davecake

On 4/17/2023 at 10:03 PM, Peter Hart said:

David's answer above makes sense - when you drain POW from a victim then some of that may be available to the vampire/DiD to sacrifice to gain runes and techniques and so forth. If you need a mechanism to do that how about saying that when the vampire/DiD makes a touch attack against an opponent then when they are matching magic points against magic points to overcome then a special success takes one point of characteristic POW from the victim and a critical success takes the entire 1D4 points of characteristic POW from the victim. This POW remains in a pool and can be used to sacrifice for runes and techniques and other times when the Vampire/DiD needs characteristic POW such as making enchantments et al.

While there is nothing wrong with that as a house rule, the Vivamort cult writeup in the preview suggests draining POW requires the victim to be Entralled, occurs simultaneously with blood drinking, and for it to take place in a ritual context, usually one that results in the full draining and death of the victim, as well as the destruction of their soul via POW drain. And the POW be used at the time (usually resulting in most of it wasted). Casting Create Vampire with the drained POW on the victim for them to rise as a new vampire is a special case.
So that gives a reason for the vampire to capture victims and abduct them, which of course gives opportunity for tense plots as you try and rescue abducted victims before they are consumed and the vampires evil plans succeed (or at least the vampire gets a bit more powerful somehow). 

Personally I find the separation of Vampire and Dancers in Darkness in the Bestiary a bit annoying. DiD are vampires in the Delecti tradition, and subservient to him. But they are a variant subset of vampires, not a separate class of being. 
I think the DiD, essentially vampires whose abilities are restricted to those that Delecti wishes to teach them (whether it is because he wishes to keep them weak relative to himself, or whether he does only teaches them abilities directly useful to his own schemes, or both). This shows us that turning to smoke, Enthrall, magic point draining and blood draining are intrinsic to vampirism, but not perhaps turning to bats or wolves. I’d rewrite these as commonly known vampire magic to gain these additional forms, or at least give a mythic explanation for why those two forms, and give some explanation for how individual vampires can gain other forms. The wolves and bats thing specifically is not a traditional part of vampire lore, but codified in Victorian literature - I’d rather have Gloranthan vampire lore be more variant. 

In any case, I think both should be regarded as stop gaps that would be written differently if the Vivamort cult writeup was available. It mentions cult special Rune Magic, for example, which I don’t think exists in the Vivamort writeup (meaning the benefits of Vivamort initiation beyond not being eaten are more nebulous). Hopefully there will be more info when the Chaos cults book is out. 

I’d note that part of the Guide to Glorantha kickstarter that was never fulfilled, even minimally, was the stretch goal for a monograph on vampires by Mark Rein*Hagen. While I don’t care much about the writer, I regret that a chance to expand vampires beyond the Bela Lugosi clones of Cults of Terror 30+ years ago was missed. 

12 hours ago, Joerg said:

Mainly in how they approach them magically and what senses and magical means they use to perceive them. (Even a theist's identification with a mythical entity may be based on incomplete or even faulty understanding.)

Yes. 
though the details here are constantly blurred at the edges. 
 

12 hours ago, Joerg said:

During the Hero Wars / HeroQuest 1 era, Greg meant to make the Three Different Otherworlds and how the difference between them gets overcome a major element of the Hero Wars, but that somehow failed to excite the majority of the fans

 

Personally, what really bothered me was the lack of providing a sensible way to deal with the many examples of traditions that already blurred those edges. It was difficult enough to deal with dividing all traditions into three rigid categories, but I hated the idea that existing, perfectly functional appearing traditions that had been in Glorantha for decades (eg Waha) needed be sort of split down the middle to maintain the Three Worlds model. If this was the intentional creation of a newly perceived problem so that it’s solution could be a plot element, that does not endear it to me any more.

I have always found the various traditions that cross the approaches (Waha, Aldrya, Kygor Litor, Black Arkat, Lhankor Mhy, Irripi Ontor, Dormal, Earth Witch,Jakaleel,  Pamalt, etc) to be a strength of the setting, refusing to make universal rules for magic and spirituality. I find the (admittedly not huge) extent to which it has been toned back from particularly the HQ2 era (eg the removal of spirit capture tradition from Odayla, Kolat downgraded from a rich shamanic tradition to a dull spirit cult, Storm Bull explicitly being a mixed tradition) a bit disappointing, but it might yet be reversed. 

