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davecake

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Posts posted by davecake

  1. 30 minutes ago, Darius West said:

    But all animals ARE ACTUALLY a little bit plant. 

    My point is that, regardless of the abstract ultimate truth of such a statement (which like most such assertions, comes down to nitpicking definitions), by saying so you have:

    1. rendered your use of the term essentially useless for facilitating any form of discussion 
    2. and you have rendered your use of the term clearly different to the way in which essentially everyone else uses.

    You’ve also used forms of argument to arrive there that are essentially counter to Gloranthan cosmology in its entirety (mitochondria? Runes are not distinct but always overlapping? Are you next going to explain how Darkness is just an absence of fire, how life requires oxygen, how metals are different elements? ) to essentially produce a private use of the terms. Like 👏👏👏 for intellectual maneuver, but is there an actual point achieved by this?

  2. On 1/18/2023 at 6:49 PM, Eff said:

    So :20-form-dragon: is denoted as a shape, and :20-god-Godunya: has been a condition or modifier as recently as the Guide but may instead be a personal rune now, judging by the procedural rhetoric of smiley codes. 

    :20-form-dragon: Is a Form, which isn’t the same as a shape, though loosely related. Man is associated with a specific loose shape, but Beast (for example) includes variety of different limb arrangements (which maybe the case here if it includes Wyrms, wyverns, etc). I’d still put :20-god-Godunya: as a Condition Rune, partly because it’s fits nowhere else, and partly because that’s where most weird magic stuff goes. But we won’t really know how it fits into RQG until we see the relevant cult writeups I guess. 

    On 1/18/2023 at 6:49 PM, Eff said:

    What that would mean, taken directly and simply, is that :20-god-Godunya: is something that can be applied to :20-form-man:, :20-form-beast:, :20-form-plant:, :20-form-spirit:, :20-form-chaos:, presumably others, and also :20-form-dragon:.

    I don’t think that all those have to exist in any practical or extant form - I can’t think of any Draconic Plants - but more or less. We can find examples, or plausible examples, of some of them, such as the Amethyst Dragon of Greater Chaos, the Path of Immanent Mastery, the Dragon Hsunchen, etc. I think a dragonewt can be considered to always have the :20-form-dragon: and to have the :20-god-Godunya: rune as it long as it has the ability to use Dragon Magic - ie is at least Beaked, and has not fallen off the Dragon path. But that could be approached differently in the rules (it might make more sense to denote human use of Dragonewt magic (such as the EWF) by the Dragonewt rune, and use the :20-god-Godunya: rune differently). 

     

    On 1/18/2023 at 6:49 PM, Eff said:

    Now with that said, I find myself somewhat bemused by the thought that shapes are somehow absolutely mutually exclusive when humans have :20-form-beast: as well, and if that's because of real-world biology, they should also have :20-form-plant:because of mitochondria, intestinal flora, etc., :20-form-spirit: because they do have a latent potential to become a bodiless spirit... but that's the trouble of a game mechanic that ostensibly represents pure psychology getting tangled up in metaphysics.


    I don’t think that form runes are strongly associated with shapes in the general case, only for Man (which is specifically noted a bunch of places). Beast and Plant vary widely, Dragonewts may or may not have wings (and if Wyrms and wyverns count, that’s a lot of variation), Spirit is more or less defined by not having a (permanent) shape, and Chaos is notoriously associated with vast variety of shapes, and gratuitous inconsistency of shape. 

     

    On 1/18/2023 at 6:49 PM, Eff said:

    that's the trouble of a game mechanic that ostensibly represents pure psychology getting tangled up in metaphysics.

     I personally think that the Man and Beast runes represented as Opposing Runes is a very messy concept that, while it initially works somewhat as a psychological concept, almost completely fails as a magical/metaphysical concept almost everywhere it gets used, and shows some pretty deep confusion. 

