Joerg

The Doraddi cult of Pamalt (a bit more than Tada in Genertela) and the Aldryami are at odds. The Male Earth of Pamaltela and the forests are close allies. Different aspects of the same deity, I guess.

6 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Fun times getting that across the seas.

Maybe ask the Mostali - they shipped dinos from Slon to Jrustela. Shoveltuskers are small compared to that. Or the Vadeli.

4 minutes ago, Erol of Backford said:

Wyrm's Footnotes 15 p.03 - Where did Count Felagga’s Mystic Menagerie get Ambelodon – (shovel-tusked mastodon) quite tame. “Ride the ambelodon! Five Pieces of Eight.” The ambelodon stands on an island surrounded by a moat. It can wade the moat easily, but putting it on the island allows for crowd control and the collecting of tickets... Teshnos?

Weird pachyderms - think Fonrit.

5 hours ago, soltakss said:

You can just use Gorakiki spells as the Transforms, they work in the same was as Hsunchen magic. I don't see any reason why some troll clans couldn't be the equivalent of insect Hsunchen.

 

Gorakiki Trolls don't usually claim insect ancestry, unlike Hsunchen (and Orlanthi) who claim descent from totemic beasts.

Other than Cragspider (and possibly troll victims of Bagog), I am not aware of any troll-arthropod hybrids.

Varmandi are in a state of feud with the Orlevings who control the valley Greenstone occupies, which makes pilgrimages or passage quite problematic unless they follow a non-feuding leader as sworn followers (if only for the trip). You don't usually grant hospitality to feuding foes, except when they come under emissary signs.

1 hour ago, Orlanthatemyhamster said:

Where has this happened in history?

European serfdom, for a start, and similar practices in East Asia.

You'll receive this week's Delecti Award for thread necromancy. 😄

1 minute ago, jajagappa said:

Trying to get players to follow the intricacies of high-level city politics (and remember them from session-to-session) is a challenge. That's why I find it easier to start "local". Let the players take "ownership" of a set of figures they know and develop some backstory about. That gives you some framing to add some "politics" around the relationships they've established. Much easier to know that your Biggest Rival lives in that neighborhood, and that neighborhood belongs to the Ingilli's, so when your rival challenges you, you have to wonder whether it is personal, or if the Ingillis are up to some scheme.

High level politics are likely to be part of the underwater portion of the icebergs that are the initial encounters and antagonists faced by the player characters. Whether you have an investigative game or your players act as troubleshooters for hire, as you play a campaign you will learn about the people backing or controling your antagonists or possibly your patrons or your community.

Sometimes your economical struggle is the result of House rivalries above your own community, and those House rivalries in turn may be influenced by the greater politics. Sometimes your players might work toward resolving a conflict by negotiation and compromise, at other times they might be involved in the decisive victory of one of the parties (and it may well be possible that they work for the losing side in that outcome, possibly losing a patron, possibly being introduced to some other deeper scheme).

Other than houses (or clans or tribes) there will be guilds (similar, but not identical), temples (and temple factions), secret societies and civic associations, and factions and organisations operating outside of the law (smugglers, thieves, ransom hunters, spies, unlicensed slavers and slave-catchers), foreigners or outside the species (troll connections, dwarf contacts, elf agents, ducks, beastfolk, merfolk, newtlings, magisaurs, dragonewts).

29 minutes ago, Erol of Backford said:

David Scott: Camels seem to exist only on the Shadow Plateau (Can't remember the source).

I wonder whether that comes from the Al-Hazara caravanserai in the City of Carse which had images of camels being loaded. The other source for the existence of camels in Glorantha is the Trickster story about Mother Mammal being surprised so badly that the child became the camel. I wonder whether the (originally northern Keshian) Al-Hazaras became Kitori in the Chaosium House Campaign adaptation of Carse - in my adaptation I made them Etyries-worshipping Sable Riders from Kostaddi, and unless a City of Karse supplement by Chaosium is going to provide similar detail, a lot of the Midkemia Press NPCs I involved in my adaptation are going to transmigrate to the new city layout without too much change.

