davecake

On 7/25/2023 at 6:40 PM, mfbrandi said:

Duty or slavery? I am tempted to say pick at most one. “Reclaimed”?

The Varama text is describing the Sun myth from a Doraddi POV, the Tenoarpesas entry from a Fonritian.

On 7/26/2023 at 9:48 AM, Squaredeal Sten said:

I imagine that most GMs and scenario writers would like to write scenarios that use Ompalam's cult as the enemy. 

Well, represents Ompalam as an evil, certainly. Fonrit has been described as incorporating elements of both Mali and Melniboné. 

On 7/26/2023 at 9:48 AM, Squaredeal Sten said:

y.  For adventurers from outside Fonrit, they will want to avoid being enslaved.

Or remaining enslaved, having been enslaved involuntarily. While it’s definitely a plot element that would definitely need to be discussed before it’s incorporation, its a classic sword and sorcery trope (eg Conan), albeit one that works notoriously poorly in RPGs.

On 7/26/2023 at 9:48 AM, Squaredeal Sten said:

For adventurers originating in Fonrit - well I don't yet have a good enough vision of Fonrit to generate that.

If you read through the Fonrit sections in the Guide, you’ll find it has some reasonable diversity - there are areas not dominated by Ompalam, and freedom movements, and unique city states, etc. It’s also possible to play characters originating in a wicked society and have their character arc be about their journey to true freedom, etc. Clearly, though, the mainstream of Fonritian society is one that is repellent by modern standards, occasionally very obviously so. 

On 7/26/2023 at 10:16 PM, Scotty said:

In order to prevent us repeating like a broken record, here's a page listing Missing Lands contents and where to find them: Missing Lands content location

While I don’t think this is 100% correct (eg some details from the Doraddi material didn’t make it into the Guide), this is very useful, thanks for doing it. 
I have a copy myself, and I’m glad I do because I have made use of several of the otherwise unavailable parts, but this makes it very clear that there is very little in it that the majority of people will find of much value. The great bulk of it is far better covered in the Guide and the Guide should be used in preference, and it’s pretty much for completionists only. 
If there are any items unavailable elsewhere that people have questions about, I’d be happy to answer them. 

On 7/21/2023 at 4:26 PM, Jeff said:

I am going to be blunt. Finovan and Helemakt are not RQ cults.

On 7/21/2023 at 12:35 PM, davecake said:

There is a bit of a ‘Glorantha non est hoc’ tendency in some RQG material

And I’m not a fan of that tendency. I don’t find ‘the background and mythology is too rich’ to be a compelling problem with Glorantha, that demands pruning like an overgrown garden. 
But FWIW, I do agree that they should not be cults in the sense of independent cults, or full sub-cults. But minor local variations, or myths that are meaningful as HeroQuest paths, or ‘rites’ used at particular times or places, and otherwise have minor game significance? Why not? 

I regard deities like Finovan or Helamakt etc somewhere between Jeff and Darius. Like Jeff, I do not think these any of the huge number of Thunder Brothers are worshipped as independent deities. They are at most sub-cults of Orlanth. As are the very many sub-cults or Orlanth described in the same sources. And like Jef, I agree the major cults described in the book - Thunderous, Adventurous, Rex and Vinga - are the only ones that regularly rise to have dedicated temples or worship ceremonies, and you can play RQG perfectly fine without knowing about any of the others, and for new players it is better to just not have to deal with a range of names that just complicate a setting that already has a reputation as being somewhat overwhelming for new players. 
But like Darius, I think they are worthwhile, part of the richness of Glorantha that makes it such a great setting. And many of us are very far from new players, and are happy to complicate our games a bit more. And they have game uses. They can help distinguish one clan or one character from another, in a society in which the great majority all worship the one deity, and emphasis the richness of Orlanth society. They give us handy hooks to hang stories and myths on, which in turn makes them feel more Gloranthan and more like something from a living culture. There is a bit of a ‘Glorantha non est hoc’ tendency in some RQG material that has sensible goals (to push back against a tendency to overwritten material that over complicates and reduces verisimilitude to anyone familiar with the historical inspirations), but sometimes goes a bit too far, because it removes material that can be inspirational and add to the richness of the setting. 

