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I find the RQ3 table, from SIZ 7 thru to SIZ 90, barring a typo or two, very logical. Each doubling of mass is worth +8 SIZ. You can even add with it. Two SIZ 30 objects = SIZ 38; four are SIZ 46 and so on. It's even possible to add different STRs together to get a total. It just not easy or intuitive. Few people can do power equations like 2^(1/8) in their head. That each SIZ is 9.05% larger than the previous one isn't easy math to do in your head. Yeah, i have. In fact I sort of did before BRP was release. IF I were to try and redo it from scratch I would probably: 1) Keep a doubling formula but try to use a fixed increase like +1 SIZ = Mass x1.1. That is almost a x2 mass= +7 STR. 2) I'd use the same formula at the high end too. It would help with big vehicles, like space cruisers, and make it easier to calculate SIZ values with a fomula rather than looking it up on a table. 3) A constant formula would make it easy to work out vehicle speeds using a STR-SIZ formula. (That's how I got into this in the first place). But, my goal, at least for now is to work with the table as is, limiting my changes to correcting typos, imperial/metric conversion errors, and what I think are math or cut & paste errors. That way people can use the table and know that the values are consistent in both systems of measurement. If I did a new table, people couldn't benefit for the math fixes without taking any problems that might arise from a whole new table. Besides, I can always try to "reinvent the wheel" later.

That is probably the reason for the different experiences. If the sorcerer doesn't do something it won't be a factor. Of course there are some cute tricks that the other mages can do (like a Storm Bull follower putting Lightwall up in front of some Trolls--the last ting anyone expects to see on the other side of a Lightwall.).

I7d fix that point well before 20 years (you've been running the same PCs that long). I'd say it happens about the point where the sorcerer: 1) Has at least a 15 INT 2) Achieved mastery level in his magic skills (intensity, duration, etc), and in his major spells. 3) Has a familiar (to free up that FreeINT) 4) Has access to stored POW at least equal to his own POW score. At that point the sorcerer should be able to out perform the other magicians. Especially in a day-in-day out long term basis. Where or not he actually does depends a lot on the player and how he plays the character. Sorcery rewards prep-work more that the other magics.

IF you can, please give me a little time to finalize the weights and masses for SIZ 225+. If it would help, I could put up my speed formula from my vehicle design rules. I'm trying to get it to the point where you can calculate a vehicles Move rating by it engine/powerplant rating, mass, and vehicle type (ground vehicle, aircraft, watercraft, submersible craft, spacecraft). And just to show that I'm doing something, here is a peak at how the Expanded SIZ table is looking. Entries in blue are table from the BRP rulebook, the rest from RQ3 (up to SIZ 88) or worked out by me using the increasing progression that seems to fit the data points from SIZ 96 to 224 (and possibly beyond).

I think the sorcery part is "more problematic that what can be dome by the other magicians of the same power level". For one thing, all the long term stuff is basically a freebie. It does take time and MPS to set up, but that replenishes much easier than Divine spells. So a sorcerer has this up in addition to whatever he can do during an encounter. Secondly, the other magics are more rididly defined and restricted. Spell progression is very straght forward, and character must learn/sacrifice for each point of effect. New magic start weak, and there is little chance of a spirit mage getting, say Bladesharp 12, without first getting a couple of lower strength versions first. Sorcery, however is limited by FreeINT, so just learning Damage Boosting allows the sorceror to cast any intensity up to his limit. Spell selection is also much better for the sorceror. Spirit and Divine mages are limited is what types of spells they can cast. That makes them more predictable and less problematic. Even a experienced Priest of Yelm, isn't going to have something like Darkwall. Quite a few of the sorcery spells have no analogues in Spirit or Divine Magic. Form/Set spells can be absolutely devastating if used by a clever sorcerer. So overall It think the sorcerer is more problematic once he reaches a certain level of skill. IMO, Spririt Mages start strong, but cap off in ability; Divine Mages start good, get some great effects, but progress slowly due to the need to sacrifice POW; sorcerers stat off pathetically weak, but slowly progress in ability until they gain pairity with and eventually surpass the other types of magician.

