vagabond

Turns out, this is the official rule from Elric!/SB5 - "Not more than once in a round per combatant, a critical parry allows a riposte to be made with the weapon (or shield) that didn't parry." I had forgotten that one could only riposte with a critical parry - that also lessens the chances of it happening. Ian

He's usually reading things here and at RPG.net, and responds fairly quickly, but I know he's been pretty busy lately - I believe he has a new day job, or has earned more responsibility. I'll see if I can ping him out of band. Ian

I recommend you reread HPL, especially Call of Cthulhu. There is plenty of weapon use, not successfully necessarily, but it is there. Many people's response to fear would be to fire away if they have some weapon at hand. Also, note that Delta Green and Classic Cthulhu differ significantly. I would sit down and make sure the players understand a few things: 1) This is the (whatever)th Century - certain laws apply (even in the case of modern Delta Green campaigns). Killing people is frowned upon by whatever officials are in control. Even if the PCs are trying to save the world, since we are dealing with Mythos stuff that everyday people cannot comprehend, trying to explain in a court of law that such and such cultist was going to bring about the end of the world if he wasn't stopped is oging to take a lot of convincing and evidence, and even that might not be enough. 2) When confronting any big bad nasties, weapons may be ineffective. If the players do not think of some great tactics, or better yet, alternative means of gaining the upper hand and overcoming obstacles in less direct ways, they should be prepared to "lose". The two players in question might be annoying in their "10% of the time balls out approach to combat", the first few times they lose and find out that such actions are not wise (again, whether they lose the fight outright, or have to face a judge or some other legal mess later), they will either quit the game, or learn to approach things differently. Either way, the situation should resolve it self. I am not by any means saying to forcefully make this point and target the players with such bad results, but if in the course of play it should happen, and they are previously made aware of the fact that it will (not can, will) happen, then you should be fine. Ian

BTW, just to play it straight here - I often "play to win" myself, and have participated in a very well run CoC campaign (yes, I said campaign) where we all "played to win". Playing to win may just mean that you are playing to succeed - we wanted to stop the cultists. It did not mean that we did not get engrossed in the atmosphere (we all very much enjoy HPL's tales), and we roleplayed to the hilt (I am, by education, an actor and my character was one as well, which I used to good measure to defeat the villain more than once). Perhaps, it should be noted, that playing to win, and getting into character and engrossed in the setting, are not necessarily mutually exclusive. Ian

In general, the purpose is to have fun - no qualifications necessary. That is first and foremost. Now, as to what "fun" is differs from person to person. So, for some, the "fun" of any game is "to win". That said, trying to "change" your players' concept of fun is not a great idea because, in all likelihood, it will lead to trouble. Your best bet is to lay out what your expectations are, and have everyone else involved lay out theirs. And, of course, you may find that what someone says and what they really mean are not the same. That's life. Don't try to dissuade the players in question from believing they can "win" - after all, the dice will land as they may, and they might end up winning ... this time. But, as long as you abide by the rules of the game, hopefully everyone will have fun at the beginning. It's the end where people may no longer have fun - but this is true of any game where PC death (or, in CoC's case, insanity) is a possibility. After all, WRT the players in question, surely in other RPGs they have met untimely PC death or have otherwise not "won". Ian

I believe this: is the correct interpretation, but you are ignoring one critical piece (and perhaps the wording could be better) - perhaps the troubling parenthetical point should be: (armor protects unless the attack/parry result originally ignored armor) As far as "normal" damage, I believe that means the damage as reflected in the matrix - i.e. it probably should read "full damage" as in the first point in the Wiki clarification regarding the matrix and the appropriate results applied accordingly. As always, I defer to Jason ... Ian

I'd have to dig it up, but I believe Elric!/Stormbringer 5th used this - at least superficially. If a character's Allegiance in a Force was high enough, they were "known" throughout the land, especially to character's allied with the opposing force. Ian

I fail to see the problem. The riposte rules are supposed to reflect the skill of a master swordsman, and your example definitely shows what happens when two such masters meet in a duel. Plus, with the cumulative -30% with each action, the next set of ripostes/parries occurs at 30%, the next at 1%. Which, again, models things well - one hole in the defense or mistake, and the fight is over. Optionally, you could always rule one riposte per opponent per round. So, player 1 hits, player 2 parries and ripostes, player 1 parries the riposte and turns a riposte back, and now player two can only parry since he already used his riposte. This gives the players a little bit of tactical choice since they can withhold their parry until they feel it is most advantageous to use it (i.e. when their opponent's parry has been lowered due to prior use, or their opponent has no ripostes left). Ian

