Joerg

1 hour ago, radmonger said:

IMG sacrifice adds to the power of the cult, not the god. More people who have sacrificed for more rune magic is a more powerful influence on the world; a stronger army, a more productive economy, and more informed decision makers. Which can support more and larger temples with more and larger wyters, who hand out more magic.

Apart from that effect, the 'power' of a god has the same relationship to the power of a cult as it does in the real world. When people believe something, they act on that belief. This can change the world.

People who believe in the Great Compromise don't study, or quest, for the magic that would break it. Except, of course, as a deterrent, retaliation or preemptive strike on what someone else is doing.

While it usually is the cult that mediates the magic to its initiates (and associates), it is the deity who receives the soul link (rune points) to the initiate and a little bit of indirect agency in the world of Time. (There is the possibility of spirit cults addressing the deity outside of the official cult structure, and there are Heroquesting ways to access the magic of a deity unlike the cult methods).

Bronze Age magic is not really about belief or even piety, it works on the principle "do ut des". The sacrifices are given to the deity in the expectation that the deity either offers help or abstains from causing undue damage. This is done by the cult whose leaders are held responsible for placating or mediating the deity.

In RuneQuest rune points acquired empower a follower who qualified to receive these rune points to spend them. Good standing in the (local section of the) cult allows the follower to renew these points by participation in the sacrifices of the holy day rites.

I have yet to see evidence for temple wyters or cult wyters - i.e. entities entirely relying on the gift of magic by the worshippers to grant magic to them. That is a difference to clan, tribal or city wyters which do rely on these. Temple spirits seem to come from the same pool as do allied spirits.

With most deities, sacrifice (not prayer) adds to their power, but they tend to have some intrinsic power of their own. There have been notable exceptions in Glorantha's past - Avanapdur in the Greater Darkness East Isles (an illusionary deity strengthened to the point that it deposed established ruling deities and led a number of Antigod leaders), Jogrampur in God Learner Umathela (an experimental made-up deity whose initiates wielded actual rune magic when they rose up in rebellion against the experimenters) and to some extent the Machine God Zistor in the Clanking City.

17 hours ago, Malin said:

I really do love the idea of "legendary weapons" heirlooms or magical items having their own ransom. Though I suppose if I was a bandit, I wouldn't keep anything that made me worry that whoever I had caught would be coming after me to get it back. Sure, I'll keep the pack animals, but that named steed with the expensive tack? Hmmm too risky.

One thing that is of some importance in my understanding of Glorantha is that a lot of the equipment carried by the adventurers won't be theirs to give away as they please, but would be the property of the household they belong to, or the clan, or the cult, or the leader they swore service to, or loaned by the quest-giver.

15 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

How does it work when a river flows uphill, in Glorantha?

For the regular flow, the logic is obvious - rain falls, runs downwards, collects into a river, flows out to sea, rises as clouds, and so on.

But when a river flows uphill, then you end up with a lot of water further up. But then what happens to it? Does it find some other place to flow back? Get absorbed into the ground? Something has to happen with all that water deposited further up on land!

The Godtime rivers were tendrils of Sea sent onto the dry to collect nutrients and energies for their parent bodies of water, which means that while they crept uphill (and had an uphill flow) they would have to send back whatever they collected through the tendril back to the seas. Think of them as living entities rather than as mere strips of water.

The river bodies would be made up of various internal currents, those on the surfaces moving uphill, those in the interior flowing back.

An anatomy like that would also allow "normal" sedimentation of digested debris in the lower parts of the river.

And any lost waters from Heler would be scooped up and re-united with the seas that way.

40 minutes ago, Nozbat said:

I'm not getting impatient to spend my money or anything like that... but... the weekend is almost over

Not until Monday 12AM GMT.

Quite a lot of such artifacts could be what we know as "contact relics" from medieval Christian practices. If you look a the story of the Red Sword of Tolat in the Guide, that reads like many of the items in the Godtime myth already are such copies or descendants of the original.