21 hours ago, hipsterinspace said:

would agree that many heroes and all superheroes are illuminated: heroquest to enough strange places and things probably start to move in that direction, especially with the dangerous, experimental kind that Jar-eel and Harrek are both said to be very adept at. I don’t know whether that would be the source of their immunity to most magic, I’d think it’s more that they exist so fully on the other side that most magic doesn’t really touch them, but it certainly helps with navigating otherwise fraught mythic relationships to find new powers.

Illumination itself is not enough to get anything like the immunity to magic that a superhero has. But Illumination does provide some potential immunity to attempts to force a hero to either abide by the myths of their god (forcing them into an untenable position) or be greatly weakened, a sort of maneuver I think often used in heroic contests (for example, when the Red Emperor defeated the Harsaltar of the Household of Death). It lets them deal with attempts to turn their own cult against them (as the Orlanth priests did to Alakoring, and there are several examples from Dara Happan history), and it lets them control their own most passions when they would lead them astray or cause them to give into fear. 

And I think there is more to mysticism than what we know as Illumination. Illumination itself is just the entry into mystic magic - similar to the way becoming a shaman is just the entry to shamanic magic. And we mostly see Illumination from the perspective of cultures that have limited understanding of it, and have not really developed it. 
Beyond Illumination lies access to magic learnable only by Illuminates (such as Red Goddess magic, or potentially Dragon Magic by non-Dragonewts, the great mystic feats of the East Isles mystics, etc), otherwise impossible combinations of magic (eg sorcerer-shamans), very broad Rune magic access (even without embracing the ‘Dark Side’ - eg Lunars in the LCM embracing ‘multiple phases’ which I take to be wielding the magic of multiple Lunar cults without penalty, or Larstings having access to a wide range of Movement magic), access to other worlds not available to others, etc. Immunity to some magics is known to be a typical power of some mystics (eg the kolathi in Lunar history). 
This doesn’t really conflict with the idea (from the guide pg 9) that mysticism itself has little magic, and that mostly of interest only to the mystic - most of these examples are either quite passive, or about how Illumination radically transforms the practice of other forms of magic. 

20 hours ago, hipsterinspace said:

Jar-eel, on the other hand, has her own Glowspot, something shared with the Silver Shadow of the Red Goddess and the Crimson Bat, making her both a powerful magician in her own right and greatly increasing the power of all Lunar magic in her presence.

I think Jar-Eel has, in addition to, of course, full access to the magic of the Red Goddess (Glowspot, empowered spirit magic), access to all the magic of the Seven Mothers and other Lunar cults, directly and through her close companions, including shamanism through Jakaleel and sorcery through Irripi Ontor. This does not mean she is a sorcerer (though she probably is, because she is good at everything), but that she has sorcerous long term spells on her, sorcerous relics of great power, sorcerous assistants, and probably sorcerous magical allies. But it’s a sideline, compared to her massive mastery of sorcerous Rune magic - through which she gains abilities like manifesting extra arms from Yara Aranis, a huge array of Lunar spirits on call, Mind and sanity blasting powers, access to all elements but Storm, etc. And that’s all before we get to her own array of Heroquest powers, which of course is enormous. 

20 hours ago, hipsterinspace said:

though Arkat was, and if anyone had mastered all forms of magic it was probably him in his final form, if not as an illuminated mistress race troll (who are said to have sorcerer-shaman-priestesses among their number).

Arkat was, of course, a sorcerer as a Man of All, and a significant enough sorcerer to have created multiple spells, and his own school of sorcery, the Black Arkat cult. And of course Illuminated, and a member of multiple cults, including Orlanth, and seemingly a hero of the Humakt cult (and numbering another Humakti Hero, Makla Mann, among his close companions). Whether or not he was a shaman (it’s not recorded that he was AFAIK, and he doesn’t appear to have associated with any shamanic tradition before becoming a troll), he was (according to the Xeotam dialogues) a kaelith - as someone who returned bodily from the Underworld after death, he was able to dissolve his body and enter the spirit world naturally, so capable of feats otherwise only achievable by shamans or by using the Discorporation spell, and without the need for a fetch to guard his body. He may have gained a fetch as a troll later. 