Nightshade, I agree that Glornatha is a big can of worms as far as the magic systems go. Even the shamen get access to divine magic thanks to cults like Daka Fal. That said, even outside of Glorantha, the limits on cult magic were not intended to be that, err, limiting. Since most setting use polytheistic pantheons, the ability to get more magic through associated cults is pretty high. That was how most stuff was set up. All fall out of the old Rune/Battle Magic from original RQ. I don7t think either system was really interned to stand by themselves. The settings that actually ran strong limits, also tended to have less magic overall, and thus avoided most long term spells anyway. When there are only a handful of magicians in a setting, any magic becomes much more powerful. But as far as your basic premise goes, I think you are spot on. Sorcerers eventually out powered the other magicians.

Thanks for the praise, but... I spotted a couple of errors that I need to fix. 1) SIZ 3 should be 38-51 pounds not 38-54. 2) SIZ 248 should be SIZ 240 to match with the table in thew BRP rulebook. However, according to the mathematical progression used in the table, SIZ 235 is probably the correct SIZ. I got to check with Jason on that and on a couple of things I discovered while working on the Expanded SIZ table that covers everything up to SIZ 330. THe table in the BRP book uses a increasing progression from SIZ 96 up to around 272 or so. SIZ 96-103 is +1 ton per SIZ point 104-111 is +2 tons per SIZ point 112-119 is +3 tons per SIZ point ...and so on up to over +23 tons per SIZ point. Unfortunately, the table breaks with the progression in a couple of spots that I believe are typos rather than intentional changes. For example SIZ 232 is listed as 1220 tons, only 36 tons more than the value for SIZ 224,but according to the mathematical progression used, it should probably be 1320 tons. 1320 would fit the progression perfectly (+16 tons per SIZ at that point), and smooth out the SIZ values from 224 to 232. But it would also throw the values over 232 off by 100 tons up to 330. Give me a little time to work out the expanded SIZ table before we talk wiki.

Thanks. Sorry about the rewrite. If it is any consolation, II'm in the same boat. You see, the way I spotted the error. I was working on my vhecile and spaceship rules and was getting the "wrong" speed answers when I switched from metric to English (smaller SISZ scores meant faster vehciles). I ended up with a headache at 3:30 AM wondering if I had forgotten how to do math. It wasn't unitl the next day that I looked closely at the table, then I pulled out a copy of Call of Cthulhu and discovered it had the same bug, and then asked someone else to double check it for me, as I began to doubt if I knew what a ton/tonne was. If it would help, I have a table with values for all SIZ scores from 1 up to 330. I need to tweak it a little to match up perfectly, but it is fairly close (within a lb/kg/ton/mt or two). If you want, I could email it to you, and even add in conversion from old metric SIZ to new. Least I could do, since I messed up all your mecha.

Not really. The big edge that sorcerers have is in long term effects. The Sorcerer can have a bunch of long term spells up, and still be at full POW/MPs. Also the Divine and Spirit mages must devote their POW and spell learning to specific spells, while the sorcerer is only limited by his Free INT and skill ratings, giving him a lot more flexibility. Again, lunar mages get the best of all worlds.

The British tons. Three reasons: 1) The British values progress normally, while the metric values for SIZ 64 (6455-7000 kg) and SIZ 72 (6.4-7 mt) are basically the same. So either every SIZ value between 64 and 72 has the same mass or the metric values are off. 2) The rules specially state that for SIZ 330+ the SIZ value is 1/10th the weight in short tons. The metric value listed, 1500 metric tons is about half what it should be to correlate with 3300 short tons. 3) I asked Jason, and he said to assume the English measurements are correct.

As most Divine Mages have access to some Spirit Magic too, especially in Glorantha, I think the balance of power isn't quite as tilted towards the Sorcery as it might appear. Probably the most powerful mages in an RQ Glorantha setting would be the Lunars, since they are Divine Mages with Spirit Magic that they can augment. Since on a point for point basis Spirit Magic is usually more powerful than Sorcery, a Lunar can probably fry a Sorcerer for fewer MPs, and be able to call of Divine Magic too.