    On 1/18/2023 at 9:30 PM, Joerg said:

    It appears that the :20-god-Godunya: rune originated with Daruda.

    The Guide says the original owner was the Cosmic Dragon, same as it says for the Dragonewt rune, thus making it legitimately draconic at least. Presumably two approaches to the same original power? So it predates Daruda, in the sense of deep mythic origins, but yes, Daruda seems to be its first appearance of it manifest as a separate power. 

    • Like 1
  3. On 1/27/2023 at 9:33 AM, Erol of Backford said:

    Do intelligent wyms speak Aldu Wyrmish? Even water wyms?

    Explicitly yes to both in the bestiary. Wyrms are the only creatures that routinely both speak and write Auld Wyrmish (dragonewts very seldom have any written language skills). 

    • Thanks 1
  4. On 1/18/2023 at 5:33 PM, radmonger said:

    As are the dragon rune and the dragonewt rune.

    Indeed.

    On 1/18/2023 at 5:33 PM, radmonger said:

    I don't think it is explicitly stated anywhere, but Dragonewt may reasonably be considered a hybrid rune of Man and Dragon,

    Not only has it not been explicitly stated anywhere, it would be introducing the concept of a hybrid Form Rune, which also doesn’t seem to exist (a creature that seems to have two aspects of two Form runes (eg an Elf or a Baboon) just seems to have two Form Runes). So I don’t think so - though it’s interesting to know if magisaurs, wyrms, etc are considered to have the Dragonewt rune, and if the Dragonewt rune correlates to the ability to Speak Auld Wyrmish fluently and/naturally, and whether surgically altered humans count (which might just be a game system abstraction call). 
     

    On 1/18/2023 at 5:33 PM, radmonger said:

    Trade is a hybrid of Mobility and Harmony. This allows a rune cult that has that rune to teach magic that would otherwise require both runes, as many Issaries spells do

    My current expectation is that the Trade rune won’t really be meaningful in RQG, just an artifact of the Issaries cult understanding of the world. And Issaries traders will have separate Harmony and Movement runes. But it might change. It’s the only ‘hybrid’ Power rune, and the only real hybrid rune in the game, and I think Jeff would rather it wasn’t part of any game system. 
     

    On 1/18/2023 at 5:33 PM, radmonger said:

    Godunya's guards develop Beast into Dragon. By their RQIII rune spell list, they looks suspiciously like they are either descended from dragon hsunchen, or represent the god learner's idea of what dragon hsunchen would be.

    By Godunya’s Guards here, assuming the Path of Immanent Mastery - the Guide definitely treats them as the same, though this is more ambiguous at other times. They are given the Man rune specifically in GoG, so I’d not say Beast (plus their method is the very human one of learning complex esoteric pseudo-intellectual babble). I agree it is magic descended from a God Learnerish understanding of dragon hsunchen. It’s notable though that the body transformed isn’t simply that of a dragonewt, but has some things in common with a dragonewt using Dragon magic, such as breathing fire and changing size. So though some would argue it’s a very flawed understanding of Dragon Magic, it might still be the correct rune (if it is indeed like the Dragon magic used by Dragonewts), the dragonewts would argue they are setting themselves back spiritually by using it, which they seek to do continuously for their entire lives). 

    On 1/18/2023 at 5:33 PM, radmonger said:

    The EWF instead developed Man into Dragonewt, by surgery and ritual

    I think it’s more like the the POIM tried to skip becoming Dragonewtlike and just approximate it (Auld Wyrmish is incomprehensible, Charismatic Wisdom is incomprehensible, close enough, right?) without going through the difficult in between step of becoming a different kind of being in base form - they take a shortcut to a dragon body, changing their form without changing their Form. 
    But the EWF method changes the Form (at least as far as Auld Wyrmish goes, anyway) before trying for Dragon Magic. Godunyas method, which is the fundamental underpinning of what we might call orthodox Darudism, tries to harness Dragon magic directly by changing soul without changing the body, avoiding the confusion of both the POIM and the EWF - but is extraordinarily difficult, taking centuries and requiring huge magical effort. 
     

