svensson

On 3/5/2019 at 11:59 PM, Joerg said:

I think that the main problem with undercover Illuminates is that their low regard for the cultural norms of the people they joined goes both way. They are about as reliable as tricksters (though they aren't Tricksters in the normal sense).

You'd probably need more advanced illuminates to handle them somewhat, but then those more advanced illuminates have utterly different concerns, and why should they bother? Special teaching by the Red Emperor or the Great Sister might be the only thing to motivate them. Or not.

Think of illuminate infiltrators as a cadre of chemtrails devotees sent to investigate the aircraft industry for cartel moves.

To my knowledge, only two Gloranthan societies have actively tried to harness Illumination, maybe three... The First Council's Bright God project that birthed Nysalor, the Jrustelan God Learners [an arguable point.. they may not have been Nysalor Riddlers per se, but their actions were Illuminated in practice], and the Lunar Colleges. You see how well each one of those societies prospered for their temerity.

With all that being said, I see Illumination as something kept very secret; something only shared between one believer to another on an individual basis. They may network among themselves, but they don't organize. There are few if any 'Illumination clubhouses'. I would think that most of the smart Illuminates [or at least the cautious ones] operate like King Oddi of the Bilini. Oddi may understand that Order and Chaos are two sides of the same coin, he might understand that neither can exist without the other. But he is also aware of his position and duty as king of his people. If a fellow Illuminate were to contact him, he would judge that Illuminate solely on the effect that person has on his people. And if that means that he personally orders that Illuminate executed, he will without a second thought.

12 minutes ago, Jeff said:

The Gorgorma cult is officially tolerated by the Lunar Empire, although it is usually discouraged and quietly suppressed by local rulers. It has some very powerful protectors within the Lunar Empire, so those local rulers need to tread very carefully.

She is much like Babeester Gor and Maran Gor that way. The Earth will have it's due, in blood, in silver, and in POW sacrificed from *everyone*. To do ought else invites utter ruination. Prior to the Dragonrise, no other cult or society could match the power of the Earth Mothers when angered... Certainly not the Red Goddess, and the Storm Gods didn't even try. Even the Malkioni's Invisible God knows better than to place his dogma in direct opposition to Ernalda. It is unknown whether or nor Argrath has any kind of control or influence over Dragons... just waking one up was Heroic enough... but he will not risk angering Samastina, Clearwine, the Paps or any other large collections of Earth power. He knows better than that.

Just now, Kloster said:

Not really. You could mount the (RQ2) untrained but had to roll for riding every round just to stay on your mount. As far as I understand, you can't even ride the (RQG) meat category.

Unless you have sufficient Ride skill to break [or train] a mount to the saddle [Ride 50 in RQG], all you can do with an untrained mount is hang on and hope for the best. I would presume that a 'meat' animal is either too old, lame, or sickly to take a rider and that those animals too stubborn to take a rider [and my horsey friends tell me these bad boys do indeed exist] would actually be valued, especially in nomad society, for their potential as Allied Spirit hosts.

1 hour ago, Byll said:

I've always assumed that anything re-constituted or inaugurated within time inevitably contains a trace of chaos. it's just a case of how obvious / potent the chaos is. Presumably the Mostali would disagree.

I'm not so sure about that, given how often in a year Resurrection is used across Glorantha. Because the 7 Mofos were reassembling a spirit shattered [but not dead] in the God Time, I have to presume that Sedenya existed in some scattered form within the Compromise and was therefore subject to it.

5 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

(and pays the stable hand to cut all the others' saddles)

Cheers

Bloody cheaters!

[casts Glue 5 on horse's back right hoof....]

5 hours ago, Kloster said:

RQG has only riding, cavalry and war-trained, with same description than RQ2. The fourth category is labeled 'meat'.

Which would be 'untrained' right?

I'm reminded of that line in the old John Wayne movie 'The Cowboys'....

Youngster: "Nice horse. What's his name?"

Old Cowboy: "You never name something you might have to eat, kid...."

That is part of what I'm getting at.

Could it be that the errors made in the reassembly of Sedenya's spirit and it's rebirth at Teelo Estara have made the resulting being less potent than she needed to be to ascend to Goddess-hood? Would this less than optimal result have required the new being to resort to Illumination and/or the Chaos taint in order to gather sufficient power to challenge the Compromise?

1 hour ago, Jeff said:

I'd suggest that it was only partially successful from DX's initial goals. The new book gives a ton of insight into each of the Seven Mothers. 

And is worth keeping in mind that none of the Seven Mothers are directly tainted by Chaos. 

The Red Goddess on the other hand.....

That's kind of my point.