Just now, StephenMcG said:

I have been gaming since 1977 and pretty comfortable at running an adventure, telling a story and managing combat.

I am clueless though at running an urban campaign, managing the social situations, laying down the mosaic of politics in a way players can negotiate, get involved and find things out.  So last night was pushing my comfort levels quite substantially.

Much like with Glorantha as a setting, running an urban game in a fantasy setting (like Glorantha) should start small and expand from there. It takes some buy-in from the players, and having a stock of NPCs, ideally with some sort of portrait, and an idea how to run them helps a lot.

Encounters (single or multiple NPCs) or neighborhoods with more color help, too.

In modern era games, urban scenarios are way easier to run as the players will know most of the context. World of Darkness, Cyberpunk, Shadowrun, Dresden Files, Rivers of London and of course Call of Cthulhu are full of urban scenarios and encounters, and having played some of these will help when facing the added complication of running a completely fictional setting where a lot more has to be explained the further the setting is away from lived-in experience or familiarity from movies or TV-series.

You can learn and loan a lot from the Gloranthan freeforms when it comes to characterization of NPCs or contacts. (Freeforms tend to have few GM-played characters by design, but the GM can use the freeform PCs as NPCs with little extra work if any.) Unfortunately, there is currently only one of these in print, the Life of Moonson (unless you count Sartar High Council in Wyrm's Footnotes - 7 or 8, IIRC). Also, many of the freeforms concentrate on the who-is-who in the Gloranthan publications, aiming at a power level that is far from the grass-roots.

In my experience, it helps when the player characters and a bunch of NPCs have a common history in the city. Depending on player buy-in and tools offered to the players, you might start out with a bunch of friends, rivals, patrons, friendly resources, reserved or even hostile resources created by the player group. Harald Smith's "Nochet - Queen of Cities" offers some mechanics towards this turnout.

There are a couple of Gloranthan and non-Gloranthan iconic urban settings with different approaches.

I had good experiences as a player and GM in the German translation (and world adaptation) of City of Carse by Midkemia Press, which offers a very useful shorthand to describe its plethora of NPCs. The amount of names and detail is overkill, but still handy to have. Tulan of the Isles and Jonril also use the outcome from the Cities Book which was also published as RuneQuest Cities by Avalon Hill, and scans of the early 1980ies publications are available at around five quid, and well worth it. If you want to test whether that format does anything for you, check Towns of the Outlands which is available as a free download. Another, sadly out-of-print city detailed using the Cities Book was Sanctuary (or Refuge?) in Chaosium's Thieves World box.

Two AD&D city descriptions managed to impress me (and my GMing) back in the days - City of Lankhmar, and Irilian (from Best of White Dwarf vol. III). Lankhmar came with a "make it up as you go" approach which is good advice if you can pull stuff out of your head at a moment's notice, and if you have a framework of factions or associations you can integrate your new areas and encounters in, just like Rubble Runners does.

Official Glorantha has the city of (New) Pavis with a cast of NPCs and a few scenarios and encounters. To a lesser extent, Jonstown has received a short treatment in the Starter Box.

Harald Smith's Nochet - Queen of Cities and its companion offer a start in a metropolis, and it comes with guidelines and mechanics for integrating characters grown out of Harald's experience running games there. Nochet is huge, and while there are about 1000 buildings that gain a description, those are only a few places sticking out of the multitude.

Simon Bray's Furthest - Crown Jewel of Lunar Tarsh presents a near-metropolis on a level a little more remote than Pavis, but with a few examples to be used for a neighborhood.