     

    • Like 1
  5. On 1/19/2023 at 2:23 AM, Richard S. said:

    technically speaking all humans do have a bit of every form rune

    I don’t think this is even technically true for the majority of humans (are humans part Plant?). I’d be interested to see a source. 

  6. On 1/18/2023 at 10:48 PM, Darius West said:

    Sorry to go all Godlearner on you, but all creatures in Glorantha have a little bit of all the runes.  Runes are like atoms in Glorantha. 

    From your conception of what God Learners might believe, you can make up whatever metaphysical answer you want (though I assume the God Learners would mostly be arguing about such things from a theoretical perspective, and their only answers to questions about Draconic magic would be wildly disputed). Though the above assertion makes about as much sense to me as ‘all animals are a little bit Plant, and all Plants a bit animal’, which is just the same logic applied to different Form Runes and would seem to be the sort of statement that simply generalises to the point of practical meaninglessness. 
     

    But as I’ve said pretty repeatedly in this discussion - almost always when people talk about someone ‘having’ a Rune, they mean in some practical, magically applicable, way that is in practice a game system dependent use. 
     

    The question of whether some trace rune could be detected with a theoretical supersensitive laboratory rune-o-scope seems a different question, and not one to which I can see there being a useful answer. 

  7. 1 hour ago, Erol of Backford said:

    I'd theorize that he has both the Dragon Rune and Man Rune. It may be a bit off topic but wouldn't all Kralorelan nobles have a split tongue?

    I don't think so. Even among the mandarins very few have reason to directly deal with dragons or dragonewts. 

    1 hour ago, Erol of Backford said:

    Godunya’s guards are not dragonewts, but are mortal men whose devotion and dedication allows them to assume the form of dragons. So they have only the man rune but could have the dragon rune when they assume dragon form.

    1) again, using draconic magic and 'having the dragonewt Rune' are different things. In the same  sense that a shaman uses Spirit magic and magic affecting Spirits all the time, but does not have the Spirit rune. And a crested dragonewt surely has the dragonewt rune, but no draconic magic. 

    2) whether the Path of Immanent Mastery, who assume the form of dragons, are using real Dragon Magic in any way is a source of some debate - the God Learners thought so, but others think they are deluded and have it exactly backwards - compared to eg Godunya, so has a dragon soul and human form, the POIM gradually gain a dragons form, but many argue always have solely human souls. I tend to agree with that point of view - real Dragon Magic is mystic and draws on draconic consciousness. Of course, the guards of the Godunya may be something else, advanced Darudist dragon mystics who use methods resembling Dragon Magic to temporary assume a dragon form. 

    1 hour ago, Erol of Backford said:

    To further the muddied waters a half elven PC in our campaign has both the man and plant rune, for discussion purposes. What fun.

    Most elves have both the Man and Plant Rune, being both humanoid sentient mortals, and plants. It's if he has both the Plant and Beast runes it gets really weird.

    Though half-elves existing in modern Glorantha is very weird and unusual anyway - humans and elves can't produce offspring without quite exotic magic. In Pavis: GTA for HeroQuest, the Pavis cult possessed a sorcery grimoire that contained a ritual to allow it (and also half-Mostali), and Pavis is the most recent example of a half-elf I know of. I can't think of a well known Third Age example - can anyone else? It seems to be a result of EWF magical projects to reproduce the Golden Age. Apart from that, it seemed to happen more in the First Age. 

  8. On 1/12/2023 at 7:11 PM, French Desperate WindChild said:

    A curse is not for a single target during 2 minutes

    If it is using Spirit Magic it is - I wouldn't read to much into the use of the word. Using the word to mean a short term malign magic is fine. 