9 hours ago, soltakss said:

With the stripey costume it looks like a prisoner of some sort

While it acknowledges the depictions of Eurmal e.g. in Agathe Pitie's hidden picture puzzles of Mythology, I think what is missing are the Tvi'lek tentacles with bells on.

2 hours ago, scott-martin said:

Their Glorantha(s) Varied. Or maybe they stayed in "Glorontha" or "Acos" or some other state of being before the apocalypse that created the modern world. From our point of view engaged with the text of Glorantha, they did not survive. Unless they come back or we go over ("er meint irgendein sagenhaftes Drüben") anything can be true.

Or maybe that return to a happier, earlier phase of the Cosmos is the equivalent of Annihilation of its futures? A looped past that removes itself and its memories from what emerged out of the Greater Darkness?

3 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

Pretty much everything about Glorantha is presented as in-world raving, and there is no requirement that Dumb Theories be true ravings: “What convictions do YOU have that you recognize are ridiculous but love them anyway?”

Not quite. A good amount of Gloranthan lore has been accumulated under the watchful oversight of Truth magic, which admittedly tests the subjective truthfulness of the author rather than providing a Lhankor Mhy Reconstruction magic for each and every bit of data.

The study of Chaos (and laterally adjacent matters, including Disorder, Lunar madness or the veil of Darkness) has an intrinsic falsehood. This is the province of Gbaji, which even the Arkati acknowledge as a risk. Tomes like the Book of Drastic Resolution are doing the work of Gbaji (at least when they go into unsupervised distribution outside of sufficiently enlightened AND responsible circles).

3 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

Creation is one thing we would normally contrast with Chaos. I think we are agreed that “Chaos things” (gorp, etc.) are made of the same stuff as Cosmos, just differently ordered. Corruption — rot — of stuff (let us park the soul, for now) is a Darkness function.

Corrosion is a force inherent to all of the elements, with rather different outcomes as per element. Storm and Sea corrosion results in different products than Dark corrosion (aka rot), but exposure to Earth provides digestion (rot), too (composting). Exposure to Light and Flame weakens and erodes stuff in yet different ways when it doesn't simply burn them. Moonglow corrodes the mind.

Corruption on the other hand goes beyond mere corrosion (which is just a form of Change, of Becoming). Corruption is Unbecoming, losing all defining properties except for corrupting whatever it touches.

3 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

Two notions of the Chaos–Cosmos contrast (neither of which requires a duality of substance):

• Cosmos is stuff and Chaos is nothing;

Not true. The Void is a (hot) vacuum of eternal becoming and instantly unbecoming, not really nothing, but inherently impermanent.

Gorp stuff is at least semi-permanent, but non-gorp stuff that gets absorbed by gorp passes through a singularity losing all and every definition it had before. Somewhat ironically, the most solid and ordered stuff is what is weakest against gorp, while the some of most volatile stuff can permanently consume gorp stuff, removing it from the Web of Arachne Solara (or fast-feeding it to Time?).

Time itself acts a bit like gorp-stuff (it is after all Kajabor regurgitated), but it hinders itself in consuming Creation, slowing that inevitable process.

3 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

• Cosmos is well-ordered stuff and Chaos is the same stuff but lacking its proper structure.

Creation includes well-ordered Darkness, well-ordered Sea, well-ordered Disorder, well-ordered Storm, even well-ordered Wildfire and well-ordered Celestial sperm. Rock, Metal and Crystal are the only well-ordered components of Creation.

Gorp stuff lacks almost all properties. It has some cohesion (which sharp or bludgeoning objects can easily disrupt, though, separating out portions of the bad stuff), it possesses a certain amount of energy enabling it to move (or rather translocate by oozing), and it corrupts stuff that it touches. It is weak towards brine, towards fast-flowing water (energy), and to flame, and Storm can stall it but not really diminish it. Earth and Rock are weak to it.