Chris Gidlow's Citizens of the Lunar Empire shows how a living place can hold all manner of minor and greater mysteries, and provides a whole lot of memorable characters whose real world not-quite-parallels by Victor Hugo help memorize them. The Rough Guide to Glamour can provide some of the greater overview over the Lunar capital, and the freeform characters in Life of Moonson offer a lot of ideas for metaplot if you want to play there at a more grass-roots level. Citizens of the Lunar Empire can be transplanted to Furthest if you prefer your Lunar madness a little less overpowering.

The upcoming Home of the Bold freeform will likely see a new edition of the Rough Guide to Boldhome, hopefully including a bit of the Who is Who from the character cast in this year's upcoming run at Chaosium Con.

Beer With Teeths Dregs and Cups of Clearwine introduce two small neighborhoods in the very small tribal city of Clearwine with their own dynamics, leaving the greater "urban" who-is-who to the Colymar Adventure Book in the GM Screen package.

Urban adventures differ in a number of ways from the expedition type scenarios where player characters come well prepared for havoc and crisis. That's one of the points where you need player buy-in - nobody appears fully armed and armored in the typical everyday situations that make up a lot of the urban gaming. You come across information or threats while performing every-day activities, like shopping in the market or hanging out for a drink or a meal. That may mean that your characters are vulnerable when a crisis comes. When investigating a criminal gang in a bath-house, I had a character of mine voluntarily spend half the adventure session in the nude (pretending not to have resisted their sleep drug) without any equipment (even the essential towel was taken), hostage situation and all that resulting...

City encounters with more than three player characters involved from the start are possibly the exception, most of the time you are lucky when there is more than one person involved in such interactions. This can be handled in a play-by-post or play-by-mail environment more easily than in face-to-face games with a single GM, as the GM can give their full attention to every such expedition or encounter.

In a face-to-face game, a small GM team could handle these separated parties (or indeed separate parties encountering one another) with some preparation, but to pull that off for more than a one-off event might be impossible. (Early on in my GMing days I created a semi-ruined city for several parties, each with their own GM, and a GM table with locations and encounters to take away, and leave their name when another GM's party approaches the same item. We somehow pulled that off as a tournament game for a convention I organized.)

Having more than one GM also helps giving the NPCs more depth - you can have them in different voices. If your players are up to that, you could give encounter NPCs to players whose characters are not involved in that encounter with a short "how to play this NPC in this encounter" sheet. Rubble Runners is almost there with its NPC descriptions.

10 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Free-roaming sky bulls and titanotheres used to graze there, but have now moved south of the Bullflood.

While I know that there are heroquesting ways to bond with a sky bull, "free roaming titanotheres" makes me wonder whether there are clans who have semi-domesticated these meat mountains?

5 hours ago, Ali the Helering said:

My writings and lectures are, of course, completely balanced and utterly rational.🙃

Care to share some links or examples? We can only benefit from more sources.

35 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

The next section, even more tantalizing, is titled "The Rebellion of Kaldes" and then the page is blank!

What could the son of Zzabur and chief sorcerer of Brithos (after the retirement of his father) be rebelling against? The Engrions?

8 hours ago, Ali the Helering said:

Seriously though, this requires the deity to be stupid to the point of drooling imbecility, as a willing victim of Pascal's Wager!  In such a circumstance the term 'worship' doesn't apply since the deity has no worth beyond being a victim of manipulation on the level of grooming. 

In such a circumstance the word 'deity' is inappropriate - maybe 'dumb mana resource'? 🙃

In the pre-Christian understanding of the world, if you perform the rites and sacrifices properly, the deity is bound by its nature to comply. If results fail to appear, another deity must have interfered, and the deity won't receive sacrifices for this task any more as it has become too weak.

Nature phenomena are powerful, but they don't tend to have much in the way of personality or cunning. The many stories of out-tricking the devil harken back to the pre-Christian magical practices, and show a powerful but still limited entity that humans interact with.

2 hours ago, Darius West said:

I wonder how an atlatl performs when used from the saddle?  

From my limited experience with such a device, nocking an atlatl arrow (and keeping it nocked) is a bit fiddlier than nocking an arrow on a bow string. But that's on foot.