The trolls of Guhan are said to include Mistress Race trolls who are the daughters of Arkat when he was a troll, and I am sure they are generally both honored as great troll shaman-priestesses of Kygor Litor (as Mistress Trolls usually are) and fully initiated into their fathers mysteries (and thus Illuminated sorcerers, and heroquesters). They are said to dwell in the troll city of Buruzronkurz particularly. As Mistress Race trolls are immortal, they are likely around a thousand years old - and of course, they may have descendants since. Confusingly these, the actual Children of Arkat, seem to be a different group than the Wizard Children, who are the trolls who are the descendants of the First Hundred trolls who followed and fought with Arkat in Dorastor and returned to Ralios with him afterwards, who certainly number sorcerers and Illuminates and shamans among them, but it is unknown if they include immortal Mistress Race. I think sorcery was unknown to trolls prior to Arkat, and probably few of the ancient Mistress Race learnt it since, apart from maybe those few (like maybe Garazaf Hyloric) who associated with Arkat during his life. Outside Guhan the Black Arkat sorcery school seems to be more closely associated with the Argan Argar cult. 

20 hours ago, hipsterinspace said:

Harder to say with the Seven Mothers, they fully apotheosized after reassembling the moon, but certainly most of them were also prolific heroquesters given their accomplishments.

I don’t think any of the Seven Mothers have Superhero status. But seven Heroes is pretty significant fire power, at least equivalent to a Superhero in collective heft. 
I know there are some advocate for Yanafals being a Superhero based on his defeat  of Humakt, but I don’t think it’s that simple. 

On 4/7/2023 at 6:41 AM, John Biles said:

Cragapider is the Superheroine of the Darkness Rune, Jar-Eel of the Harmony rune, Harrek of the Death rune, and so on.  Given his Draconic links, Argath arguably becomes Superhero of the Dragon Rune. 

The idea that a superhero corresponds to a Rune is one that Sandy has mentioned a few times, but it isn’t canon, and I don’t believe it myself, and there isn’t that much evidence for it. Jar-Eel, for example, is as much known for violent deeds and military conquests as ones embodying Harmony - its hard to justify killing Belintar or leading the assault on Boldhome as harmonious. And other known Superheroes (Arkat, Androgeus, Sheng Seleris) end up getting assigned fairly arbitrary Runes. 
 

And Cragspider isn’t a Superhero, and is notable far more for her Fire powers. 

On 4/17/2023 at 9:41 AM, Harry the Dirty Dog said:

A Superhero is someone who has used option 3 to create something new on the Heroplane.  They have carved out a myth in their own name.  They have created a new story on the heroplane as themselves. 

Again, while it’s a cool idea, it doesn’t seem to fit all of even the small number of Superheroes we know about - Jar-Eel has been an incarnation of the Red Goddess since birth, or at least childhood, and it’s hard to think of any notable myths that she has created independent of being an avatar of the goddess. 
 

I do think Heroes and Superheroes power levels always represent not just themselves but their close companions, magic allies, web of supporters, etc. 
 

I don’t think it’s defining, but one thing I do think is true of all Superheroes but not all Heroes - they are capable (either directly, or via their close companions or magic allies ) of heroic level feats dealing with all four forms of magic/all four other worlds,  including being Illuminated and having significant mystic ability, though not necessarily by the conventional method. They have no magical ‘weak points’, are able to deal with dragons etc in part using mystic means, and need not acknowledge the gods as their superiors. 

(yes, I know Harrek doesn’t come across as an Illuminate or mystic, but he did spent enough time in the Lunar Empire and learning to deal with Lunar Magic that he was able to kill the Emperor, and he then proceeds to kill his own deity, which seems a very Illuminated act. He has sorcerous capabilities through his companions (including Gunda) and through looting several great sorcerous treasure troves, though it seems unlikely he is a sorcerer himself (and Western heroes tend to be talars/men-of-all more than zzaburi anyway - heroic sorcerous magical feats need not mean being a great sorcerer, but dealing with the sorcerous otherworld effectively). With Jar-Eel and Arkat, it is pretty much canon that they are able to deal with a very wide range of types of magic, I can’t think of other Superheroes we know about their career in that much detail)

I’ve played it as no use of Orlanth or Ernalda Rune Points, or access to their spells from associated cults. 