And now for a skeleton. Using the average male human as an example, we have a weight of 36 lbs or 16.36 kg (assuming average human male is 180 lbs and bones weigh about 20% of total weight), an average STR of 10.5 (skeletons have 3d6 STR), and a height of 6 ft or 1.83 m. Plugging that info into my formula yields an average SIZ of 2.66. Now, that does fit with the theory that a skeleton is about 1/5 the weight of a human. However, again, we can consider that skeletons are magical creations, and that perhaps the bones, if not already calcified or fossilized already) have been magically treated to increase their density and make them more robust. Yes, it is a little hand-wavy, but we are talking undead skeletons here - the standard rules of physics should not apply. Doubling the calculated average SIZ to 6 (rounding the 2.66 up to 3) makes sense, and then doubling again for HP to get 12 seems reasonable (again, we're talking magical entities here). Ian

So, looking up the Chimera in the old d20 SRD, it says that the Chimera weighs 4000 lbs, has a length of nearly 10 feet, and 5 feet at the shoulder. Assuming a STR of 45 is appropriate (a normal tiger has a max STR of 30 in BRP), and dropping it into my formula, I get a SIZ of about 57. Ian

Well, my port of Jorune to BRP is obviously a mix of Skyrealms of Jorune and BRP, with some MRQ2, and other sources of inspiration tossed in. Ian

BTW, I miscalculated the Dhar Corondon. Using these values: Height and Length combined of 16.5m avg and 18m max SIZ of 8d6 + 40 for avg of 68 and max of 88 STR of 4d6 + 30 for avg of 44 and max of 54 yields 7832 kg for an average specimen, and 12058 kg for a large one. Ian

If you have access to the old Stormbringer RPG (1st - 4th), it had a table that cross referenced SIZ with thin, average, and heavy frames, to give you a better range of weights. IIRC, it worked out to +/-2SIZ, i.e. a female human with SIZ 13 could have the listed weight from anywhere between SIZ 11 and SIZ 15. But, I can run a 1.75m, 54.5kg, STR 13 woman through my formula, and it returns a SIZ of 8.3 which would put her at around 120 lbs or so which is what I started with. You can easily choose to round up a little to SIZ 9, which still gives 121 - 129 lbs, which is still reasonable. Ian

Actually, that seems like a very good guess. The old Avalon Hill Gloranthan Bestiary has a creature called the Rascullu. It is a centaur like creature, with a rhino's ower body, covered with a thick armor like hide. It is 3m high at the shoulder, and 5m up to the crown of its head. Since it only has two arms, it is a little shorter than a Dhar Corondon at 6.4m (it's actually 7 yards in the book). The SIZ for the rascullu is given as 6d6 + 30 for an average of 51 and max of 66. I could easily see adding another 2m to the height, and bumping the size up to suit so that it is 8d6 + 40 for an average of 68 and a max of 88. The rascullu has a given STR of 6d6 + 36, but its upper body is much bulkier, so I would guess that a Dhar Corondon's STR be somewhere around 4d6 + 30 for an average of 44 and max of 54. Plugging these numbers into my formula yields a mass of almost 9000 kg for an average specimen, and over 12800 kg for a large Dhar Corondon. Not bad given your estimates. Of course, I can solve for SIZ if mass is known. I'll get back to you on the chimera once I track down some more info. Ian

The Gloranthan Crimson Bat ... whatever ... Try the Crimson Xoar from Stormbringer - SIZ and CON of 128D8 for an average of 576 and a max of 1024. It does 100d8 with its horns, and its roar deafens anyone within a miles who fails a CONx3 roll, plus, for each point the player misses the CONx3 roll by, he takes a point of HP damage. Ian

As far as Chimeras needing to be lighter - 1) they are magical beasts and may not need to adhere to physics, and 2) I saw a great "documentary" on dragons where they had a bladder that they filled with gas from digestion which served the dual purpose of adding buoyancy and fuel for their flame. As far as the BGB's skeletons SIZ not meshing with what their mass should be - that's why relying solely on mass or solely on height/length can cause discrepancies. I'll have to plug in some numbers for skeletons into my formula and see how it turns out. Ian

With those thailiers and lightning blast dyshas, I don't think Kong has much of a chance. Ian

Yes, you are correct. What I should have said was I used the average (or, sometimes, max values) to determine either an average or a max size, and then take that value as a basis for an appropriate range. Ian