    But if you want longer term curses, they can be from sorcery (very long term spell effects), divine power (the results of many so-called Spirits of Retribution (some of which are not spirits at all, but divine actions) are very much like classic curses), or other magic, especially the long term effects of various spirits, either through the use of Spirit powers directly or covert possession. I think @metcalphis quite right about this being a common form of curse on a person, and I think you also get spirit bindings (or analogous items that attract or tie a spirit to the area, like the ones Mallia worshippers use to spread disease) as a common form of curse. This is the classic idea of a witch type creating a curse object and hiding it where it curses the target. It seems  like one that would work fine with RQG. 

    We don't need special extra rules for all this. Most of it is already there in the spirit rules. And summoning spirits, as Jeff explicitly points out, can be done by Spirit magicians, Rune magicians, or sorcerers - and yes, probably mystics too). For a LOT of ideas about how to make interesting magic effects, you either don't need new rules, or just need minor additions such as new spells, you mostly just need new types of spirit constructed using the existing rules. 

    The existing rules say:

    Spirits can have Curse as a power - examples include the ability to sour milk, spoil food, blunt tools, etc. Pretty much most classic minor curses. Could be from a hostile free spirit (eg if you offend a spirit of place), a spirit servant of a magician, a spirit bound in a cursed object, or a covertly possessing spirit. Of course they could also just cast spirit magic at inopportune times. 

    Covert possession by spirits as a form of curse - that is exactly what a Passion spirit is (Bestiary pg 166). 

    19 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

    Apparently Greg was discussing this idea where spirit possession could give one abilities, such as shape-shifting.

    Spirits that change the shape of the host with are explicitly mentioned in the Bestiary, pg 167. 

    Affect Environment or Control (which allows control over incomplete creatures) could be other forms of curse - affect environment could make it so that those effected always feel cold, or a sense of foreboding, or find it hard to things, or always are accompanied by a horrible smell. Control could lead to constant problems with rats, or fleas, or dogs to always be hostile. Classic curse stuff. 

    spirits can obviously cause disease, and even have a Chaotic feature (depending on the feature, it could either be used directly, or applied as a curse to anyone it possesses)

    And by extension, almost anything possible to a Spirit of Reprisal is possible to other spirits. 

    So that is a pretty huge range of curses. 

    And add a few extra special magics, and you get even more. For example, the Create Foe-Curser spell curses those who trigger it with a curse that can last until the next Sacred Time (if not dispelled). It's not hard to imagine a few such specialist spells for other curses. 

     

     

    • Helpful 2
  9. 41 minutes ago, metcalph said:

    I would have preferred a statement like the above about having the Dragonewt Rune means some inhuman features rather than a tediously abstract exegesis about the treatment of runes between RQG and HQG.

    I'm sorry you find having your arguments questioned and clarified tedious, but we are not the only two people in this discussion, and I make arguments for clarity rather than based on what you might have preferred.

    • Thanks 1
  10. The draconic consciousness of the EWF is a mystic consciousness that is very similar to Illumination. It may be enough to use some Dragon Magic, but humans certainly seem to have a different relationship to Dragon magic than dragonewts do.

    It's obviously not the same thing as the physical modifications required to speak Auld Wyrmish - which may or may not be the same as 'gaining the Dragonewt rune', I don't know. Certainly being able to speak Auld Wyrmish is helpful for those seeking draconic consciousness and dragon magic, but they are clearly not the same thing, as demonstrated by the entire species (magisaurs, trachodons, etc) who speak the language easily, but are almost defined by their lack of draconic consciousness/dragon magic. 

    Peter quotes the story of Orlaront being born 'purple blooded' - but doesn't quote from a couple of paragraphs down where it says "They were said to be dragon blooded, but in fact, most of the time it was meaningless." - it could just as easily be the results of a curse, or a magical consequence of a past life, probably one as a dragon mystic. It shows that there was something extraordinary about Orlaront, and his history with Forang Forash shows that he knows a fair bit about the EWF. But I don't think says much about Orlaronts essential Runes. 

