at SR 7 or 8. If it's at SR 8, then the second attack doesn't have time to happen in the round. 3. As to the climb bonus, you can get similar [though not as great] results if you just cast the spirit magic spell Coordination. This saves you from having to 'burn' a Rune Point you might need for later.

I perceive Odaylans as being the 'mountain-men' of Orlanthi society. They belong to the clan and are just as loyal to it as any other carl, but don't like large groups of people. They especially dislike human politics and petty feuds they think are trivial. They are a more 'primal' Oranthi type, solitary in nature, closer to nature, and they know every square inch of the tula... every hilltop and gully, every water source, every road, track, game trail, and rabbit run. I think that it wouldn't break the system to give Odayla worshipers Surshot and Draw Beast as Rune spells, in addition to their Transform spells. It seems to me that these fit their role in society.

I agree with @Squaredeal Sten in that one man's elemental or helpful spirit is another man's demon. Dehori and Lunes look very different to people not in their respective pantheons, especially when they're order to attack. I don't have any problem with any 'demon' being manifested by almost any Rune association. I think that a Harmony demon would be rather pointless as an adversary, but several other Runes could generate some VERY interesting demon types. A Fertility Demon could be a nasty piece of work as it tries to turn your party of adventurers into nutritious mulch, for example. I would imagine that a Beast 'demon' would be a significantly up-rated minotaur or minotaur-centaur chimera [body of a bull, with minotaur torso, head, and arms]. As to your specific question regarding demon statistics: Checking the RQG Bestiary on pg. 168, the table says that CON 'Depends on POW', ergo POW = CON. The text further states that HP and AP are equal to the demon's Magic Points... the most spirit magic it casts, the easier it is to physically defeat.

@Darius West I think you're misunderstanding the point of HQs. At their very core, HQs make the impossible possible... though at great risk and cost. Consider the case of Hofstaring Treeleaper from the HQ game's Sartar Kingdom of Heroes book. It took very powerful magic to defeat him and imprison the soul of an Orlanthi Hero in a Hell not his own, knowing that you were going to have to contest with Orlanth's deep interest in a Hero of his cult. That deed alone might possibly have been an HQ on the part of the Lunars. OTOH, Hofstaring may well have been a 'Queen Leika level' personality... a successful HeroQuester, but one that isn't in the Argrath /Harrek /Jar-Eel tier. What we are sure of is that it took a successful HeroQuest to release his soul for durance vile. And while that quest happened under a different set of game mechanics, the event only happened a few years ago in the game timeline. Then there is Sarostip Prince-Killer, who killed the Lunar puppet Prince of Sartar by moving an entire raiding band through the HeroPlane safely and arrive inside all the defenses that the Temertain [who may have been foolish, but was not stupid] and the Lunars could devise. He was then able to kill the Prince, his entire retinue and most of the Sartar Royal Guard [who are all werewolves]. I submit to you that these deeds would have been utterly impossible using the 'rules' and physics of the Mundane Plane. HeroQuesting, with its great risks, was the only way either deed could have been accomplished. And all that is a whole lot more important than 'Grandfather Racoon's skin'.

For some reason there are people on this thread that seem to think that 'hunter god/ess' seems to mean 'no technology this side of Clan of the Cave Bear', and that simply isn't so. Hunting and hunting gods use ALL technologies and applicable magics to bring the protein to the people. Sure, it's snares for small game and pit traps for migrating herds but ALL missile weapons... everything from javelins to crossbows [OK, so darts are under-kill and arbalests... well, that just depends on what you're hunting]... are happily used as another tool to get the job done. Certainly, some societies are more primitive in their technologies than others. These societies will portray the hunter god as throwing spears and driving herds off cliffs. Other societies are far more sophisticated and will show the hunt as using beaters to drive prey into the kill zone for missile users.

Most gods are not making their cults 'as strong as possible'. For one thing, they can't. The Compromise limits them to acts performed in the Godtime. The portfolios they had when Yelm rose again in the sky is all they get. The gods support their cults within the bounds of their portfolios and their reasons for existence. Some support the cults strongly, like Orlanth and Yelm. Some gods with minor portfolios do much MUCH less. The hunter gods are of the latter variety. Where Orlanth deals with every aspect of Heortling life [except those aspects directly attributed to Ernalda], the hunter gods deal with only one aspect of life. And that aspect is pretty small fry compared to, say, Humakt or even Daka Fal.

Odayla doesn't offer any archery Rune spells. I personally think it's because he offers Bear's Head /Skin /Claws. I don't recall seeing any of the Hunter cults that offer the Transform Animal spells and archer Runes spells together, and I think that was probably a deliberate game balance choice by the devs. OTOH, I could be 180 degs off and it's just a typo 😁 I don't think Yinkin is a Draw Beast type. Yinkin is a cat and the act of hunting is as much a pleasure to him as eating he's caught. For that reason, I think his cult prefers the chase rather than mesmerizing their prey. But YGMV.

I've almost done that 😄 I'd be surprised if all of haven't, certainly most of us have.