Vampires can use both normal sorcery, and Vampire magic which is a form of sorcerous ritual that involves draining blood and sacrifice. Vampire magic is all based on Ecstatic Communion - the victims is enthralled and then ritually drained, a method that allows draining the raw POW as well as blood - and the some of the POW thus drained can be used for Vampire magic. They can use this POW to master Runes and Techniques, to perform the magic that the Vivamort cult had access to back in RQ2 (like creating ghouls, zombies, summoning small shades, etc), and some other more unique powers, including some that are known to Delecti and his Dancers In Darkness, but not all vampires. 
Vampires use sorcery as their main non-ritual magic. Though vampires can have Rune Points, they usually can’t regenerate them or gain more. 
I suspect draining rune spells of others, as vampires did in earlier editions, is a Vampire magic ritual known only to certain vampires. 
But you can use the vampire magic idea to make vampires with cool vampire powers that you want to adopt from other sources/games if you want, along with custom sorcery. 

On 3/28/2023 at 2:52 PM, hipsterinspace said:

Gustbran isn’t the spirit of kilns and forges, he’s the god of kilns and forges.

Sure. A god who commands and rules over spirits. And can be approached through a spirit cult if necessary. The division between gods and great spirits is largely one that mortals make. 
 

On 3/28/2023 at 2:52 PM, hipsterinspace said:

I would imagine most big kilns and forges would house the guild’s wyter or a similar community spirit in them rather than the allied spirit of a single member.

Imagine what you like, but forges in general are not capable serving a whole temple worth of crafters, and when I said the forge/kiln spirit was likely an allied spirit of the priest/guild master, I was taking that directly from the draft Gustbran write up.

On 3/28/2023 at 7:17 PM, Squaredeal Sten said:

It's an efficiency issue: If it is the priest's allied spirit then when the priest dies its gone. 

Yes, and when a new priest is appointed they get a new spirit. A wyter would imply only one spirit for every community, a community large enough for a wyter will be one large enough to have many forges and kilns. I would assume a city has multiple forges and kilns, and multiple master craftsmen, each usually with several journeymen/assistants and apprentices, but at most one cult wyter. 
And a forge spirit that is not actively connected to a priest as an allied spirit might still be summonable with Command Cult Spirit. It doesn’t cease to exist when the priest dies, just ceases to be an allied spirit. 

Shamanism isn't opposed to urbanism.

Rather, priestly worship without shamanism is advantaged and empowered by urbanism - large urban centres means big temples, it means practical mundane support of a dedicated priesthood, it means powerful cult spirits and permanent temple buildings and all the rest, it means enough worshippers of minor gods to maintain a permanent temple can find each other. Shamans  have nothing against cities in the abstract (I mean, some, like hsunchen, do, but some are fine in cities), but they do tend to get outcompeted, and aren't as needed. And stable temples and priesthoods put their stamp on the magical landscape just as agriculture and urbanism put their stamp on the physical - animist spirits that the local temples support and favour thrive, yes, but the ones that they do not know how to deal with usefully they will tend to drive out or constrain, and this in turn reduces the need for shamans. But they aren't absolutes, so a few shamans survive - mostly ancestor worshippers who deal with spirits of Man, but not only them. 

This is also not a hard distinction - while cults in RQ are presented in their current form, and some are distinctly anti-shaman in their current form, that has at least as much to do with the social context in which they exist. Dara Happen Yelmic noble-priests probably think shamanism is a backwards practice of barbarians, but Pentan Yelm/Yu-Kargzant worshippers have shamans at the core. And some shamanic traditions intermingle with cults, like Earth Witches among the Ernalda cult. Shamans can be found in cities, but thrive where there aren't cities, because they are more needed there. 

On 2/23/2022 at 11:05 AM, Ironwall said:

In the game six ages an event you get is the spirit of your clans pottery kiln is upset so if pottery kilns can have spirits I can see a shaman having a place in cities 

But in 'modern' Glorantha, Gustbran is the spirit of the kiln as well as the forge, and initiates of Gustbran are also the guild members of the smiths and potters guilds, and that gives them enough initiates to maintain a temple in the city, and the spirit of the kiln is probably the allied spirit of the guild master, who is also a priest. Animism is kind of part of the whole bronze age world view, and is distinct from shamanic traditions. 