So I think that it’s fine to keep such material in the game and source material. I’d like to have seen a few more of these minor deities in the Prosopedia (though I’m sure that a few will show up in the Sartar book or the Mythologies book here and there). 
and I think they are great for JC material. But I think cult writeups is going too far, and most don’t even require a sub-cult writeup. Some might be full minor sub-cults, with a spell gained through membership - the several hero cults of Humakt are a great example of how this enriches the game (and yes, I know the Orlanth cult has some of these written up - I’m just saying I don’t think a few more would hurt). But many of the Hero Wars era ones are less than that. Some might just be noted as ‘the source of the X spell’. Some are ‘the source of Orlanth’s friendship with X associated cult’ (and some might add an associated cult just for members of that sub-cult and nothing more). Some might just change the list skills counted as cult skills where they are strong, or cult spirit spells available. Some don’t even represent that - they are just figures that represent the model of Orlanthi behaviour for a subset of Orlanthi society (this is what Orlanthi behaviour for a weaponthane is, this is the name for Orlanth acting as a chief) - and maybe if they grant useful abilities, it is the ones intrinsic to being an Orlanthi in that role or doing that thing, and we don’t need to represent that any more in the game. 
And for detailing myths and heroquests? Honestly, they help a lot. It lets you disguise roles when you have more than one Orlanthi in your group. It lets you write myths about internal division within Orlanthi society. 
So my opinion on these minor figures is more or less let a thousand flowers bloom - but let’s be clear that not every flower should be treated like a potential tree. 

And Heortling Mythology shouldn’t be treated as canon. There is a bunch of stuff in there that is clearly written for specific reasons or with specific elements that aren’t useful any more. I particularly discard anything that is heavily based on the Three Worlds Model, which I find positively unhelpful. But it’s a marvellous source of inspiration, with a lot of Gloranthan gold. If you are looking for ideas for an Orlanthi game, a flick through should give you some excellent mythic ideas. Judge them on their usefulness and current relevance absolutely. But there are quite a few babies in that bath water. Maybe the forthcoming Sartar and Mythology books will have picked out all the good stuff - but I doubt it. And having your own attempt at fitting such ideas into your own context is part of the creative fun of Gloranthan writing, be it for the JC or your own game.
And if some such efforts are ‘doing Glorantha wrong’, well they won’t end up very compatible with Chaosium publications but they might be great in their own way (the ‘Stormspearia’-Glorantha is practically a variant game and variant Glorantha that significantly diverges from the official, and it’s not to my taste for the game I run, but I keep buying it because it’s so damn entertaining, and has lots of useful ideas therein). 

23 hours ago, metcalph said:

Alakoring wears the Iron Crown. 

Yeah, I noticed that too. Given the Iron Crown grants an Orlanth Rex related power, it makes sense. But yes, the Iron Crown stories are a bit of a mess. Presumably such a potent symbol of kingship goes back to the Vingkotlings era, maybe to the Kodigvari, in which case it might have got lost around Saird first somewhere around the Gbaji wars era, revived by the Iron Crown hero (perhaps tying into Redaylda etc as the other source of sovereignty?), lost again, and then recovered by Alakoring as part of his efforts to create the Orlanth Rex cult? Just off the top of my head - but that still doesn’t explain why people hadn’t noticed that Alakoring did this and still thought the crown was in Balazar, so perhaps he did create his own version somehow (but the original would bring more power to someone seeking to be high king of the Orlanthi, and so becomes of great interest in the Argrath era). 
 

23 hours ago, metcalph said:

Artmal no longer has the Fate Rune.  This could be that he's recently been freed

I associated the Fate Rune with Artmal having the power of prophecy, but I think this was something he was only mentioned as doing when imprisoned, so maybe? Or it could just be one of those things that has more to do with game rules and the Fate rune not really fitting into the current rune scheme. 
 

The Beatpot/Prigozhin comparison is funny! 

5 hours ago, MHanretty said:

Gold Wheel Dancers are described as “One of the races of Dragon in the Dawn Age”.

I certainly presumed this just to be an error, due to the dubious grammar. 

