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metcalph

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metcalph last won the day on May 8

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About metcalph

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    Great Sage Equal to Heaven

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    Gloranthan dabbler
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    Christchurch, New Zealand
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    Keeper of the Glorantha Wikia

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  1. The Fiscal Anarchists were actually in the Genertela Book (p28 - Rare Tripolis Events). The Secret Police are first mentioned in Troll Gods p6 while the Spoken Word, the Entalothosium and the Kastokus still survive in the current canon (Coming Storm has references to all three).
  2. metcalph

    Umathela and Brithini

    I should correct myself. There *is* a Brithini migration of 632 ST of which some of the migrants went south of Jrustela to unknown destinations (Middle Sea Empire p12, Revealed Mythologies p53 although it's dated a few years later). So they were around to be known to the Sedalpists.
  3. metcalph

    Umathela and Brithini

    There isn't much. Basically she's mentioned as Malkion's daughter and that's the sum of it (I was going to cite Revealed Mythologies but she is not mentioned there!). The Daughters of Menena are engaging in revisionist heroquesting with their interpretation of her.
  4. metcalph

    Umathela and Brithini

    The Sedappists have more than one caste which distinguishes them from being Brithini Talars. Likewise Menena is part of Malkioni mythology and not just the exclusive property of the Brithini. The strongest Brithini connection to Umathela would be that the Vadeli, their bitterest enemies, are there. So in order to be strong against the Vadeli, one tens to adopt Brithini values.
  5. metcalph

    Heroes to Superheroes

    Only if there is a distinct class of hero that could objectively distinguished from the rank-and-file hero in some manner other than "able to kick the living crap out of them six times before breakfast". The attunement to the infinity rune that was mentioned in RQ2 has been replaced by illumination (and is a much better fit, I dare say). In White Bear and Red Moon, Superheroes essentially had the following powers: Invulnerability to chaotic, spirit and adverse exotic magic. Able to protect other units from hostile magics. Immunity to fighting in adverse terrain. Better heroic escapes. Best Friends. None of these powers requires the superhero to be qualitatively different from an ordinary hero. They are powers an ordinary hero could have yet the superhero is able to do them on the battlefield. Hence while Harrek and JarEel are still bigger and badder than everybody else, I do not see any need for a distinctive status to denote their status.
  6. metcalph

    Heroes to Superheroes

    I was asking about a replacement term for superhero. Demigod fails because it means a number of things besides that.
  7. metcalph

    Heroes to Superheroes

    HeroQuest Glorantha describes Illumination in this term and that seems likely to be carried over into RuneQuest Glorantha. Hence I do not believe Superherohood to be related to the Infinity Rune given that Argrath and the Red Emperor are illuminated but not superheroes. It is a category in ONE strategic board-game. Greg was referring to hero units in general, not just superheroes.
  8. metcalph

    Heroes to Superheroes

    It doesn't work as a replacement for Superhero because the Guide describes the following non-superheroes as demigods: A Great Tree p65 The Luatha p139 Cragspider p170 Ironhoof p171 Gold Wheel Dancers p189 The Red Emperor (HQG p19)
  9. metcalph

    Heroes to Superheroes

    Many terms have come and gone in glorantha (misapplied magic etc) and have not been missed. Superhero by my reckoning has been used in three or four texts 1) White Bear and Red Moon/Dragon Pass 2) RuneQuest 2 3) Arcane Lore and 4) the Redline History. White Bear and Red Moon was over forty years ago. Arcane Lore is a collection of documents some of which are quite old. It useful as an archeology of Greg's thinking throughout the ages more than anything else. The RuneQuest 2 rules mention is the Infinity Rune. It is described there as being "characteristic of gods, superheroes, and dragons only." (RQ2 p58). This text has been reused in HeroQuest Glorantha where it now reads "characteristic of gods, True Dragons, and those whose consciousness knows no limitations." (HQG p18). I daresay the description in the RQG will read the same. The Redline History mentions Yanafal Tarnils as a Superhero. The updated version in the Glorantha Sourcebook does not. As for people wanting to use the term superhero, I really have not seen a meaningful use for it nor have I seen anybody bothering to use it outside the question "Wot's a superhero?". Hence its usefulness is poor and that coupled with the wider associations of the term means that it will be one of the first things to go when Thanos snaps his fingers.
  10. metcalph