Gorp stuff has no structure - that's the point(lessness) of it.

3 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

Both notions are likely in play (see, for example, Cults of Prax Classic: Designer Notes, Part Two — PDF, p. 106), but the idea of nothing, non-being, nirvana as evil is the one that intrigues me.

The Void/Silence/Primal Plasma/Prime Mover acts as a contemplation of the balance of Becoming and Unbecoming beyond Creation which may open the way not into the dissolution in the Void but into unity with the Ultimate, the Source of Energies. That's the mystic end game, not mere submission to the Void but surpassing the limits of existence and becoming the Source. The Void (by whichever name you call it) is neutral when kept separate from Creation. Small amounts of Unbecoming can be tolerated and balanced while the well of Creation works enough to replace what gets annihilated.

4 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

the idea of nothing, non-being, nirvana as evil is the one that intrigues me. I have no sympathy for it, but it is fascinating to me that someone would think of it as evil. Why must the gods think of their ceasing to be as evil? “Because then they wouldn’t exist” adds nothing and so is a non-answer.

Getting swallowed by Unbecoming separates them from the Ultimate (which is projected onto them by the runes).

As far as I can make it out, Chaos can reach out to Atrilith, but gets undone when confronted with the Ultimate - that's how Mashunasan operates.

4 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

Horror at the thought of the Void produces monsters, not the Void itself for that is nothing and does nothing (which is why people don’t like “it”).

Infection of reality by the Void produces monsters, as can unprepared exposure to the Ultimate. Properly prepared confrontation of and then unity with the Ultimate allows ascension. (Which might be different from Malkioni Ascended Masters who have intellectual unity with the One Mind.)

4 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

So my witterings are offered in the spirit of good non-canonical fun, but not fun with no contact with the text. We have and for the breaking down of structure, so if doesn’t connote total existence failure, which rune does?

None. Infinity ties to the Ultimate, the Source, the flow of energies (life) through the world. Death/Separation wards existence against annihilation.

Chaos denotes the impending loss of connection to the Ultimate, even if it may allow a direct access to its energies through the chaotic features, including stuff like Walktapus or Cave Troll regeneration or Were-beast shape-shifting and immunity to mundane weaponry.

4 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

Even is said to connote temporary reality rather than no reality at all — though I suspect there is a “Gloranthan” tendency to view only permanent reality as “true” or “real” reality, but that is a step along the path of nothing substantial is real, isn’t it? I guess some people worry about whether the world is real enough and the soul immortal enough — my conceit is that these people are potential chaos fighters and potential monsters.

Illusion is reality that dissipates in the face of the Ultimate (and/or against the corruption of Time). It is part of reality, but without direct access to the energies sent out into the world by the Ultimate, although Illusion may be fed indirectly by these energies once they have been processed by Life (or possibly once they have been reflected by Moon).

in White Bear and Red Moon, the Illusionary Armies of the Puppeteer Troupe are reality, but must not get into the neighborhood of dragons or superheroes (or any other manifestations of Infinity) or be annihilated.

4 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

If there is no rune that points clearly and unambiguously at the Empty Void, is that a measure of anxiety — we daren’t even name it? If anyone dares to say that no real, solid, scabby Wakboth can be Chaos because Wakboth is, then they are breaking a taboo, so their fellow Gloranthans call them mad for saying it (and being a lone voice crying in the wilderness can in the end drive one mad). The point of giving us the Book of Drastic Resolutions is not for us to immediately discard it as worthless, but to provide us with an additional way of looking at the subject matter. Perhaps …

I posit if there is a rune for Nothing, it is a blank.

There is a rune for the Void, though - for the balance of Becoming and Unbecoming outside of Creation (which can also be read as "before Creation" and even as "after Uncreation"). The Void is a vacuum quantum plasma. It has Zero Point Energy. On the edge of a singularity, it may manifest stuff or energies.

Chaos is a drain on the energies from the Source. That's a different (absence of) quality.