There are some very fun ideas in the campaign log, like the Exigers, and the Suckerbunny Tree (someone beg Sandy to find the stats!), and a few ideas that probably don’t fly any more - his material on the hidden civilisation in the swamps not only is very dependent on RQ3 sorcery, but also I think features a demon who has wandered in direct from a Michael Moorcock book (Sreng of the Seven Swords)! Worth a read for Mister Man alone, Sandy’s Pamaltelan Trickster. 

There is a lot of information that Sandy dropped in chunks in the digest back in the day. Interesting things like Slarge magic and purple Slarge metal. 

Sandy mentions a few Pamaltelan things in his various Forgotten Secrets talks turned chapbooks for the Kraken. There is also a Robin Laws adventure set in Pamaltela in that series (about the spawn of the Mother of Monsters).

An old Heroes magazine had a scenario by Sandy, the Big Hit, set in Fonrit. Heroes v1 #6. 

I can almost feel Jeff’s irritation at even mentioning it, but there were some fun ideas in the Mongoose Pamaltela material for minor peoples of Pamaltela, like plant people (not Aldryami). No idea if it was original to those sources (in which case, maybe best forgotten) or from some obscure Chaosium related source. There are a few other bits and pieces in Mongoose material, but mostly what is good isn’t original, and what’s original isn’t good. 

I believe Pamaltela was mentioned in a Hero Wars era document about the Chaos metaplot, but I’ve never read that document. I think about the huge Chaos enclave in the Nathan desert? 

I’ve been very interested in Pamaltela for decades, and have obsessively collected every scrap of info I can find (and written some of my own, which should make it to the JC eventually). Please feel free to ask me about anything I’ve mentioned, or that you’ve heard about. 

The new Prosopedia has a fair bit of good information about Pamaltela, especially Fonrit and the Glorious ones, and the Doraddi. 
Revealed Mythology is still an essential resource, unfinished as it is. The Guide is essential too, obviously. 
The Pamaltela and Oceans book from the Stafford library is out of print, and almost everything in it is completely replaced by the Guide - but it does have a handful of pages about Doraddi myth that isn’t published anywhere else (and a few other such things about other subjects). 
The material by John Holmes I think is unlikely to ever be canonical, and I find is a bit of a clumsy fit with other Doraddi material, but it’s very much worth reading - that’s the original material from TOTRM 11. I use it more for the Fiwan than the Doraddi. Of course that issue also features the Pamalt cult full write up, which is again essential - for a few weeks, until a revised version is published in the Earth Cults book that will make it quite redundant. I think the Earth cults book also features a few lines about how Ernalda and Asrelia present as Faranar and Aleshmara? Likewise when the Fire Sky Cult book comes out, I think it will have information about how Lodril is worshipped as Balumbasta in Pamaltela. 
I think Jeff posted a while back something about Seseine. What we really need for Fonrit is an Ompalam writeup, but while I think a draft official write up may exist, I’ve never seen any details anywhere. 
 

On 7/7/2023 at 2:32 PM, French Desperate WindChild said:

First I will decide what would be the priority:

- axe master (90+ skill, runespells, bladesharp and other spirit spells) or just good fighter (75+ skill, runespells, not figh spirit spells)

-tracker, guard, detective or diplomate (using occupation or personal skills, depending on the first target "axe master" or "good fighter", and with help of spirit magic if accessible... well detect ennemy and that's all ^^)

If you have a BG character who is not focused on skills for fighting and/or Search, Track, Listen, you are making a character that doesn’t benefit from the cult, and is unlikely to advance within it, and is seemingly not that interested in its core passions and function. It’s fine to be more focussed on the tracking them down part, or consider yourself more the scout than the fighter part of a military group or hunter team, but a diplomat sounds very much like a character that is in a different cult with almost opposite nature, and maybe sometimes hangs out with Babeester Gor members. 
 

On 7/12/2023 at 8:01 PM, Shiningbrow said:

Now, if there was another level between Initiate and Rune Level (as has been suggested elsewhere),

While interesting to consider (and valid for Ernalda, who has God Talkers), I don’t think it’s the case for BG. (It was not in drafts of the Earth cults)
 

On 7/12/2023 at 6:48 PM, JRE said:

In the same way, many Babeester Gor Axe maidens may switch later to Ernalda (if Death is not strong in them)

BG axe maidens who are not strong with Death are only marginally more likely than Humakti who are not strong with Death. So, while not ruling it out as something that might happen due to extraordinary circumstances, it’s not something that normally happens. 