     

    • Like 2
  11. 14 hours ago, metcalph said:

    If a human worshipping Aldrya means that he acquires the plant rune in RQG then I see no problem with a draconist like Orlaront having the Dragonewt Rune.

    Based on drafts, I think the cult description of Aldrya in the Gods book will make it clear that humans initiating into Aldrya is as in RQ3 - effectively dieing through ritual sacrifice and being reborn as an elf. They gain the Plant Rune - but lose their Beast Rune. It's a horrific process. Other parts within the drafts I have state clearly that all humans lack a tie to the Plant rune. 

    I'm not saying it is impossible for humans to 'have the Dragonewt rune', but that someone having the Dragonewt rune in their HeroQuest stats does not at mean that they do in RQG, because the latter strictly implies a change to  their essential nature, and the former does not. 

  12. On 1/6/2023 at 3:20 PM, metcalph said:

    Orlaront Dragonfriend has a Dragonewt Rune according to the Sartar Companion p72.

    Runes in HQG and RQG mean fundamentally different things.

    In RQG they are at least somewhat linked to your essential nature, certainly in the case of Form runes, a somewhat simulationist approach. In HQG they were a measure of your ability to use that kind of magic or ability to solve problems, which equates to multiple things in RQG which *might* include a Rune, but certainly need not include your innate Form. So a shaman in RQG is not a spirit so has no Spirit rune, but his Fetch, Spirit Lore, Spirit Travel and other skills, his Shamanic abilities, his related spirit magic, that all enable him to solve problems using Spirit rune related methods all roughly equate to his an RQG Spirit rune. 

    So I'd say Orlaront having the Dragonewt rune only means that he knows a bunch about dragonewts and other things draconic, probably some Dragon Magic, and can overcome problems using draconic means. But it says nothing about his essential nature. 

    RQG is a somewhat crunchy very simulationist system, HQG is a fairly abstracted narrativist system, and both have different ideas about how a somewhat abstract system of runes translates into game mechanics. 

  13. On 1/12/2023 at 7:13 PM, Joerg said:

    So no cookies for newtlings, timinits?

    Hey, I didn't make the rules. 

    From Glorantha Sourcebook

    Quote

    This Rune represents the humanoid shape, and is common among all intelligent humanoid races. 

    Personally, I would say nestlings yes (as they are Ancestor Worshippers, which seems to be a very Man Rune thing), they must have got some sort of exemption for the tail. Timinits I don't think so, just too weird. 

     

    On 1/12/2023 at 7:13 PM, Joerg said:

    Centaurs and merfolk obviously get a pass for being at least partially humanoid.

    Centaurs seem to get an inheritance clause from the human half, but don't seem that excited by it. I think it varies for other Beast Men. Merfolk I'm not sure - they seem to mix their more otherworldly ancestors freely into their genealogies? 

    On 1/12/2023 at 7:13 PM, Joerg said:

    Broos and Scorpionfolk might, too, if they weren't that chaotic.

    Yeah, who knows, and who expects the rules to apply consistently to either?

    On 1/12/2023 at 7:13 PM, Joerg said:

    Herd men don't get Gramps Mortal, but the mostly quadruped, decidedly non-humanoid Morokanth get it for them.

    Yes. The Morokanth have the Man rune, but arguably because they took it from the Herd Men rather than coming by it naturally. 

    On 1/12/2023 at 7:13 PM, Joerg said:

    What do the magisaurs get after losing their dragonewt rune? Spirit?

    The giant ones may be stupid but still are borderline sentient, much like failed dragonewt dinosaurs repenting and transforming into pteranodons.