Earlier we had the statement that Chaos is a scab on exposure to the Void. I disagree - Chaos is a sore and a pustulence, not a scab.

34 minutes ago, mfbrandi said:

 No Chaos creature — gorp, dragonsnail, Devil, ogre, und so weiter — is made of Chaos stuff. There is no Chaos stuff.

The writings in Drastic:Chaos are the unreliable ravings of a madman (it says so in the publication).

Critters with chaotic features such as Walktapi or Dragonsnails and even the Left Hand of the Devil are made up of partially corrupted Creation. Gorp are completely corrupted Creation, reduced to an infectuous plasma. Unlike the Primal Plasma in the Void which is omipotent in its potential, Gorp plasma has lost all potential except to consume Creation into its own sorry state.

19 minutes ago, soltakss said:

My guess, and it is entirely a guess, is that it would have happened in the Storm Age Greatwood, before it became Deadwood. It all depends whether it happened before the slaying of Yelm (Early Storm Age) or after (Later Storm Age/Lesser Darkness).

The exact point at which the forests became the Deadwood and when they became active again (before Time in case of some Green Elf forests?) remains unclear to me, as well as the recovery of the Winterwood from the Glacier (which had reached the Nidan Mountains during Storm Age according to some maps).

It is as if some annual cycle happened both when Yelm was stuck in the skies and when there was almost nothing alive. But maybe that night be explained by people(s) moving to an earlier layer of Godtime?

But then could not a majority of Glorantha have fled to happier times, never quite facing the Greater Darkness?

3 hours ago, Eff said:

Liquid water and ice are the same thing, dihydrogen monoxide. But I can sense ice without confusing it with liquid water.

Can you under all circumstances? If you drop your hand into supra-cooled distilled water (say at -4°C, no idea whether that is around 20°F or somewhere) and the water almost instantly freezes, when will you know the difference? if you give a cold water surface a very flat tangential slap, are you sure you know the difference?

Our sensory impression of water ice usually is that of the water film on the surface, of the not quite crystalline border region. It is what makes ice slippery. Your haptic impression of an icicle actually is that of liquid (or at least semi-liquid) water on the surface of a solid.

(You can of course cool water ice down to the temperature which makes your tongue stuck on it for a bit, that's when you will know the exact difference.)

For all of this pedantry, the comparison to your haptic impression of ice might an excellent comparison to identifying Chaos against some other form of unease or even fear. There are situations where your impression can be misleading or not as binary as your cognition might suggest to you.

54 minutes ago, mfbrandi said:

Because of osmosis? We have marine amoebae, and surely a shoggoth laughs in the face of salt. It would be a pity if we didn’t have saltwater gorp, too. Of course, if people believe there are none … 😉

IMG Gorp don't contain any water or other recognizable element. They are made up of completely corroded (as well as corrosive) Chaos plasma. Like those bits that fall off Cwim or its mini clones when killed/severed.

Gorp don't contain acid in the regular sense of something sour that will etch certain materials. Gorp "acid" will dissolve anything solid (for given values of solid, like e.g. human skin) but is ineffective against volatile substances like water, air, moonglow or darkness. But this is countered by the brine of the Baths of Nelat that will sear away all impurities - and Gorp substance is an impurity.

1 hour ago, svensson said:

ALL our PCs in RQ2 and 3 would think of having steading full of groupies as something that would put a frikkin' halt to an adventuring life. In most milieux that would be true. It would be true in the Fantasy Europe of Cormac the Pict, it would be true in the Forgotten Realms, or the cities of Greyhawk, Lankhmar and Sanctuary. But this is no longer applicable for RQG as written. The difference is that the community is now very much a character in the game, something more that a collection of bars, libraries and gear shops. RQG seeks to make the community part of the character's identity, something more than just a few lines of 'Background and History' on a character sheet.