On 7/14/2023 at 10:14 AM, jajagappa said:

True that they are usually part of an Earth temple complex. But why assume BG cannot or would not look after them, too?

In a sense they do, as they are part of the temple complex.  But their role in looking after them is as defender. The BG cultists have to give up a role as mother/parent even to their own children. Initiation to BG involves giving up that part of life. It’s a specific rule of the cult. They can be distant aunts or cousins, but not nurturers. 
(this will clearer when the Earth cults book is out). 
 

On 7/14/2023 at 10:14 AM, jajagappa said:

I think that's too narrow a focus. It's absolutely part of it, and not shied away from, but they are guardians as well as avengers.

Babeestor Gor is a Death cult - but more than that, their core role is as killers of those who break oaths - this includes guarding temples, but guardians who are prepared to use lethal force. Guarding is one of the many roles the BGs have, but that’s more like one of the tasks they might have, rather than a professional specialty - a BG who only guards and never seeks out oathbroakers is like a Storm Bull who only guards against Chaos but never goes to fight it, one who doesn’t really do the core task of the cult. 

On 7/14/2023 at 10:14 AM, jajagappa said:

True that they are usually part of an Earth temple complex. But why assume BG cannot or would not look after them, too?

In a sense they do, as they are part of the temple complex.  But their role in looking after them is as defender. The BG cultists have to give up a role as mother/parent even to their own children. Initiation to BG involves giving up that part of life. It’s a specific rule of the cult. They can be distant aunts or cousins, but not nurturers. 
(this will clearer when the Earth cults book is out). 
 

On 7/14/2023 at 10:14 AM, jajagappa said:

I think that's too narrow a focus. It's absolutely part of it, and not shied away from, but they are guardians as well as avengers.

Babeestor Gor is a Death cult. Their role is as killers of those who break oaths - this includes guarding temples, but guardians who are prepared to use lethal force. Guarding is one of the many roles the BGs have, but that’s more like one of the tasks they might have - a BG who only guards and never seeks out oathbroakers is like a Storm Bull who only guards against Chaos but never goes to fight it, one who doesn’t really do the core task of the cult. 

On 7/13/2023 at 2:44 AM, mfbrandi said:

but to suggest a legitimate path for non-breeder non-murderers.

Their are cults besides Ernalda and Babeester Gor. Killing is core to Babeester Gor, reproduction is core to Ernalda. 
The Earth Goddesses book will include Esrola and the other grain/land goddesses.  I’d quite like to see the cults of lesser Earth goddesses like Delaeo or Delaina developed more (most likely to be as sub-cults of Ernalda), which could focus less on motherhood. 
But Ernalda clearly is intended to have reproduction at its core, and Babeester Gor is for killers. 

On 7/6/2023 at 10:49 AM, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Note: the player is a bit of a mini-maxer, and really wanted Bear's Strength for use in combats,

A player who thinks that Babeester Gor doesn’t have enough good combat magic! When they are literally the cult with the best combat magic in the game! 
You were much more accommodating to them than I would have been, I’d just point out to them that the BG cult already grants the Strength spirit magic spell, and cults are more than a way to get cool spells. 

I do think a Babeester Gor and the idea of being a hunter are compatible, and my own Babeester Gor PC worked as a hunter for some years when the clan was too poor to support her as a professional warrior. But I’d think more Foundchild than Yinkin or Odayla (though she did not join another cult). I think few BG cultists are very sociable. 

There certainly are multiple ways to approach a BG, they are not all berserkers (or all careful hunters of men) for sure. But they are all sacred killers who must be willing to kill. 

On 7/8/2023 at 8:58 AM, jajagappa said:

Orphans. As Defenders of the Earth, the Axe temples will take in, protect, and raise orphans. They will be raised within and known to the cult, and can naturally become initiates without a specific trauma. 