On 2/14/2022 at 4:27 PM, metcalph said:

The Eastern Isles (possibly Dream Magicians)

I don't think the Dream Magicians are shamans, though there may be some connection.

But the East Isles absolutely does have shamans, quite a few. We know of 'the School of the Dead, the Talk to the Grandparents School, the Ancestor Worshippers, and the Vulture People, who are morticians'. '[The Great Shaman] Festanur’s people are the necromancers, spirit speakers, medicine people, and controllers of elemental spirits.' So they seem mostly interested in ancestor worship, and dealing with the dead, with a minority of elemental spirits. 

I think in typical East Isles style, many of the other inhabitants often regard them as just a particularly magical profession. Oh, you have trouble with ghosts? Go see the shaman, his office days are Windsday through Godsday. And in just as typical East Isles style, any generalisation about the Isles may prove to be false for any given Island, and many of the Posandpara, the small island gods, are worshipped in shamanic style. Plus many of the Parloth, the East Isles gods, may have few temples and worshippers and often must be worshipped spirit cult style. 

I don't think this means there are that many shamans in big urban centres in the East Isles, but thats mostly because the East Isles doesn't have that many big urban centres. 

On 2/14/2022 at 4:27 PM, metcalph said:

The Kralori (some draconic paths, like Daruda, may be shamanic in origin) plus there's also the worship of the Hungry Ghosts to keep them quiet.

A really large proportion of the peasantry are descended from Hsunchen and keep some shamanic traditions going. Loads of shamans among the Hsunchen hill tribes, and traditions descended from hsunchen shamanism exist, like the Dancing Spirit Doctors of Hanjan province (of the Korgatsu tradition). And we know of a few others - the Red Hats of Hongguan, for example. 

Very notably, though, the practical basis of Kralorelan urban civilisation mythically comes from Ancestor worship. Ebe the Wild Man is the progenitor of mortal races, with the Man and Spirit runes - eg he is Grandfather Mortal and Daka Fal, he is ancestor worship shamanism. But his son is Aptanace the Sage, founder of civilisation, and his 700 descendants the ancestors of the Kralorelan people. I think this is mainstream religion for the urban people, most of the people in the artisan and crafter occupations at least, maybe most of the traders too - you revere your ancestors, this is Ancestor Worship through mostly methods of simple worship, mostly you can chat to your ancestors on the holidays, mostly you claim descent from one or more (of course there is intermarriage, and probably adoption too) of the 700 ancestral family lines, and this also give you your inherited profession and some magic to do with that. And most families have no need of a shaman for regular worship of the ancestors - but they need them often enough that shamans exist in the cities and can be contacted for problems with the dead, dealing with angry ancestors, and various spirit plagues (including, as you say, the Hungry Ghosts). 

And sure, Darudism is the great sinews of Empire and the magic that gives them Exarchs and the Emperor, and in turn may be descended from ancient dragon hsunchen, though I think that connection is a deeply obscured one these days - though of course perhaps profound mythical and magical secrets are hidden in that (officially ignored) connection. It seems dragon magic is for mystic monks and hermits and for martial artists, and the mandarins and other elites are largely sorcerous. 

On 3/26/2023 at 1:38 AM, mfbrandi said:

A hawk from a handsaw, fine, but would you trust a Gloranthan to know a bat from pterosaur?

I see only a hummingbird. 

On 2/24/2023 at 6:27 PM, Joerg said:

may be seen as a form of austerities meant to lead to illumination.

I do not think austerities lead to Illumination in a general sense, and definitely not when they are neither a real austerity (if they were, curing the disease would make it worthless or worse) or known to those suffering. 