I don't think that any of the 7 Mofos intended to resort to Chaos, but that DX's 'almost-failure' [remember, 'partial success' also means 'almost failure' ] required an infusion of power tainted by Chaos for the Red Goddess' apotheosis to successfully happen. In this way they doomed the Empire to eventual defeat. The single greatest charge against the Empire [after its conquering nature] is that it is tainted by and accepting of Chaos.

As for the Red Goddess' taint, yes, in order to harness Chaos she needed to take Chaos into herself. Therefore she is tainted. It is worth discussing whether she was Illuminated before she became tainted as a mortal or that her apotheosis granted her Illuminated insights that allows her contain the Chaos within her in a controlled form.

As for IO, I wouldn't be surprised to find out that he was an Illuminate whose lack of morals and ethics tainted the Sedenya's Quest. I don't mean to imply that all Illuminates are depraved. King Oddi of the Bilini certainly isn't. But it is a legitimate discussion within theological and philosophical circles here on Terra Prime as whether or not 'relative morality' can to rationalized depravity. How many people in history have been led to evil because they felt that their acts were for the 'greater good', after all?

13 hours ago, The God Learner said:

** Four planners because Danfive Xaron and Teelo Norri appear to have mainly been tools and Yanafal Tarnis was muscle. I haven't found a good description of Danfive Xaron's real role during the RG quest(s) yet. 

Danfive was volunteered to attempt the most dangerous part of Sendenya's Quest, at which he was only partially successful. I have found nowhere where it is explained exactly what that mission /role /whatever was, but it is clear that, while he didn't succeed, he succeeded enough to redeem a life previously given over to evil. In my personal opinion, it was Danfive Xaron's failure that required Sedenya's reformed spirit to use the help of Chaos to complete her apotheosis.

But I admit that I'm probably wrong about that.

Well, you're the boss

It's not like I won't be buying the books after all... lol!

I will say that in a city like Nochet or metropolii of the Lunar Heartland or Ralios, Lanbril ought to thrive. I mean, if a city on the edge of nowhere like Pavis can have three Master Thieves and their gangs all working [out of a population of just 5000], then those areas ought to have a dozen or more in Nochet and at least a couple or three per city in Ralios.

1 hour ago, metcalph said:

Black Fang is specifically a Pavisite deity.  Lanbril may be worshipped in Dragon Pass and the Holy Country but nobody seemingly pays much attention to him there.

1 hour ago, Jeff said:

Both Lanbril and Black Fang are going in the forthcoming Pavis and Big Rubble books. Mythologically both cults are pretty insignificant. Lanbril may have lots of stories about himself, but nobody else bothers to tell stories about him. They are important for understanding Pavis, but not for understanding Glorantha, if that makes any sense.  

Lanbril isn't supposed to be mythically significant. Where Eurmal is  a Trickster god, Lanbril is an out-and-out thief. Eurmal is by and large a rural deity of Storm pantheon who provides a place at Orlanth's table for those who don't fit in anywhere else. Lanbril is the god of organized urban crime for those who are disenfranchised in the larger power structure. Where Eurmal cultists find a role in their society as jesters and dissenters, Lanbril's people are absolute parasites who feed off the work and wealth of the world. And since he doesn't belong to any specific pantheon and has few ritual ties to other cults, he avoids that whole Sun vs. Storm vs. Moon kerfluffle. Therefore, it behooves Lanbril and his cult to have no great mythic deeds nor a huge role in society's ritual life. If a Lanbril Master Thief had his way, nobody would ever know the cult existed. Let others be 'heroes', Lanbril wants to be rich and subtly wield the power that wealth and those underground connections brings him.

As to the spread of Lanbril's cult, wouldn't it be present in the cities of Ralios given that the region is the interface between the Invisible God's influence and the elemental theist pantheons? With all the fighting and internecine strife, it would be a perfect incubator for a god of thieves.

As to Black Fang, I thought the cult was more international than that. It may be that my impression is from the GM in an old campaign I played in.

Quick question regarding Lanbril and Black Fang...

I was under the impression that both of these cults were international but very independent. What I mean by that is that the different cult branches never talked to each other and had no hierarchy beyond the local head priest, but there were cults of both located all over the Genertela... at least from Ralios to Prax anyway. So it would seem to me that including them in the Gods book would be appropriate.

Am I mistaken in all that?

On 3/3/2019 at 2:56 AM, Jeff said:

I am still debating about whether to add Horned Man, Triolina, Subere, Wachaza, and Voria to the list.