There are relatively few dedicated Babeester Gor temples, usually they are part of Earth temple complexes - and it’s the Ernalda cult that takes in orphans. 
Including the the ones that are ‘mythic’ orphans but not actual ones, the children of Babeester Gor cultists who accidentally get pregnant (possibly in an incident involving a lot of beer) but must reject the child and give them to be raised by the temple. 
 

FWIW, I do think it is common to transfer between Earth cults, but not in the way suggested. I think it is very rare to move ‘horizontally’ between the Malign and Benign Earth cults (and most likely a one way change as a result of deep trauma and loss). But it’s considered normal to transfer ‘vertically’ as you age, just few people get very involved in Voria. But it’s the normal way for people to join Ty Kora Tek or Asrelia, by aging into it after being an initiate of a different cult earlier in life. 

The sub-runes are used in the Gods books. But the best way of thinking about it is they express a limitation of the god, not their mortal worshippers. Himile has the Cold rune, and so he can grant magic that makes things cold, but he can’t grant magic that creates shadow or darkness. But a troll that worshipped Himile would still have the Darkness rune and could learn darkness magic from another source. 

It’s a little different with Yelmalios Light rune, because they are forbidden to use some Fire magic, but again it’s a limitation of the god not the worshipper - they could still learn Fire magic if they leave the cult - or indeed if they progress in the cult sufficiently that they can learn it in a way acceptable to the cult (such as learning Sunspear from Yelm). 

On 6/27/2023 at 5:09 PM, DrGoth said:

It's what modern scholars, do sure.  But in previous times?  Not always so much. Remember Leonardo and mirror writing.  Sometimes knowledge is hoarded, not shared.

Or Trithemius who seems to have literally invented a fair bit of early cryptography, as well as the idea of steganography, in part to conceal occult ideas within other books of occultism (that are actually more texts on cryptography). 
Which seems bafflingly opaque, but would actually be not an unreasonable approach if you were sharing what you thought might possibly be the sort of secrets that got the God Learners hunted down by assassins. Which is a sort of prevailing worry for any LM studying God Learner era sorcerous texts. 

On 6/18/2023 at 5:19 PM, French Desperate WindChild said:

As I understand, sorcery is "neutral" : it uses the runes to do thing. Are things good or evil is not due to sorcery "system" ; like sword or feather, that's jus how to use it , what you want. So what means purify then ?

Remove from it whatever the God Learners did that was so wrong that things like the Gift Carriers of the Sending Gods found it necessary to seek them out and destroy them. It's not even necessarily a moral judgement, but an empirical one - have the gods sent assassins to destroy everyone who knows what you know? if they haven't, good! 

If sorcery is neutral, but the God Learners were so bad that they caused cataclysms in which the gods/elder races/almost everyone tried to destroy them, then the Alien Combination Machine is a way to keep sorcery neutral by making it less God Learnery. But they don't exactly know what is the bad stuff (and they can't, because the knowledge has been destroyed, unless they accidentally replicate it, in which case too late) so they just remove stuff that seems suspect - which is basically everything obviously Western and Malkioni, translating it to things that are more trustworthy (=Theyalan). 

On 6/18/2023 at 5:19 PM, French Desperate WindChild said:

n the same way sorcerers can create the effects they wish, if they are smart and prepared enough. As LM resources are exceptional, I don't understand why the LM sorcerers did not create spells they did not found.

Yeah, and this is why I think the rules as written 'hey, just anyone can make up a spell they want' is way too easy. Sorcery as a system can (within reason, and the as-yet-undefined limits of sorcery*), but I think it's such harder - it requires expert sorcerers working for years, building on past work, etc. Probably a form of hero questing. I think creating new spells from nothing (rather than translating from existing grimoires) is very difficult. I think the LM cult expanding its sorcery skill well beyond Truth rune magic would be a work of many sages over many years working together, and that happens pretty seldom. You need not just mastery of the Rune, but existing spells etc to work from. They only have that knowledge for Truth rune magic - and really the LM cult has little incentive to master other areas.