1 hour ago, Malin said:

You have changed my worldview!  Love that way of thinking about it...

Quite the costly treatment in terms of rune points. As an introductory treatment, how about Befuddle?

5 hours ago, davecake said:

And what hellish process creates a gunpowder gobbler? 

Sounds like a contraption with a number of sorcerous spells enmeshed with one another. Sorcerous spells are a lot like spirits (at least IMG), and there may be a Gold Caste controlling spell coordinating the other caste tasks the gobbler needs to perform.

Gobblers are fire-and-forget weapons, not expected to last long. It is fine if they get destroyed when they have consumed the targeted stuff, ideally causing collateral damage in their destruction.

Nilmergs appear to be similar to embodied helpful household spirits ("Heinzelmännchen"), cheerfully fulfilling their assigned (usually limited) tasks. Their inner workings don'T seem to have received any detailed study yet - there might be clockwork, there might be golem-technology, there might be bones and muscles or reproductions thereof.

I can recall no information about the life cycle or duration of nilmergs. Their destructive cousins tend to have a short life expectancy when targeting absconded Mostali technology/sorcery.

The theory about unviable proto-dwarf modules, recycled in order to serve some limited purpose, doesn't quite account for the (presumed) number of nilmergs found assisting the dwarfs (IMO a ratio of 1:1 or better, not quite approaching the trollkin per troll ratio).

We haven't heard about Itsolam, defective mostali sent out to sabotage enemies, which makes me a bit dubious about the "dross of dwarf production" theory.

There is trained militia (the infantry and cavalry units of WBRM's City Militia, which is fairly professional) and the pool of ablebodied people who experienced a short bout of militia training or two.

Trained militia will be able to form a line in a battle situation, and receive an enemy attack for long enough to have more professional forces sort things out on another section of the front. They will be able to man fortifications and fend off disadvantaged attackers almost regardless how professional the attackers are.

The mounted militia is well-equipped and has decent abilities with their weapons. They havebeen driled to coordinate the individuals. They can ride a frontal charge against another mounted force or against light infantry, they are trained to attack flanks and rears, they can give chase, and well trained militia will also break off chases or attacks when ordered.

Untrained militia will be able to man fortifications (palisades, earth ramparts, doors) and resist attackers for long enough to call in better trained forces. They may finish off or capture downed foes, or guard captives sworn to ransom.

Forces like these will (almost reliably) break under a cavalry charge and won't hold position when faced with skirmishing forces. They may deliver a skirmishing attack to annoy or weaken enemy lines or flanks.

As a rule, these forces fight on their home turf and have that as a tactical or terrain advantage - they know where to hide, what wetlands to avoid, etc., and that means they can still trouble or slow down regulars they are facing.

They may dig ditches and ramparts, latrines, and other such field jobs. (Participation in the road building projects will have left the Princes of Sartar with quite competent pioneers in the militia. Minaryth's dam ambush at the Hill of Orlanth Victorious was possible in part because his forces were used to do earthworks.)

The route south of the Shadow Plateau will involve at least very wet feet even at lowest tide. The marsh around Frog Island reaches all the way to the slopes of the Plateau.

There might be some passage mountaineering in a few hundred feet above Sea Level, possibly meeting balkonies with access from inside the Plateau. Not exactly a Praxian speciality, though (unless these Storm Bulls have experience climbing the Block).

The Fish Road from Nochet to Backford might still be operable.

Following the Lyksos, Runnel and New River upriver to the old Creak-Stream River bed is not as dry a route as a Praxian might prefer, and it ends in the Dammed Marsh just south of Beast Valley.

The least problematic overland route south of Sartar would be through the Grazelands, past Smoking Ruin and Wild Temple towards the Whitewall road south. The Southern Wilds are detailed in Chaosium's The Smoking Ruins, with encounters to choose from.