    Did they lose it? Having the Dragonewt rune (a Form rune) and being able to cast draconic magic are not the same thing at all. So I think Magisaurs, Trachodons, and Wyrms all could be said to retain the Dragonewt rune. They can all naturally speak Auld Wyrmish, for example. They can't cast dragon magic, but nor can Crested Dragonewts and no one says they don't get the Dragonewt rune. As Jeff says, Dragon Magic and the Dragonewt spiritual advancement towards dragon status is more than just changing a rune, it is a consequence of spiritual development within that system, just as devolution to other forms is a consequence of spiritual failure within that system. 

    They are like Rootless elves, who possess the Plant Form rune but are unable to access it magically. 

    Normal dinosaurs need no other Form rune besides Beast, like any other non-sentient animal. Symbology need not recapitulate phylogeny. 

  14. You could also make the Cradle a lot shorter not having the PCs present for the whole thing, thus cutting out large chunks. For example, you can miss the first few large fights by having the PCs join after the Cradle has been been boarded in Pavis. 

    • Like 1
  15. 55 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

    Someone hasn't been to the Hill of Gold recently... 😜

    That was just because Orlanth rudely takes away his great big spear just before he really needs it. Jerk. 

    (if you are being charged by a berserk Zorak Zorani, your best hope is to try to take them out before they get a chance to hit you, and to do that it really helps to have a very big, very long, spear) 

    13 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

    Sorry, no, a wanton misreading of the rules.

    How do you figure that? You can certainly be harmlessly carried by an air elemental, and it makes sense that two elementals can't occupy the same space. Same tactic works against Lunar elementals too (usefully, because Lunes are absolute monsters that are very hard to defend against). Not so handy with Fire elementals unless you are fireproof though. 

    • Like 1
  16. Another crazy sounding defence is that you can't be engulfed if you are already inside an elemental - so Orlanthi inside an air elemental. 

    17 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

    SunBright can kill them.  Another fairly rare spell - a nice plus for Yelmalio. 

    Yelmalio may have its flaws, but they are really are very good at fighting trolls and their shades etc, Sunbright is superb for it, and Lightwall helps too. And they get access to Vigor through Ernalda too. 

    • Like 4
  17. Eh, I played it the hard way. It took multiple sessions. It was quite the slog. But we wanted to say we had done it. 

    And despite its reputation, and me beefing it up a bit, my PCs were tough enough I kept adding opponents and complications to make it tougher. A few extra enemy rune lords and such (Radak the Iron Centurion in Pavis, Invictus and Belvani at Sun County, etc), some extra Lunes and Lunar Demons, and a few of the Coders appearing in the final scenes. Two of them ended up having to DI , but no one died. 

    But I don't really recommend it unless you just really want to say you have done it. RQG rules probably make it a bit easier/faster if you are skilled enough, the rules for skills over 100% subtracting from parry make tough characters a little more dangerous.

    My PCs ended up finding fighting shield walls full of Lunar hoplites or Sun County phalangites very annoying, with successful attacks so often just hitting a shielded location harmlessly, until they took to just waiting to the end up the round and doing an aimed blow to head, and then the shield walls went down like harvesting a field of wheat. 

    • Like 1
  18. 2 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

    Yes.  Belintar.  Q.E.D.

    Not that clear an example, Belintar suddenly gets surprise attacked by a second superhero, which hardly seems fair to anyone. 

    • Haha 1
  19. 4 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

    what about trees, beasts, etc... is a chicken mortal ? I think so, but without man rune.

    The Man Rune represents Grandfather Mortal. All intelligent humanoid mortals. 
     

    So no chickens, Magisaurs, dragonewts or unitelligent monkeys. 

  20. In terms of RQG Runes, Dragonewts should not have the Man rune. Even though elves, trolls, dwarves etc have the Man rune, so it clearly doesn’t represent humanity, it does represent mortality, and dragonewts are not mortal but ever reborn. They do not fear death, but seek only to get off the cycle of reincarnation, generally by becoming a dragon. So this might be their dragon rune. If they have an opposing Rune to Dragon, it would be Beast - giving into their emotional and unthinking side. 
    But Illumination can make Opposed Runes unopposed, and can also overrule the influence of Passions and Runes. And draconic consciousness is in some major ways the same as Illumination, presumingly in these ways, the most basic. I think the first step into higher level draconic consciousness for a dragonewt is the same as becoming a Beaked Dagonewt, and roughly equivalent to human Illumination into draconic consciousness, though probably a dragonewt only gets to gain the benefits (perhaps even roll for Illumination) on ‘death’. 