Of course it is possible though. The Buseri and Irripi Ontor cults have knowledge of celestial magic - the only reason LM doesn't too is their lack of interest. Irripi Ontor also has access too Lunar magic, also the references to Irripi Ontor using glamour seem to suggest Illusion knowledge but IO is much less conservative than LM and is presumably assisted through various hero questing and Lunar insights. And the Lunar College of Magic exists as a coordinating body to make sustained magical innovation in specific areas practical. 

But once the Sartar Magical Union gets going, who knows what happens. 

On 6/18/2023 at 5:19 PM, French Desperate WindChild said:

In my opinion, the reason is there are three levels of sorecery spells from a LM perspective :

- the spells that any LM sorcerers "should" know to do a good LM job (those we have, and that could be called Torvald fragments.) Not because Torvald didn't know more, just because he thought it was not necessary to LM students.

I'm inclined to think the Torvald Fragments are pretty much the only sorcery spells that the LM cult has available to them in easily usable form. They are in Elasa Script, and the LM sorcerers also commonly teach mastery of the central runes. 

On 6/18/2023 at 5:19 PM, French Desperate WindChild said:

the spells that any LM sorcerers "may" know if they think this spell will be usefull for themselves. They have to find a teacher or to create it. Probably a large number of spells are known by different LM masters, or somewhere described in some books in one of their library-temple however that is a personal path, not "supported" by the cult (= "at school") even if accepted.

I agree - but it's not just a matter of 'not in the curriculum'. They generally are very hard to find in translated form. Want to go an learn a bunch of celestial sorcery? Sure, we have a Buseri grimoire that explains it. You are going to have to learn Dara Happen though. Translate it into Theyalan? Why would an LM Sage do that, when it has no magical benefit to them (they obviously can already read Dara Happan)? Information about many areas of sorcery can be found in the archives of LM temples - but mostly written in Western. Sometimes Auld Wyrmish, or Dara Happen, or Kralorelan. And trying to find training to Master the Fire rune, or Illusion or Sea rune in a LM temple? 

On 6/18/2023 at 5:19 PM, French Desperate WindChild said:

the forbidden spells  (if they are). Those who are against LM's way (against great compromise) like what we think at first when we think "god learner" (steal divine power) "vampire" (steal life power) "chaos" (corrupt xxx) or things like that.

Such works are forbidden or restricted regardless of whether they are sorcerous in nature or not. But who knows what lurks in  the hidden stacks. Of course, discovering them is often a sign that your temple in the past hosted vampires or Illuminates or worse. 

*compare Ars Magica (truly, the greatest game for a sorcery like magic system) which actually does have precisely defined limits of magic, just one of many ideas RQ sorcery could benefit from. 

On 6/17/2023 at 6:20 PM, metcalph said:

This is like asking why do the Carmanians think of themselves as sorcerers of Idovanus?  They explored the local mythology. 

I don't think it is. The figure of Martalak is part of a mythic cycle whose main point is that sorcery is weak and a bad idea, and reinforced by their ideological enemies specifically to say they are wrong. It's not equivalent to the Carmanians thinking of themselves as sorcerer of Idovanus - it's the equivalent of the Carmanians thinking of themselves as sorcerers of Malakinus. Or Aeolians calling their zzaburi caste meldeks. There literally are not any myths of Martalak without the underlying message that sorcery is in some way wrong or inferior to mysticism - so why would the Valkarists decide to identify themselves as inferior? Plus it makes no sense for them to do so while identifying as Malkioni. Its also poor quality God Learning, too, implying their exploration of the local mythology was lazy or shallow - Martalak isn't a cognate of Makan (you could make some sort of claim for anyone in the 'central' part of the various Dancer triads (Vith, Korudel, etc as being cognate to Makan), but Martalak, as specifically a sorcerer, is cognate to Zzabur. 

On 6/17/2023 at 6:20 PM, metcalph said:

Makan is just a name for which the God Learners coined for the Invisible God. 

So they call it something else. I don't think I ever said the Valkarists do revere Makan, that would have been mainstream in Valkaro's era but if Valkaro is really inspired by Pilif and the early New Order he might be more revisionist in other ways and teach about Kionvara, or be more reactionary Hrestoli and revere Ferbrith etc. Valkaro was a God Learner sorcerer, though, and he largely thought that God Learner sorcerers deserved more power not less, so revering Makan doesn't seem too out of line either. I think we both agree that the modern Valkarists are going to be far less obsessed with the finer points of Malkioni theology than in the God Learner era. But Martalak is a name for something else, and more or less a slur on sorcery at that. 