On 2/24/2023 at 6:27 PM, Joerg said:

A logical choice then would have been Storm Bull rather than Humakt,

Trolls, collectively, have access to better Chaos fighting powers than Storm Bull alone, and are far less of a blunt instrument when fighting sophisticated intelligent Chaos foes - not just ZZ, but Counter Chaos from KL (perhaps the valuable spell there is when fighting powerful Chaos foes), plus assorted things like Boztakangs Stones to Kill Chaos. And hey, Storm Bull is associated to ZZ, so you still call on him somewhat. And of course Darkness powers are handy against a Light god and allies. I think Arkat knew what he was doing. 

On 2/24/2023 at 6:27 PM, Joerg said:

 

On 2/24/2023 at 12:15 PM, davecake said:

But he turns away from them, and afterwards is said to without perfidy.

He does not betray them

I did not say he betrayed them, but he turned away. He honored his agreements with the trolls, continued to honor and respect them. But he was no longer a troll, did not seem to spend time leading the trolls but remaining on his farm. The path of Darkness was not his path once he no longer needed it. 

Yes, the big announcement celebrated a Chaosium internal milestone, not a public one, and I think all the efforts to hype it was setting us up for disappointment - all that customers got today was a partial publication schedule, and the promise of more in a few months. 

On 2/20/2023 at 11:09 AM, John Biles said:

while Arkat and Argath just didn't care about anything except revenge.

I don’t think that is it. Arkat is not seeking revenge. He believes that Nysalor is a problem, a threat to all that is good, that can only be solved by Nysalors destruction. He does not seek further revenge against the allies of Nysalor etc. 

And Argrath. He starts on his journey due to revenge oaths maybe, but I don’t think that is what drives him. But every 600 years there is a threat to the world, and now it is his turn. 

A thought - whether Arkat ever embraces Chaos (and I tend to think he did not, but admit the ambiguity is open), what is clear is that he began as devoted to Law, and his greatest weapons where those of the Law (his Unbreakable Sword, soon after embracing Hrestoli sorcery) and by the end of his journey had absolutely rejected allegiance to Law and rejected the Law/Chaos dichotomy. I think this applies no matter your conception of the Law. 

On 2/17/2023 at 9:17 AM, mfbrandi said:

I think it is the apparently unmotivated hatred for Chaos — as opposed to having enemies who happen to be chaotic — that is the hook.

It’s notable that when Arkat first goes to war against Nysalor/Niebie, it’s because of their deception - presenting themselves as saviors when they are the creators of the problem. He may not have even realised how deep the connection to Chaos went at first. And in his early battles (eg Night and Day) Nysalor seemed to no obvious connection to Chaos at all. 
Though Chaotic allies of Nysalor certainly surfaced pretty early (the Vampire Kings of Tanisor the Telmori), it seems that Nysalor turns to Chaos more as Arkat presses him, and Arkat turns to anti-Chaos more (in his turn to the trolls, who have the greatest anti-Chaos powers). But he turns away from them, and afterwards is said to without perfidy. And he names his enemy Gbaji, Deceiver. 

I think to Arkat, deception is Nysalors original sin, more than Chaos even, and unforgivable when dealing with the most sacred matters. 

On 2/17/2023 at 6:33 AM, scott-martin said:

Arkat by definition disrupts the magicosocial fabric and leaves nothing new in its place.

Not according to the trolls, obviously, or the Arkat cults. But it is true that Illuminates can not be trusted to respect power, and are often resented by the powerful everywhere. 

On 2/17/2023 at 6:26 AM, Jeff said:

As the trolls say, once Arkat became a troll there was no perfidy or betrayal in him. His true self brought the balance of living peace.

And it’s worth noting that while most of Arkats Orlanthi and Humakti followers felt betrayed, some of them stuck with him to the very end. Notably, Makla Mann was renowned for this, and is revered as the epitome of loyalty, and is still a widespread hero cult. He teaches Stop Resurrection, handing for fighting vampires but also those that might break their Humakti vows because they fear death. 
(if there is a place that an Arkati secret society would be hiding within the Humakt cult, this would be an obvious place, apart from the very nature of the sub-cult making it beyond suspicion, or so they say, right?)

On 2/21/2023 at 3:45 PM, Darius West said:

Why else do you think there is that whole Book of Legalisticus that has all those dietary restrictions if not to keep ones digestive process pure and logical, without contradiction, or hinderance, and properly regular and regulated? 