At that point, if I were that player character I'd be investing a lot of 'filthy Lunars' into Protection and Shield spells. [The OP said there were roleplaying reasons why the PC didn't want Regrow Limb]

Ah... forensic gaming, because no detail is too small for power gaming 🤣😁 [That's not a jab, @Scotty... Every one of us knows 'that guy']

Well, according to RQ Bestiary, black-tailed deer have 1 pt and elk have 2 pts of armor respectively. You make a good point, but Speedart seems to be more commonly available than Multimissile, so that was the example I chose. Your point is well taken otherwise.

Sure, but you have to be able to Track, Move Silently, and Hide at much higher levels to get into range for a javelin. Otherwise, good point.

I tend to disagree with that. In the area where I live, the Native Americans used spears and bows to hunt quite a bit. When taking large game [deer, elk, etc.], it was usually a group effort that took the better part of a day. You wounded the animal and tracked it until it was exhausted and then put it out of its misery [insert Peaceful Cut here, pun intended]. Often several hunters would 'work' the same prey, shooting and tracking the quarry and then everyone in the village would get part of the kill. And this only got more efficient after the introduction of the horse and mounted hunting. What's more, I submit to you that a lucky hit with a composite bow [dmg 1d8+1] backed by Speedart [dmg +3] is a highly efficient way to put meat on the table. A lucky shot on an average RQG deer [Special Success w/ piercing weapon is an Impale result: average dmg 4+1=5 doubled = dmg 10 + Speedart +3 = dmg 13] would drop it in it's tracks. ANY location hit would cripple or instant-kill even a SIZ 26 elk from the RQ Bestiary. Even cutting that down by using a self bow would still get a crippled limb and bleeding wound, thus making the prey easier to track and finish off. So for the expenditure of 1 arrow and 1 Magic Point you've brought home enough meat to feed your family for a week.

If the hand is off at the wrist, I'd say no. If off at the elbow, perhaps reduce the HP by 1 point. Getting a little bit min/max power gamer with it, the HP in the arm are valuable barriers for the chest location.

Oh great... The Great God Hobbes and the Rune Lord are called Calvins... lol!

Well, I mentioned in the top post that Yinkin is a cat. Cats don't use slingshots much 😂 From looking at things, it appears to me that hunter gods don't grant archery spells AND the beast transformation spells. It appears to be one or the other.

A question came up on another thread regarding hunter cults and missile weapon spells. The big question is 'Why do most hunting cults not have missile spells?' I think I can answer that, sort of. These answers make sense to me, but I have no proof of my suppositions one way or the other. Firstly, if you look at the spells provided by all cults over the four major pantheons [Air/Storm, Earth, Fire/Sky, and Lunar] you'll notice that a deliberate effort was made to NOT make all spells available to all pantheons. It's fairly difficult, for example, to get Sun Strike or Mindblast as a Storm cultist, and Lightning is almost unknown amidst the Lunars. It seems obvious that that was intentional by design. Secondly, a lot of hunter cults are focused on an animalistic deity form. Yinkin, for example, isn't anthropomorphic like the Egyptian Bast. Yinkin IS a cat, and therefore does his hunting with claws and teeth. I can see why animal idolizing cults don't have missile spells in that context. But that doesn't explain why humanocentric deities don't have them. With Odayla, his conquest of Sky Bear gives him the three Head, Body, and Limbs of the Beast spells. But I don't think it would break the bank if he got Sureshot as well. Foundchild has all the archery spells you could want, save for Firearrow and Arrow Trance. Yinkin we have already discussed. Anyone else have any thoughts on this?

I agree. In my opinion adding some archery magic to hunting cults would be less of a change or disruption to canon than adding bows to the cult of Humakt. But that's not what we were discussing. But you know, I think I'll start a separate thread on that, now that you mention it.

@Andrew M Well, YGMV, mon frere. I think the subcult idea isn't a bad compromise for your game though. I don't know if it shows up in mine, though. The benefit to a 'Bow-Humakt' subcult is that it gives Storm worshipers in your campaign access to some fairly nice archery Rune Magic [Arrow Trance, etc.] that neither Odayla or Yinkin teach.

So this is kind of weirdo question that occurs to me at 5am.... The cult of Waha limits the Heal spell of initiates and greater to Heal 1. Now, I fully grant you that Heal 1 is better than Heal none, but it won't stop the bleeding on penetrating wound. So it occurs to me to ask: is the limit of Heal 1 an aspect of Waha's dogma or is it an aspect of the Death Rune? To put it another way, are ALL Death Rune worshipers limited to Heal 1 or just Waha worshipers?

We had a great big discussion about Humakt, Yanafal, and the differences thereof and came up with YGMV. Some thought that Humakt and YT were almost Associated cults, so close as to be indistinguishable. I and some others strongly disagreed. There are good reasons in canon for and against each position. Where I personally came down was that Humakt at his core is a Storm god and the Storm pantheon's mortal enemy is the Red Goddess [or 'Scarlet Harlot' as I called her, to some amusement]. YT helped bring Sedenya into Glorantha, thereby upsetting the Compromise, and so AFAIC Humakt and YT are completely separate cults. What does that mean for the Sword Curse? IMG, it means that no straight blade will serve the apostate and that it is only by the intervention of YT that curved blades will serve him. But again, YGWV