On 6/17/2023 at 6:20 PM, metcalph said:

I really don't know where many of your statements about Martalak come from ("manifestly inferior to the God Learners")

The other references to Martalak make them seem to be more or less charm making village sorcerers, while the God Learners at the time were conquering the world and the otherworld. Can you point to anything that implies they aren't inferior to the God Learners in magical ability? Anything at all that even suggests it?

I think wyters are spirits that are magically linked to a community. Before they are linked to the community they are a different form of spirit. If they lose the link, they revert to what they were before (though weaker without the community support).

Wyters probably gain new powers from community heroquests and great rituals. 

24 minutes ago, soltakss said:

When Arkat joined the Lightbringers, he gave his Brithini relics to them for safekeeping. Lhankhor Mhy might have been able to study them and to gain sorcery from them.

While this is true, it seems likely Brithini sorcery would still be regarded as evil alien magic. Except for any Sages who are Illuminated Arkati, of course. Those relics probably live in the secret Special Collection section of the library. 

The problem with the zenshin as sorcerers is that there is quite limited reason to think they are (apart from the description of Zaktirra), and their description as serving the gods and spirits of Vormain would suggest they are anything but sorcerers. If anything, it would suggest they are largely shamans.

On 6/15/2023 at 6:28 PM, metcalph said:

I'm currently thinking of the Valkarists as a traditional Malkioni school. Their God is Martalak rather Makan but that just makes them the same as the Carmanians who worship Idovanus but are still Malkioni.  I don't think the distinction that the Middle Sea Empire made between Makan and Malkioneran is at all relevant these days.  The Valkarists were opposed to the God Learners not over the nature of the Cosmos but about the teachings of Pilif (a wizard who attempted to seize power in Seshnela).  They fled to the Eastern Isles to set up their perfect society and were tolerated by the Middle Sea Empire in that they had a common enemy in the Eastern Seas Empire.

Why do you think the Valkarists think of themselves as Martalak sorcerers? It's seems strange to me. Martalak can be considered the name of a local sorcerer tradition that seems quite manifestly inferior to a Middle Sea Empire era sorcerer. Or Martalak can be considered a local myth about sorcery that chiefly differs from Malkioni myth in that its main point is the inferiority of sorcery to mysticism - to agree that they are followers of Martalak is to agree that they are (nobly) wrong. And the Sheradpara doctrine is one promulgated largely by the Three Sages of the Eastern Seas Empire, whose main interaction with Valkaro is that he went to war against the Empire. Plus Martalak is of pre-Dawn origin, so Malkioni identifying themselves with Martalak would be to reject Hrestol? Valkaro preached the way of Malkion and converted the natives of the Ambovombe and surrounds. If they worshipped Martalak, that would seem a lot more like Valkaro being converted to East Island ways. 

Not that the Martalak sorcerers themselves care much about any of this - for them sorcery is a profession, not a religion. 

I agree with you that it matters very little which exact conception of Malkion the Valkarists believe. They probably haven't interacted a great deal with other Malkioni for centuries, and have no great incentive to start now given there are relatively few in the entire Eastern half of the lozenge. And are clearly heretics by orthodox Malkioni standards for their Pilifism anyway. My mention of Makanism vs Malkioneranism is more about method than theology. Mainstream Makanism derives knowledge from study of the Abiding Book and other law (and even holds that empiricism can be a source of error, pure intellect being superior to perception), Malkioneranism includes much more active hero questing (and more sinisterly, has its origins in Nysaloran era texts, so may have been a source of corruption of Malkionism by Illuminated ideas (whether Nysaloran or Arkati who can say). I think it seems much more likely that Valkaro fell on the Malkioneranist side of that divide, and his ideas about method (a more flexible relationship to theology, frequent otherworld exploration (that seems to happen a lot in Domdanalash with its tunnels into the underworld), and exploitation of the pagans resources) have probably held largely to this day. If anyone wants to make the Valkarists great villains (rather than the Le Guin derived image of gentle wizards of vaguely Taoist bent), Valkaro can certainly be cast as an arch-colonialist and/or the source of God Learner corruption that leads the Valkarists to repeat the God Learners mistakes. 