9 minutes ago, Martin said:

I wonder...maybe whether meeting Imarja comes in the area of the Heron Hegemony? She is a bird goddess and that area is ruled by the council of birds?

IMO the Heron Hegemony on the God Learner maps is just a projection of Suvaria onto the greater mythical map. There are no surviving pieces of evidence for any heron activity in Vyimorni or Agimori lands, or islands.

Zzabur's wars tell us about "Beakies" washed into the Neliomi Sea by the Solkathi flood which drowned the greater portion of Ernaldela (the lowlands north of the Spike). Maybe we don't need to look all the way to Keetela to get some birdheads there. Possibly the mythical antecessors of the Durulz re-created in Remakerela to populate a Godtime-ish EWF core region? Descendants of Imarja?

If so, why were they cursed by Yelm? Did they resist his usurpation of sovereignty over the world?

7 hours ago, Cassius said:

I see this initiation time a little differently. These boys, who are no longer children and not yet adults, experience the frontier during their adulthood initiation. The physical frontier of the clan or tribe: this is where they set up camp and live most of the time. The frontier of humans and gods. The frontier of law and illegality.

I agree that the boys during that stage are in an inbetween stage, but this is a time to make mistakes, a time which may bring them outside of the law.

7 hours ago, Cassius said:

They're not outside the law, in my opinion, but on its edge. They must learn to respect the common law, while being given the freedom to transgress it. Savagery and violence are what they must resist to become full adults, to become truly Orlanthi.

I wonder how well informed they are about precedences and the finer terms of law. They take up weapons, something that children have been forbidden to do. They start to engage in fighting, in raiding, in sex, and possibly in magic.

If caught in raiding, captive boys may be treated like outlaws, although possibly just as another initiatory experience.

1 hour ago, radmonger said:

Queen of Cities has adulthood start with a visit to the Other Side in the Grace Temple, followed by 2 to 3 years service in either the militia, a temple or apprenticeship.

Does this apply to the 20k Sartarites (or Sartarite descended citizens) in Nochet, too? Symbolic "survival in the mountains" on Orlanth's Hill overlooking the Lyksos narrows doesn't quite seem to replace the preparations Vasana underwent, and spending a year in banditry in the Antones Estates sounds like a capital letters Bad Idea to me. (Suggesting that there are some groups in Nochet's underbelly doing just this...)

Any appearance of the WIld Hunt in Nochet would be highly disruptive, possibly a Sacred Time problem. Having local Gagarthi (possibly hanging out in the Antones Estates the rest of the year) as genuine bad boys for such rites might be advantageous over having to face the full Other Side impact or Orlanthi raider kings capitalizing on that role. (Possibly something Broyan might have done to overcome Hendira's rule?)

47 minutes ago, radmonger said:

There's certainly room for a bunch of additional sorcerous techniques that manipulate heroquests, some even in ways that won't get your soul eaten by Gift Bringers.

Sorcerous techiques for heroquesting? Sorcerous spells with some duration may be used to amp up the questers in ways that rune magic or battle magic cannot do, and "sorcerous" devices e.g. to capture spirits (like Pokeballs) are a thing (see Vadel loaning the Iron Energy Prison from the Mostali, and Zzabur coming up with the Bronze Energy Prison as the Malkioni home-made derivation thereof, starting the hostilities between the Brithini and the Mostali that led to the destruction of the Tadeniti and the revolt against the Kachisti.

But otherwise, other than enslaving lesser deities or spirits and negotiation with their greater kin (ransoming them?) there don't seem to be any remaining sorcerous techniques designed for heroquesting. Jrusteli heroquesting lore was re-engineered from Arkati secrets conquered in Tanisor, initially badly mis-understood. Theyalan Other Side knowledge was usurped in Slontos and Umathela while the Jrusteli methods seem to have been more esoteric, like the reduction to runes to provide tools to capture or overcome specific heroquest obstacles encountered when copying Arkati or Slontan natives' rites.