    Heroes to Superheroes

    Superhero is an obsolete term that hasn't been used for quite a while.
  11. metcalph

    Black sun / blood sun

    But its not actually correct My original statement is still correct. There are better ways of voicing disagreement than labelling things wrong. According to what source? They are still descended from Gebkaren and unlike Humakt they cannot sever the connection. Except that the Eastern Islanders in order to identify certain gods as antigods give them fictitious descents from Gebkeran which they do for Pamalt, Genert and Malkion. It may be misleading to you but it is how the Eastern Islanders classify their gods. See for example Prosandara who is described as the Goddess of the Animals of Above (Revealed Mythologies p74). See also the glossary for the contrasts between Imad and Ferezed. You are not clarifying anything that which is misleading. You are saying certain statements are wrong in a line-by-line rebuttal which inflames rather than enlightens. I don't care if you have a different interpretation of the material, you could have just responded to the original poster and giving your own views of the nature of antigods and allowed him to choose. My response was correct and helpful. Your debating style is not. But the Eastern Islanders do view their ontology as being the same as their ancestry! That's why Gebkaren is the Mother of the Antigods. Given that I've specifically stated descent from Gebkaren who is female the last time I looked, I fail to see why patrimony (descent from a male ancestor) should be relevant here. Govmeranen's mother is Yothenara, one of the Parloth. In the very myth of Govmeranen's origins (Revealed Mythologies p75), she points out that Dogsalu's nature has been changed. Dogsalu is rewarded with the love of Yothenara (which had previously been denied him) and three days later Govmeranen is born. Govmeranen is descended from the Parloth and so is a Parloth himself. All methods of magic were known everywhere. It is part and parcel of being a gloranthan. There is no difference between the original and modern meaning of antigod as the Eastern Islanders themselves use it. Yes, the genealogy of some antigods would be patently absurd but it works for the Eastern Islanders and that is all that it matters for them. As for why I point out the origin of the definition rather than the modern shorthand (Gods that oppose mystical awareness), it is to sever the erroneous assumption that antogods are chaotic or heavily tainted with chaos. and why the Eastern Islanders tolerate the presence of antigods and andins.
  12. metcalph

    Black sun / blood sun

    Rather than going through other people's explanations and risk adding nothing, you would be better off responding to the original question. My statement "The Anti-Gods are what people outside the eastern isles consider to be the Gods of Night and Below." is still correct. Vith has two wives - Laraloori who is associated with day and Gebkeran who is associated with night. From Laraloori came the Gods/Parlothi and from Gebkeran came the Antigods. That's the original division - the rest is theological development through mythology and history. I feel the Noble Wrongs were not among the original antigods but people and gods of neighbouring lands to Vithalash who contested with Vith. They were confounded and their lands became part of the Eastern Isles and at the same time interpreted as other parts of Glorantha. Their identification as antigods is the first modification to the original definition of antigods. I do not feel it meaningful to speak of a non-mystic magical path at this point of time when the Eastern Isles own mythology makes it clear that mystical introspection only really began much later in the late Golden Age (the Sages Rivalry). It also embeds the outdated HeroWars terminology in a particularly inelegant manner within glorantha. A better way to look at it would be to consider Vithelan mythology as revealed in Revealed Mythologies as being the end product of their theological development from the original Early Golden Age understanding of Vith being the progenitor of the Gods of Night and Day. Martalak for example would not be the god of Orthodox Sorcery but more likely IMO to be the God of a culture that lived in the west parts of Vithela (or even Teleos) which was noted for sorcery, alchemy and charm-making. It is only much later that he becomes synonymous with the Malkioni. Similarly for Festanur and Ombardaru. Later when the Sages started developing the foundations of their mysticism, they projected the unbalanced forms of magic (magic that precludes contact with Vith or Oorduren) as being the magic of the Noble Wrongs even though many of these practices may have been used by the original followers of Vith.
  13. metcalph