Hi Alan, Yes, one could use a given weight to find SIZ on the table, but the table does not really take into account frame. That was one of the things I liked about the SIZ table for PCs in Stormbringer 1st through 4th - it had variations due to frame. That is kind of the principle my formula works on - given STR and height/length, the "bulk" of the necessary mass can be derived. I then factor in weight to adjust for frame. The result is a pretty good representation of SIZ with respect to both mass and length. Like the Corondon (and Dhar-Corondon), many creatures have no definitive stats, so we must come up with educated guesses and extrapolations to determine appropriate values. I'll see what numbers I can dig up for the corondon, and run it through my formula. I have already used the formula for the various intelligent races, even modifying the known values for Corastin and Croid since the ones presented in the Sholari Pack did not seem right - Corastin were listed as weighing 450 lbs, but were 10.5 ft tall, and Croid were about 9 ft tall, yet weighed 400 lbs, and were said to be more massive. And then we have Bronth, who at 8 ft tall could weigh as much as 1000 lbs, and yet the Sholari Pack has them weighing much less. Mass-wise, Bronth are the most dense based upon the values given in the books, and the Corastin seem to have a similar build to the Boccord, but definitely weigh more since the Corastin taller and stronger. I believe I came up with something around 750 - 800 lbs for Corastin and Croid nearly hitting 1000 lbs (they should be about as massive as Bronth if not moreso). I'll have to dig up my notes. Since the Chimera's body is basically a large lion, we have something we can point to (average males in the wild seem to crest at almost 500 lbs, and the largest one in captivity was over 800 lbs). The goat's head it not going to impact any size estimations, but there would be some effort due to wings and dragon head. Either way, I have sufficient reference material to give me pretty decent values to plug in. I'll let you know what I come up with. Ian

I was actually working up a formula where, given STR, weight in kg and height (or length, whichever is the primary gauge for the creature's size), I can determine an appropriate SIZ. Basically, the formula looks at STR and height/length to determine a basic density, and then adjusts the result somewhat by examining the weight. In testing, it actually works out pretty well. If you post some examples (whether they exist in a BRP book or not), I can post some results to see how things compare/look. I originally used this for my Jorune conversion, and I have both a standard SIZ value as well as the "Mass Factor/Multiplier" I was going to optionally use. Ian

Depends on the game really. I can see Sci-Fi games needing more skills than a caveman one for example. And, it depends on the group - some want more skills, some want fewer. My default for fantasy/sword and sorcery and modern games is probably in the medium category. Ian

A real one is a real one, regardless if it is in print or not. Not according to the forum: We talk about BRP and all of its relatives ... Ian

I believe Stormbringer had no such concept. You could swing multiple times against the same opponent, and he could parry multiple times per round, suffering a -30% per attempt. It worked fine in play. Ian

I think it was an attempt to cut down on the number of skills. Elric! introduced weapon classes, got rid of separate attack and parry skills, and reduced unarmed combat to kick, punch and wrestle. So, wrestle encompassed grappling, greco-roman wrestling, and whatever else. However, I believe that the initial successful wrestle roll did not automatically indicate a take down. I believe a number of successes were necessary, and it may have also been one of the special maneuvers after the sequence of successful rolls. Ian

So, I thumbed through Elric! briefly (no pun intended) to see what it said WRT to Grappling and Wrestling. While there is no "Grappling" skill, the "Wrestling" skill covered the same area. The way Elric! (and Stormbringer 5) handled it, once you were successfully Wrestled (or Grappled) and held by an opponent, your opponent could do several things - disarm you, change positions, etc. However, if your opponent tried to either cause physical damage or knock you out, you could attempt a STR vs. STR roll to break free. This was in addition to your opponent needing to successfully roll his Wrestle skill each round to maintain control. Anyway, I would rule either STR vs. STR, STR vs. SIZ, DEX vs. DEX or DEX vs. SIZ would all be appropriate in one way or another to allow a Grappled/Wrestled person to attempt to escape. I agree that, in real life, one held by a superior grappler/wrestler, there really isn't much you can do (within the rules, and often outside the rules), that perhaps, while the attacker continues to roll against Grapple successfully to keep the hold, that the defender could still try to roll Grapple to, in effect, parry the success, but needs a better quality result, in which case the defender than can attempt one of the above "stat" challenges to break free (I would allow the defender to choose either STR or DEX as the active stat to reflect his choice to either overpower or worm his way out of a hold respectively), and then decide which is the better passive stat to roll against (STR vs. STR or STR vs. SIZ for overpower, or DEX vs. STR or DEX vs. DEX to wriggle out). Now, if the stat vs. stat roll succeeds, I would still say the attacker is in a position to attempt to grapple/wrestle again to regain the hold, maybe a free attack with some penalty, but no defense allowed since the defender would have exhausted his defense to allow himself to break free. Ian