It seems to me that Horned Man [the other primary Spirit cult along with Daka Fal], Triolina [the Water life cult], and Wachaza [the Water war cult] ought to be included. Without them, you leave holes in those elemental societal roles. Subere and Voria are pretty minor from an adventurer's point of view; they can be adequately worshiped through Kyger Litor and Aldrya respectively.

Yay! We could use some scenarios at this point.

Just now, Puckohue said:

Yes, but as an example, the RQ:G pregenerated character Vasana rides "a trained cavalry bison". Surely that means war trained?

Another example would be Tusk Riders, where the description in the Glorantha Bestiary says that "Their steeds fight along with them."

In RQ2, or 'Classic RQ', mounts had 4 training standards: untrained, riding, cavalry, and war-trained. An untrained animal was unbroken and would not accept a rider. A riding animal would take a rider, but you'd need to make Ride checks every round in combat or you'd lose control and the mount would hare off on its own whim. A cavalry mount was used to rough feeding, hard trail use, and desensitized to battle. It wouldn't attack, but it's a stable platform to fight from. A war trained mount would attack at the rider's command.

So if it were my table with the pre-gen NPCs, Vasana's bison would be 'cavalry-trained', Harmast's zebras would be riding trained, and Vishi's High Llama would probably be war-trained.

See the character descriptions in RQG and the discussion on mounted combat in RQG pg. 219.

The Byzantines picked up the stirrup from their Blue Turkish opponents about 700AD or so. It's reasonable to presume that it became part of their saddlery at that point.

A boy was fostered into a house as a page at between 6 and 8. He began physical development at that point. He'd begin his horsemanship training at about 10, and begin learning weapons when he was made a squire at about 12 with hunting weapons [bows, spear, dagger] and 14-15 for knightly weapons. The Egyptian mamluks had a similar training regimen.

25 minutes ago, Puckohue said:

Do you allow a (Lance) charge AND a butt attack?

Good question.

With a mount trained to fight [a warhorse or destrier for example], yes. For a riding or cavalry trained mount, no.

I have a couple of reasons for this ruling:

1. Most quadrupeds have an instinctive urge to bypass an object in their way rather than run through it. This is one reason why mounts require just as much training as their riders do. I'm a Civil War reenactor in the western US and my association has several cavalry units. It takes a minimum of two years for a horse to get onto an active battlefield with musketry going off, sunlight glinting off of metal, the concussive impact of cannon fire on sensitive noses and ears, and spectator noise and motion etc. In many ways, we're actually more careful with horse safety than we are with the safety of people. And if you've ever seen a horse's veterinary bill, you'd know why . Horses are an expensive hobby.

2. Some animals will butt as an attack [bison, sables, and rhinos being the two big examples] in response to a perceived threat, but most of the time this is instinctive. For a mount to direct its attack at the rider's bidding requires war training.

Hey everyone.

One problem that I've run into in trying to convert my DnD friends to d100 is that Glorantha is just too 'early period' for them. They'd much prefer a setting where they can wear heavier armors, where steel is common, and there's an Adventurer's Guild. In short, they want something more DnD-ish. But they're also attracted to my sales pitch about d/100... that there are no 'classes', no classes means you can start as a farmer and end up a high end wizard if the campaign goes on long enough, that the system doesn't tell you 'no', it just applies penalties, that you don't suddenly ding! a level but rather watch your character grow the skills they want to have, etc. etc. etc.

I've dug out my QuestWorld box for the Kanos continent, so I'll be setting it there.

I've even got an idea of a campaign basis that isn't England or Waterdeep or Greyhawk.... I'm going to use a displaced population of Komnenan Byzantines [that's Constantinople in the Crusades era].

But my question to you all is what d100 system should I use?

My issues as GM are these:

--I want cult membership to be a resource for the PCs, but not the all-encompassing subculture that it can become in Glorantha

--I want to keep magic reasonably simple but leave room for the fireball-throwing secular wizard type if that's what a PC wants

--I'm probably going to throw some definite 'you're not in Kansas anymore, Dorothy' elements [for example, no horses or cows, but substitutes they've domesticated since their arrival]

So, anybody got any thoughts about this?

If suggestions are being taken, I have a couple that I think might have some value. These are all some things that have come up in conversations with other fans.

1. How about publishing a Solo Adventure that helps the player through the processes of the rules.... especially the new features and major changes.

2. A Sorcery sourcebook.

3. The main RQG book is naturally focused on the Sartar /Dragon Pass region. Are there plans in the works for similar treatments of other regions [the core of the Lunar Empire, Esrolia, etc.]?

Slightly off-thread, but related...