Weirdly enough, me GMing my first RuneQuest campaign (RQ3) was based on Greg Stafford's Viking box for Avalon Hill, with characters in their mid- to end twenties, (more or less) happily married and out of their steads to ensure the community's survival on the edge of hostile neighbors (some vaguely reminiscent of Picts, the others a nation of RuneQuest Ogre sorcerers leaning on the Fomorian myth). Having a set of dependents was natural for the Vikings in the Icelandic sagas, and did not really impede the flow of the campaign with part-time long distance sea travel for trading and raiding, part time domestic troubleshooting or actually pursuing their "civilian" occupations (like e.g. boat builder). I don't remember playing any Ronin-style wanderers, at least not outside of a YT 1300 crew in D6 Star Wars sentenced to pro-bono missions for the Rebellion.

2 hours ago, Snugz said:

Question on Felster Lake/Lake Felster in central Ralios: if "It was carved out of the earth when the Storm Gods warred against the Serpent Beasts" (GtG), when did that happen?

Sounds to me like a side effect of the Plundering of Aron, a myth of the Stormbrothers who collectively returned the Vingkotling livestock lured away by the Enchanter (apparently a Mostali with pied piper magics).

Or you look it up on the Well of Daliath:

https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/lake-felster/

3 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

 because even in a fantasy world, no sociopath would become a leader of their community.

A devious sociopath in an elective position will profess to act virtuously much of the time, getting away with murder quite a bit, especially in a society where people bear weapons and monetary fines, bribes or just intimidation can stop criminal persecution. In a fantasy world possibly less so if there is Truth magic to expose their faults even to their most zealous supporters.

The Syphon also was home to one of the fish roads, and that should still be connected to the Nochet terminus at the Golod temple.

The Syphon retains the Godtime form of a river - it should not be a flat, listless basin of moving water, but a tendril of water with an outer current pushing uphill, and interior currents that may reach back toward the Heart of the Seas. IMG the Godtime rivers used this interior current to carry off energies and sediments towards the Seas, thereby allowing regular sedimentation effects despite "flowing uphill".

Navigating on such a bulge of water might be tricky, as you have to take care to remain on the back of the tendril.

Yes, IMG it is brackish saltwater - all rivers were (at least running uphill), although they would collect the rains dropped by Heler and reunite them with the seas.

Chaos at the head of the river is the reason why the Syphon retains its direction, continuing to sear away at the Chaos there.

30 minutes ago, Snork said:

What about wandering priests? Roaming the countryside. Probably only visit shrines as congregation numbers are low. Still get MP and points of POW for their god. 

RAW, a priest position requires a small temple to support it. A godtalker can be supported by/supporting a shrine, but the income situation is different.

14 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

If Paulis is right to say that the difference resides not in existence — a suggestion I claim is fun even if it is not canon — and this applies to the Chaos–not Chaos distinction, then ... There is nothing to detect.

There is something even less than vacuum to detect. The question is not whether something is Chaos. It is whether something is Not-of-Creation. Something (or rather not-Nothing) alien and out of context.

Illumination provides some context to the not-Nothing, possibly making it stand out less.

14 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

Of course any fool can detect pus, slime, tentacles, and a rampaging army of broo, but that is not the supposed USP of the Bullies, is it?

As far as I can find Storm Bull's source of this power, it is from having experienced Death and almost Destruction by the Devil (except for Earthpower).

In a way, Gloranthan reality is what is abnormal in the path of the energies emerging from the Source and dispersing into the Void. The Source Is, the Void Isn't, the energies have as little meaning as the matter excreted from the Chaosium (which may be the anomality).

13 minutes ago, mfbrandi said:

I think this is an excellent question, and my answer is in the spirit of MGF (not the elucidation something profound or the articulation of canon … whatever that is).

• My King, it is said there is a dim and a bright side to all of existence, and that only those who are Illumined see that the difference resides not in existence but in the way we choose to see it.
  — Cults of Terror (Classic PDF, p. 85)

Paulis Longvale is not an illuminate, but he is right: there really is no difference between the glass half full and the glass half empty, the duck picture and the rabbit picture. “Aspect perception” is — we might say — a projection: now it seems to represent a duck, now a rabbit, but crucially we see that the picture has not changed (that no line has moved or shifted colour).