Foes of the God Learners like the Loper People start out as unmanageable while the sorcerers devise spells to identify their runic associations, then to devise spells weakening those runes or usurping the spirits or deities involved through brute power commands and/or summonings, or by faking Other Side identifications through spells providing approximates of typical Other Side protagonist powers. At some point the key advantages of these opponents get neutralized or even turned around on them, the Red Sword gets lost, and ultimately their leader gets overcome and the threat ended.

Fearing the Gift Bringers of the Sending Gods is a very Umathelan problem, contained by the Closing and never affecting the Slontan or Seshnegi God Learners. Slontos remained unaffected by the attentions of Halwal who apparently found counters to the God Learner holds on their Irensavalist or Arkati conquests, which may explain why Ramalia still "thrives" under its sorcerer kings. (If there was any generational change in Ramalian royalty at all since the Devastation of the Vent aided Slonta in rolling over.)

The Ramalians seem to have powerful magics against foes associated with the Sea or with Hykimi ancestral magics, and these magics might contain blueprints for other sorcerous control of Other Side foes, including proven techniques against followers of the Blue Moon (originally the Lopers) which might be brought to bear on the Lunar Empire. No idea whether Belintar's disciples ever got sent out to reconnoiter the Ramalian sorcerers, or if so, whether they succeeded in bringing back methods to counter Lunar advantages. History shows us that too little of that came into practical use too late, as Lunar heroquesting (championed by Jar-eel) pre-empted large scale use of any such knowledge, but a high magic campaign delving in stealing sorcerous knowledge might be built on this.

Following this line of development, God Learner-ish techniques are good for researching maguffins against core enemy powers to neutralize them in Other Side encounters.

Arkati techniques will more likely be based on feats of the many cults permeated by Arkat and his disciples, and superior mapping of intersecting mythic pathways. Arkati sem to have mastered genuine identification with the mythical protagonists where Jrusteli had mastered overpowering replication of such powers or specific neutralization of hostile feats and advantages.

At least that is how I conceive the influence of sorcerers on the Hero Wars, whether in the Dragon Pass arena or in Fronela and Ralios.

The one thing that is taboo about the Koryonos gangs is to attack their own (clan) kin. If these gangs are assembled by tribe or even city confederation, that immunity is extended to the contributors' communities.

To live as a bandit, to survive in the wild and to go on cattle and sheep raids is part of this "fly with the Vadrudi" experience.

Re-enacting the Tales of Tat and Tol definitely is an option in these years before the final adulthood rites. Quoting from Vasana's Apprenticeship:

Quote

Some even learned the mysteries of sex with women (some may have already learned the mysteries of sex with other young men).

The entire experience is an in-between status, which makes it both magical and attractive to the Godtime. The actual "Evil Uncles" and "Quest for the Star Heart" are just the finishing touches.

The main difference to joining Gagarth is that there is a way back into the orderly society, to become grounded in the business of farming, pursuing a craft, or following a great leader in a military or magical role.

In civilized urban Sartar, this procedure might seem positively Spartanic, and I wonder where Esrolian and especially Nochet boys are sent to undergo such an experience.

Outlawry is a required experience for Orlanthi adulthood - the Koryonos gangs undergone by intitiees. This is a stage of transgression by the youths (including making sexual experiences despite not being adults yet).

Don't overlook the omnipresent rivalries between the elemental tribes.

Darkness wants to eat whatever Earth has to offer, without regard for Earth's well-being.

Sea invaded Ernaldela during the Flood Age, and that may repeat.

Vadrus ravaged the lands, without any of the respect Umath may have had for his Earth wives. Followers of many of his sons wouldn't think much

Yelm usurped rule over the world from Earth (championed by Molandro), and this assault may be repeated. Lodril's wrestling underground was an assault, too.

And any foe of the regional husband protector (or Earth King) is a possible assault perp, too, proving the inability of the current protector(s) to protect.