During playtest I offered a suggestion for a sorcerous cult within the Empire that honored the thief, smuggler and conman. I called it 'The Shadow of the Sun and Moons', and the focus of its magical teachings were to be illusionary and distracting, not combative. The skills taught would be sorcery magic skills along with Devise and Bluff. The point of the cult is robbing from the rich to get rich and take care of your own community's poor without having to resort to charity or the Lunar Way. This was not a cult designed make a worshiper a well-known and widely feared Magus, but rather a wealthy and locally respected member of the underworld. The cult's attitude about the whole Empire was very much 'We may be all us, but you are not mine so piss off'.

Jeff didn't like my group's take on the Sorcery rules [we tried to tie it more tightly to the Runes], and so the idea died before I really got into the details of it.

13 minutes ago, metcalph said:

But that's the Orlanthi themselves, not the Dara Happans/Pelorians.  

I meant that as a reference to how the Storm pantheon provides deities even for Orlanthi outlaws while neither Dara Happan cultures do.

Sorry if I confused.

4 hours ago, womble said:

Longspears or pikes used two-handed while a-horse. There is no functional difference between a Dory, a Sarissa, a Xyston and a medieval combat lance. But the Companions of Alexander and the Achaemenid Persian Kataphraktoi never couched their lances.

By 'couched' I intend to say 'braced their bodies into the saddle using stirrups and held the spear tightly to the body while inducing the mount to full charge'. The number of hands holding it is immaterial to the force delivered on impact. Both the Achmaemenid /Byzantine technique and the Western European technique [pre-1400 or so] were both designed to do the same thing: deliver the weight of the fast moving heavy mount onto the target as efficiently as possible. The one- or two-handed techniques between the two had more to do with mount control [always the single most important thing to any cavalryman] than weapon handling.

And I think another point could be brought out in this... From what I've read, kataphraktoi were trained from their young adult years after they joined that unit of Byzantium's Tagmata, whereas a European knight was trained from the time he was 6 year old. Yes, much of a knight's training had to do with the social aspects of knighthood, but until the Renaissance a knight was first, foremost and always a warrior first and servant of the Crown second. This compares to the strictly military function of a cataphract serving with his thema.

Something else occurs to me as well: I don't know one way or the other, but is controlling the mount while wielding the longer spear of the Byzantine heavy cavalryman easier than the European version?

10 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

The HQ1 era supplements created lots of weird gods that, I believe, really didn't capture the Lunar way and have gone to the list of non-canonical sources. The best source for the Lunar gods currently is in the Glorantha Sourcebook.  And most of those are a veneer or supplement on top of the existing local cultures which are dominated by the Pelorian Earth religion (including Lodril), the Weeder folk of Darjiin and along the Oslir, etc.

Is there a difference between the Glorantha Sourcebook and the Guide to Glorantha two volume set? I glanced at the guide at my FLGS, but upon seeing the same artwork repeated I just assumed I had the information in the larger set.

As for the HQ Lunar Handbook, thank God it was relegated to the 'Um, what?' file. There was a whole bunch of really bizarre stuff in there that made no sense. It seemed like it was written by a committee with no chairman.

8 minutes ago, soltakss said:

Storm Bull is forbidden everywhere in the Lunar Empire, except for Bilini, I believe. Orlanth is forbidden everywhere, but bandits and thieves would worship him. Urain is forbidden, as he is worse than Storm Bull in a very bad mood.

The Spolites have a lot of forbidden Darkness cults, but they have not been described.

Monster Man is a forbidden cult, as it is the Rising Rebellion of the peasants of Dara Happa. The Cult of the Invisible Spear is a Lodril subcult that peasants use to learn spear combat in secret.

Krarsht and Thanatar are very forbidden cults but have their place.

Thief cults are generally forbidden, as are assassin cults. However, the rulers may well call on their services when required.

 

Well, as Labril shows, where thief cults are forbidden, they prosper. And the noble house Dart Competitions would keep an assassin cult going forever, much less the street level merchant wars or 'he knocked up my daughter' murders for hire.

Beyond that, it's hard for an Uroxi to stay hidden in the Empire. Pretty short career path, you know? Unless he wants to be banished to Dorastor or get an all-expenses-paid trip to the Punishment Legions.

Monster Man? Don't know that one.

Good points with Krarsht and Thanatar.

Although I was aware of it, I totally forgot about Invisible Spear. I see that as a resistance cult against the Yelmic high-handedness of the Dara Happans, but it still fits within the bounds of my questions.

1 hour ago, Bohemond said:

Dara Happan thieves worship Veskerele the Faceless Man. 

He's the one I saw referenced in HQ's Lunar Handbook, but who is he? Do you have a reference for him anywhere that tells me something about the cult?