Here is a corrected version of the BRP SIZ table. What's wrong with the table in the BRP rulebook? All of the metric values given in tons are about half of what they should be. Apparently whoever did the table originally, assumed that since 1 kg = 2.2 pounds, then 1 metric ton = 2.2 English short tons, when in fact 1 metric ton is about 1.1 short tons.

Okay, I got over the speedbump. For the most part writeups are looking okay, but some design stuff isn't coming out as easy as I wanted. Originally I wanted to use a Engine STR- Vehicle SIZ formula and look up the remainder on a chart to get the speed. But now I might have to use a power/mass formula.

Reminds me of guys I went to school with. Of course once you pass a certain age, you don't need to put the mattress in the van anymore, but can rent a room. THose who can aford new sportcars, don't need to put a mattress anywhere.

Often suicidal against a good sorcerer. If he was doing long term enchantments for all this stuff, he probably has a lot of spare MPs, and can put up enough damage resistance or do enough direct damage to deal with the big swords. The long term stuff is just nasty because it essentially translates into a constant +2 or +2 effect (or more). If everone on one side has Damage Boosting 4 or thier weapons, they basically act like they are using greatsword and shield. And since the MPs have been regenerated, it's like a freebie. Although, by this point, the sorcerer has probably figured out enough about the rules to start putting armoring enchantments of the other characters too.

I don't believe so. If I recall correctly, all the counter/dispel/etc. spells work against the spells intensity rather than total MPs. So long term spells were kind of fragile. The problem is, that's a massive "if".

Not possible, April 30th was the last day of the month. I suppose you mean later next month, meaning May, which is now this month, right? But then, your six hours ahead of the US Eastern time zone, so... ...we still gotta wait. Right?

"Next time, you stay in the van."

Never say Never. There are some times when a van is a good choice for a MI6 agent. You can get a lot much electronic stuff packed away inside one, and they're great for surveillance. Armor one up and it even makes a good tank substitute. It just isn't as fast or quite the babe magnet as the Aston Martin. Although these days, I doubt the DB V is still a babe magnet. You'd probably need a newer spotscar with a much larger price tag.

In that case I hope it is still under warranty.

AN RV might be better, but the van has a higher kewlness rating, and is harder to spot in traffic.

Yeah, D100-ySIZ:p

The trick is to think about what the car/truck/boat/whathaveyou is needed or, and what you expect the PCs to do with it. That should help you figure out just what details are going to be important. For example, in a modern/supernatural campaign, I would see a vehicles being used by the PCs to: 1) Get them from Point A to Point B (Like from their HQ to the suspected lair o a werewolf). 2) Carry any gear they might need (silver bullets for example) 3) Get them away from point B PDQ, when things are going horribly wrong and they need to get out of dodge. ("I thought you had the silver bullets!" 4) Provide them with some cover when things are going badly. ("Oh my gawd, we didn't shake it, and it's clawing through the roof"). 5) Serve as a secondary basecamp under adverse circumstances ("Uh, guys, I think I lost my wallet back there. It had all my money, and my driver's license. Can werewolves read?") 6) Be used as an emergency source of funding. ("How much will you give me for the van? UH no, those aren't claw marks, that's a sun roof. Tires are overrated anyway.) 7) Serve as temporary living quarters when necessary. ("Gee Sally, snuggled up like this isn't too bad. Say, that's a nasty looking scar on your hand there. Is that an animal bite?") 8) Serve as place to stash things that PCs don't want to be found. ("Sally, oh NO, SAALLLYY, NOOOOOO!") Personally, I suggest a nondescript van with tinted glass. Getting it armored and installing puncture proof tires aren't bad ideas, but let the players figure those things out or themselves.

What's Rome without a little wine? Maybe the powers that be will take pity on our plight and release a second preview or us to read while folks in the UK are getting their Tentacles on copies on Rome. :innocent:

I'd suggest only tracking the stats you really need. Wrting down the AP and HP and such are nice, since you never know when a gunfight might break out, but otherwise don't give yourself more work that you need. I'd also say that any TECH Stuff, for example a GPS system, should be used with a skill and/or provide a modifier to a skill, being used by a character (Driving,or Navigation for instance). That way the equipment doesn't overshadow the characters.