On 6/15/2023 at 6:28 PM, metcalph said:

Therer would be a great deal of interchange in magics between the Valkarists and the Sages.  For example my suggested Sagely magics of reducing runic affinities could be inverted by the Valkarists to make their Spearmen more potent with the magic of the Gods.  The Sages will view this as an entanglement in the world but the Valkarists don't care - they are content with the Mind of Martalak.

I think this only makes sense if your supposition that the Sages are actually sorcerers holds true, which I still think highly unlikely on several grounds. 

The Valkarists would be fairly effective as a naval power based on sea and weather magic, but not all of the Spearmen even seem to be warriors. They seem to be historically in regular conflict with both the Ludoch of the Alsporanjabbi tribe, and the Vormaino, and certainly conflict with the Vormaino heats up in the early Hero Wars era with the Reconquest of the Pure Lands. 

On 6/15/2023 at 6:33 PM, Shiningbrow said:

Basically, just a fully memorised invocation that does one thing, and one thing only. It can't be manipulated by them in anyway, and so all variables are fixed. It's still not easy to cast, and that's why it has its own skill percentage.

The Open Seas spell seems to be this. Non Sorcerers can cast it reliably, sorcerers may be able to do a bit more (though this may be limited - possibly they can just cast it a bit more efficiently). But it’s described as being unusual.

It may possibly also be limited to rituals. 

Sorcery use amongst the LM Sages is also probably connected to the strong enthusiasm for the LM cult by the God Learners.

Was LM as linked to sorcery in the First Age? Maybe. But they certainly seem to have embraced sorcery wholesale during the Second Age. And of course, it happened most in Nochet - which, as the greatest seaport in Genertela (probably all Glorantha) was a very notable point of interaction between the Lightbringers and the Middle Sea Empire. The HeroQuest Kingdom of Sartar book describes this as many LM Sages being confused into thinking that the Abiding Book was the same as the Eternal Book, when it really just contained secrets from the Eternal Book stolen by Zzabur. And the Alien Combination Machine purifies such knowledge by translating it back into Theyalan (almost certainly the Elasa Secrets script). It seems the result of a hero quest to find a way to retain the knowledge of all the nifty sorcery they had learned but severing its connecting with God Learning. It makes sense that Torvald would be a hero from Nochet where the study of sorcery was most valued, and that the most complete knowledge of the Torvald Fragments is housed there.

Quite why they have only fragments is another interesting side question - and I suspect the answer is to do with Torvald getting caught up in the downfall of the God Learners somehow. Perhaps even just being on a boat caught in the Closing, but could be more, maybe the Gift Carriers came for him because he knew too much, he seems to have pulled off quite the God Learning feat himself. 

But if Torvald was a Second Age figure, it raises the question of whether the LM cult used sorcery prior to the Second Age and their learning sorcery from Western sources. It would suggest not, if prior to that point the Torvald Fragments and the Alien Communication Machine was not known to the cult. 

Another theory, though, is that LM is originally, or is the same as, a Western mythic entity, perhaps Tadenit the inventor of writing (and maybe Issaries likewise is the same as Kachast), and so it would make sense that LM has always had some sorcery, if embedded in deep knowledge of the Elasa Secrets. The LM cult also claims that its knowledge of alchemy, often linked to sorcery, was learnt from Mostal in the God Time. 

And, as Jeff has been making clear that Buserian and Lhankor Mhy have been recognised as the same entity since the First Age, what knowledge of sorcery they had or how do they understand its origins. 

Of course, most of this wouldn't be that well understood or acknowledged by most modern Sages. 

12 minutes ago, Ormi Phengaria said:

The relationship here is probably similar to the rule which caps all sorcery to a Read/Write skill in the CRB.

Maybe. Martial Arts skill is a knowledge skill, after all.

11 minutes ago, Ormi Phengaria said:

Possibly Open Seas uses another skill, too.

In the draft version, it doesn’t use any skill and is cast able by non-sorcerers, but is noted as being unusual.