    In RQ2 the dragonewt effort to reconcile the opposing sides of their natures was represented by trying to reduce both of the two side of their nature to nothing, in RQG it could be represented by increasing both to 100% while continuing to keep them under control of the higher nature. It could also be having Passions for dragonewt Honor, that they must laboriously increase to 100% by right action, or Passions for various entanglements that they must laboriously reduce through repaying their debts of Honor, or scores (Passion or otherwise) for the paired character traits unique to each stage (with a new pair generated at the next). 
    Rules are arbitrary game conventions, as long as they represent the right behaviour and rewards etc it doesn’t matter much whether they are scores that go up or down. Once they have attained the requirements for the next level, continued living at the lower level has no purpose, so utuma. These are all possible rules that replicate or expand on Greg’s old rules in RQ2 WF 14. But we don’t need them unless we want dragonewt PCs, and we may not. They certainly might provide inspiration for mysticism rules though. 

    • Like 1
  21.  I think fairly early in the 1600s Jotisan and other members of the Sartar royal family are either in relative hiding, and avoiding public office and under assumed names, or they are dead, with Temertain surviving only because he is living as just another Apprentice/Sage, and only some of the Sages of the Nochet Knowledge Temple know his ancestry (though one seems to have slipped it to Redbird). 

  22. On 1/7/2023 at 10:37 PM, M Helsdon said:

    Heroes who succeed in climbing out of the Underworld after death are classified as Kaelith. Such people are powerful superheroes, but, there are never any guarantees that having escaped once they will succeed again.

    I don’t think just Superheroes - Jonat seems to be just a hero, and is explicitly named as one, Ethrist says he has returned from the underworld once and could do it again, Argrath claims to have done it multiple times quite early in his career.
    There are other examples of heroes who have definitely visited the underworld and returned in a Heroquest including Yanafals Tarnils, Hon-Eel, Valare Addi, presumably these would all be considered kaelith by those who knew the term.
    Anyone who has quested to the underworld and returned theoretically could do it I think, though most would find it very difficult, and most would not have conscious access to the kaelith ‘powers’. That would include PCs who completed the Eleven Lights quest or who freed Hofstaring, which makes for quite a few in my games! Some preparation might be required (eg the Golden Tear for Eleven Lights). 
    An interesting counter-example is Rastalulf of the Vanak Spear, who absolutely has been to the land of the dead and returned, and who does not reappear after the Immolation - I think the doom he accepts with the Vanak Spear from Alaramsor is what prevents him, Alaramsoror instead appears at his death to retrieve the spear. Besides, the allies who assisted his return the first time are (probably) all dead as well by this time. 


    I think it’s likely that a determined heroic opponent could make it very difficult to do return,  though it may be difficult to keep a really well resourced/sufficiently magically complex hero down (even Sheng Seleris had difficulty with the Red Emperor, who has a large magical/ otherworldly infrastructure dedicated to his return - and it took two superheroes, although not consciously working together, to permanently defeat Belintar). And of course all bets are off with a Lightbringers Quest to retrieve them. 
    Its also notable that a weirdly large number of heroes who died and returned were killed by Harrek - at least Ethilrist, Argrath, Jar-Eel and the Red Emperor - and it’s Jar-Eel who finishes off Belintar even though Harrek has just been fighting him. Presumably he could make it difficult for at least the lesser heroes to return, and generally just doesn’t care to? 

     

     

  23. 3 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

    Place the spirit in the crystal in the worm or get out your asbestos gloves and stuff it down a void hole at your friendly neighborhood festering void hole?