"This creature has a significant association with the dim(inished) side of existence." Also known (and embraced as) Chaos by the Lunar illuminates. As such, illumination does not erase Chaos. As Oddi found out, it is still there, and it still can be killed. The outrage imperative may be gone, but the Bull still demands that Chaos be killed, and the Bull still offers the ability to sense its presence.

Its use might need to be re-learned, though.

13 minutes ago, mfbrandi said:

Of course, this has consequences: an illuminated Storm Bull cannot detect Chaos, but neither can a “benighted” Storm Bull.

Does Illumination cut the ties to the Storm Bull? Does it eliminate the gifts and geases of Humakt and Yanafal or Yelmalio Antirius Reladivus Kargzant? Does it prevent Divine Intervention, the effects of Madness or Mindblast? No, it doesn't.

It can add the ability to recognize illumination (or other form of Enlightenment) in others.

9 hours ago, svensson said:

So, question for the Collective Thanatari Head...

I've done a fair bit typing and brainstorming on this topic and I think I'm gonna I'm gather my ideas together for my own use.

Would you guys like me to upload a file with all that?

Please go ahead. You might consider a short Jonstown Compendium publication in the future, too.

10 hours ago, svensson said:

And while those who know about Waha's Covenant MAY know that, almost NO Heortling knows it.

Also unknown to most is that all Waha Khans can perform this magic, not just the Morokanth. Beware the friendly Bison khan...

2 hours ago, radmonger said:

If they are sold, it will be to Morokanth, who will convert them into herd beasts and ultimately eat them; this is not chaotic. Or, pre-Dragonrise, to the Lunars, who are, but what can you do?

I think only members of Waha's Covenant can be subject to this (expensive) spell. And Morokanth don't even like meat that much, they are ritually obliged to eat it. The rune point economy suggests this only happens if the seller pays for the magic to be used.

(Which makes me wonder: can a person butchered subject to Alter Creature be contacted as an ancestor?)

According to David Scott, Morokanth are a typical intermediary to return ransomees between Praxian parties, as they are known to keep their human-shaped companions healthy.

1 hour ago, svensson said:

2. It is a VERY bad idea to capture or kill the herald. Doing so makes every single person of your clan or unit an outlaw to the opposing party and will see your people sold into slavery or simply killed on the spot for convenience's sake. What's more, such actions will severe repercussions long after the war is over. Heralds and merchants are most often members of the same cults, and what merchant of Issaries will bring goods to a clan that murdered a herald in the execution of his office? And how do you think YOUR merchants will get treated if you murder a herald, hmmm?

Alll of that applies to an intermediary sent to you, but not necessarily to an intermediary to ransom someone else from someone else, or returning with ransomees. Are such folk ethically taboo to rob?

7 hours ago, svensson said:

- The price of ordinary gear [normal armors, non-magical weapons, non-magical jewelry plus wear-and-tear] is deducted from the ransom demand and a neutral messenger is then sent off with the ransom demand.

- Once the required ransom is paid, the prisoner is released with a letter or rune-stick saying that they have been honorably ransomed and are not subject to recapture unless they commit a crime. Oftentimes a member of the captor group will accompany the former prisoner to the frontier.

Usually the payment will be brought by a neutral messenger (usually of the Issaries cult, possibly Argan Argar or Etyries) who will usually be tasked with returning the ransomed prisoner, too.

People in the ransom trade shouldn't ordinarily be targeted, as that would ruin the ransom business for all others involved.

Loss of equipment due to captivity is a major issue for players, especially if that equipment includes bound spirits or an attuned crystal. Are there conventions for ransoming back personal or community-owned equipment? Imagine your party in a situation where they need to offer ransom while carrying the Black Spear of the Colymar?