You must be one of those Rokari, who only likes the Sharp Abiding Book that you there is one way to do things. In the true Abiding Book, Malkion only recommends fish, he does not mandate it, and he blesses the relish, that are foods might contain a variety of flavors and bring us joy. 
(both actually in the Abiding Book according to RM, and that’s actually the second way I’ve found to work Malkion blessing the relish into the Malkioni world view, as I think it is also a refutation of those who would practice asceticism in the name of Logic). 
Though Logic dictates hygiene and rejection of foods that are known to be inimical, or imbalance in consumption, I do not think it rejects choice and flavor. (The Furlandan school is a big influence on Loskalmi culture, and though ostensibly about defending against demons, has a great deal of practical advice about hygiene. I think of Loskalm physical culture as quite Scandinavian, mixed with Plato’s Republic of course, a fondness for indoor gymnasiums with saunas). 
 

On 2/18/2023 at 9:22 PM, Joerg said:

The limitation of the Young Elementals to Darkness, Water, Earth and Fire either suggests that this was the entire list of pre-designed elements (the absence of a Bronze caste of Mostali, with a Brass caste as one of the three derivations of the Tin caste instead, seems to support this)

The classifications of the Mostali caste are not a classification of the elements of the world (obviously), but of the tools used to repair it. But this does indicate a Mostali unfamiliarity with a post-Storm cosmology, and how to use Storm effectively? They do seem to use bellows though (and, you know, breathe). 

On 2/17/2023 at 6:19 AM, mfbrandi said:

How does one motivate anti-Chaos fanaticism in an illuminate? Rummage in your bag of possible stronger beliefs.

    Chaos is neither evil nor inimical but I will root it out and destroy it because …

Chaos before the cosmos, or outside it, is not evil or inimical. One way to reconcile this is a sort of militant mysticism - Chaos is good if it remains outside the Cosmos, and you should seek contact with the Void by transcending mortality, but evil and inimical when it leaks into the cosmos. This seems a kind of Kralorelan approach. But that seems a bit of a glib answer to the implied question of Arkat’s motivation. 

Chaos is both Kajabor (entropy) and Wakboth (moral evil). To struggle against Kajabor is the condition of mortality, is life, but to hope to destroy it is delusional. The answer to Kajabor is Rashorans answer, to cease to fear the Great Fear. 
But instead to take that fear and encourage it, to use it as a weapon for empower one’s hatred, that is Wakboth, that is the true root of moral evil, and it must be destroyed, because otherwise it will spread and destroy all. 
Arkats core philosophy can be understood as, at the core (though of course he goes past this point) as Humakt post-Rashoran - we must accept entropy and death and reconcile ourselves and not fear the Great Fear, but we must destroy those who succumb to moral evil, and embrace the Great Fear for their own greed, ambition and hatred. And Gbaji embraces those who do that, and must be destroyed. 
 

ETA: the Mostali probably do think that they should eventually eliminate entropy, but it’s a very late stage in repair of the World Machine. 

On 12/6/2022 at 11:04 AM, Erol of Backford said:

I have to ask... what Gold Wheel Dancer does Isidilian have? Also would the Gold Wheel Dancers not also be Brithini and could they be "fire Dwarves" or related to them even though they are fire versus earth? is that correct?

Everything I've ever seen suggests the Gold Wheel Dancers are their own independent race. But they certainly aren't Brithini. The idea that Gold Wheel Dancers are beings made of living Gold, and thus predate the death of Stone etc could work pretty well, though! Or that they have similar powers of self-transformation as Diamond Dwarves, that by transforming parts of themselves into useful tools Diamond Dwarves are just partially emulating the Gold Wheel Dancers, who can transform their entire selves into useful tools. 

The question then becomes why aren't there ancient races of other living metals! Maybe not all wheels, but beings of living Quicksilver or Lead or Copper?

On 12/7/2022 at 4:54 PM, JRE said:

I suspect Ginkizzie and Flintnail have some similar arrangement, a worldly dwarf with access to a True Mostali.

Regardless of their nature, they only co-existed for a short time, with Ginkizzie only being born after most of the great deeds of Pavis and Ginkizzie were over, and Flintnail departing soon after (unless there is a conspiracy theory here that Flintnail did not depart, but is secretly still around, perhaps in the Room Without Doors).