    Well, if you are a dishonourable ally of Chaos, sure. And willing to risk a close encounter with Chaos yourself.
    There are multiple foreseeable bad outcomes from this course of action. But you do you.

    A more likely, but equivalent, case would be a Lunar feeding it to the Bat. Or a Thed worshipper opening a Chaos void. But these are the acts of a villain. Not to say you can’t, or even shouldn’t - but the story consequences may be large. 

    • Like 2
  24. Keeping a Hero dead can be difficult. 

    6 hours ago, HreshtIronBorne said:

    As far as RAW, the easiest way is you can bind his spirit right after you kill him if you have a shaman handy, or other specialist in manipulating soul energies.

    Correct - though as an experienced Hero, Ethilrist is almost certainly pretty formidable in spirit combat too, at the very least a master of spirit combat with a high POW, but probably spirit plane allies, access to useful magic, and probably exotic heroic powers like the equivalent of shamanic abilities, and spirit plane eapons and armour. So easier said than done. And once done, Ethilrists allies will come after you. There are definitely more advanced versions of this technique, eg the minor Lunar deity Holder, who can imprison souls in her jar for up to seven years (eg GS p160). With powerful enough magic, you may even be able to bind the spirit of a defeated foe to work for you (eg as Hwarin Dalthippa did to Gwythar Longwise, or Yara Aranis did to First Slave), though this may be more a thing a hero does to you. 
    And bear in mind even according to RAW, some heroic shamans can recover from a killing blow *in a Strike Rank*. It would be quite unsurprising if Heroes like Ethilrist are capable of the same. I suspect you really want to have much more than mere physical weapons to even get them to stay dead - try things like attacking their mind or sanity (Madness or Mind Blast) to prevent them acting, attribute damage (eg Tap, disease, various exotic spells and spirits and weapons and poisons), wounds that resist healing (eg Seal Wound), mind control/compromise etc (Dominate, Fear, etc) for at least long enough to strike, and most such things probably just disable them for long enough for you to try and remove their magical defences and hold off their allies for long enough to try a real finishing move, like capturing their spirit. Often all you can manage is to hit them in a way that causes them to leave the field, like a bad Seal Wound injury or a Mind Blast, especially if their allies are still active. 
     

    I think that there may be some means of tying a hero, even a kaelith, to their body, such that then chopping it up and seaparating it prevents them returning until it is united, as was done to Nysalor. But I don’t know much about, other than it seems to be a way of seriously disposing of the very magical. Even this is probably not enough to prevent return via Lightbringers Quest.

    Other methods of disposing of a hero are feeding them to dragons or Chaos monsters, but this is often inviting an even worse problem. It did pretty devastatingly eliminate many heroes over the centuries. 

    6 hours ago, HreshtIronBorne said:

    If you are a heroquestor yourself you may be able to follow his soul into hell or guide it to a specific place where he DOESN'T know the way out anymore.

    True, and lying in wait for them in a vulnerable place in the heroplane as Jar-Eel did to Belintar. 
    You don’t even need to Heroquest yourself - Fazzur got his magicians to open a gateway to Lunar hell, and tossed Hofstaring Treelaper in there directly. 
     

    It’s also worth noting that not all heroes can return from the underworld in this way. A well known example is Rastalulf of the Vanak Spear - though he has literally been to the underworld and returned before, when he is killed by Lokomayadons men, he does not return, probably because of the doom he accepts from Alaramsor when he accepts the Vanak Spear, and instead Alaramsor retrieves the spear. 

    Very common example might be Humakti, who I think would often regard this as violating their oath. An Illuminated Humakti could do it, though I can think only of Arkat and Yanafals Tarnils in this category, and they might still regard it as dishonourable. 

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  25. The other possibility for the White Horse troop would be that the6 are associated with Galana, the Ralian Sun Horse goddess, though the horses associated with her are generally golden not white. 

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