    Black sun / blood sun

    We might have to start listing references. Tyram and the Sky Terror do not appear in the Book of Heortling Mythology or King of Sartar. Tyram does appear in the Guide as: The Sky Tyrant is a name of Akorgat in revealed mythologies (p89, p93, p95 and p108). There is another mention of Tyram in the Belorden Fragments Belorden (a companion of Harmast) mentions that when Orlanth was in the same place, he saw the Sky Terror. Hence Tyram as a name entered Orlanthi mythology sometine in the Dawn Age from an unknown place. It's a deduction. Actually a fairly explicit statement of what was in either Lords of Terror or Drastic; Chaos but those are now post-canon. Tyram exists before the God Learners (cf the Belorden Fragments) but is only listed as someone's father as opposed to being an active god in his own right. The Guide reference is said to have come from the Notebook of Baldrus, the Black Reader of Belstos. Since Tyram shares an title with Akorgat and is largely unknown in Heortling mythology, blaming his potency on the God Learners seems an easy step.
  14. metcalph

    Black sun / blood sun

    Anti-Gods are not Chaotic Gods. The Anti-Gods are what people outside the eastern isles consider to be the Gods of Night and Below. The Gods opposing them, the Parloth, are the Gods of the Sky and Above. When Chaos came, many of the Chaos Gods were associated with Night and Darkness etc and so were classified as Anti-Gods. But Antigods are still not chaotic. Tyram is a Chaos God. He or she does not appear in revealed mythologies or Vithelan mythology as she or he is a God Learner deity (or even a God Learner construct). The God Learners were infamous for stitching together deities from many mythologies into one super-deity. So when Sandy said that Basko might be a part of Tyram, he is referring to this. The Uz worship of Basko is not chaotic. However a worshipper of Tyram might be able to access Basko's magics because of what the God Learners did. These people would be a) regarded as very evil by the human and uz worshippers of the Black Sun b) hunted down and slaughtered on sight or courted assiduously depending on their attitudes towards evil and c) proof of the God Learner's perfidy. The Black Sun claims to be the heir to the Blood Sun. The Blood Sun accepts this after the Black Sun saved them from killing themselves during the Gods War. The Blood Sun was originally the worship of the Sun with the rites of blood-letting and ritual dismemberment. Elements of it may be known elsewhere but it is only in the Kingdom of Ignorance that such a philosophy coalesed into a developed religion. In recent times, it has spread elsewhere to the Lunar Empire and the Eastern Isles. I think that with the rise of the Red Moon, the Blood Sun worshippers have re-interpreted it as the Blood Sun rather than the Sun itself. Similarly the Black Sun worshippers may interpret the Dark Side of the Moon as the real Black Sun. With the recent arrival of caravans from the Redlands, their madness has just gotten real.
  15. metcalph

    Glorantha technology and Glorantha material technology

    I prefer to use Mondator to describe the Artmali of Fonrit and reserve Kungatu for the Artmali of Tarien. True, Jarkaru claims to have conquered more than that but the only verifiable conquest is that of Tishamto. Mondator may have paid tribute to Kungatu or it may have been a distant part of the Kungatuan Empire. This doesn't obscure Kungatuan culture in Fonrit as Afati's people would have acquired some elements when they became annoited as New Artmali. How much they retained after the migration to Laskal is an open question as is the type of culture the Veldang of Fonrit had before their conquest by Garangordos.
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