jajagappa

32 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

The GRoY text is all ultimately suspect

Agree, and especially if you think that it conflates the stories/myths of:  Raibanth, Yuthuppa, Alkoth, Rinliddi, and Kostaddi at a minimum, and probably Darjiin, Hyalorings, and the Pentan horse riders.

53 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

Yelm the Rider riders ride flying creatures, specifically griffins? Not horses.

But who is the Horse Goddess?  The shorn form of Hippogriff, a flying creature.

I think there's a lot more lurking (and possibility) to this myth.

2 minutes ago, pachristian said:

You can be disabled - by loosing too many of your general hit points - without any single location being out of commission. This represents the cumulative effect of trauma, blood loss, and just good old-fashioned pain.

And conversely, you can have your left arm damaged to the point where it is useless (i.e. can't defend with your shield), but can continue to fight.

3 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

Retconning is inherently damaging

Not working to retcon anything in the Guide here, but there is room for detail and nuance. 

4 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

I imagine we can argue this out ad infinitum, but such minutiae are rarely satisfying.

Yes, that's very true.

48 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

the implications for the local culture are significant

Actually, no, it just means that the Lunar Empire rules Saird.  This is the center of the Lunar Provincial Administration and it will work to ensure its position both magically and physically, including refocusing rituals.  It's had 30+ years to do so.

Also, remember as I said, this is an in-progress map.  What time I've had over the past year+ has gone to Nochet, not the Saird material. 

36 minutes ago, David Scott said:

I have to disagree with you on this Martin. As @Jeff continually reminded me as I put too much detail in, the Guide is the view from 30000'. I would not take an omission in the Guide as it does not exist.

Agree with David here.  Plus, we will find/discover new details as we work through an area in greater detail. 

Also, there is no particular contradiction here.  Hyalor is the hero who emulated the deeds of Yelm the Rider and is the husband that folk call upon.  But as we see in Pavis book, it is Yelm who names and commands the Armless Howler.

From Update #34 on June 11:

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As for the other rewards: I finished the RQ Playtest Manuscript recently so it could be sent off to the printers this weekend, along with the 3 volumes of Unpublished materials for the top level backers. More on the rest soon.

Just now, David Scott said:

ToTRM wasn't all official is a better stance.

That too! :-)

4 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

It doesn't make any sense...

The temple was originally that of Beren/Hyalor and Redaylda.  But Beren/Hyalor at this temple have acquired the attributes of Yelm the Rider due to Lunar influence.  This is closely tied to the old myth of Yelm the Rider/Hyalor Horsebreaker.  This is a key aspect of Lunar control of Saird.  This temple holds at least some of the key artifacts in support of Appius Luxius and may include:  the Lasso (or Rope or Lash) of Hyalor, the Golden Bit, the Bridle of Domination, the Fire-woven Blanket, and the Chariot of Lightfore. These artifacts suppress the sovereignty of Redaylda.

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

I wonder whether these air assault shelters/flak constructs would reflect the ark architecture rather than the sky dome architecture.

Interesting thought!

4 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

A bit like the chariot races in Nochet, long documented in ToTRM suddenly just... disappearing.

Not everything fits.  The Esrolians are not a horse-based culture.

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

Against flyers and long-necked giant draconic entities, an architecture of wards (think protective circles in summoning) might be more effective, creating magical wards that deflect any attackers. These may be buildings, but also processional roads or canals.

We know that the Blue Dragon successfully penetrated the empire of Yelm/Murharzarm, so I'd expect such wards might be intended to deflect this approach.

51 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

The Guide mentions Redaylda and her husband Hyalor being revered in Mirin's Cross, but makes no direct mention of Yelm. I'd expect a temple to Redaylda and Hyalor at Mirin's Cross.

There may be one to Redaylda and Hyalor as well, but it was one Jeff wanted.  Good for making us Gloranthaphiles think. :-)

1 hour ago, M Helsdon said:

Nice.

 

I'd suggest that you need at least two Second Age maps of Domanand: before and after the EWF conquest.

 

Before: many 'Sun Domes' probably arranged in a circle.
After: one Sun Dome temple, and the ruins of many other domes - their ruins are still apparent in the modern city.

And perhaps also After: fall of EWF.

Thanks.

Agree that two 2nd Age maps really would be needed, possibly three (pre-EWF, EWF period, and Verenmars era).

I'm not sure that the Domes of Domanand need to be in a circle - I don't think they are necessarily 'Sun Domes' though perhaps they are.  There may well be other ritual patterns in use, particularly to invoke anti-Draconic powers.  Perhaps they fall into a pattern related to or to mirror the 2nd Age Sky.  There may well be dangers or vulnerabilities in attempting to recreate the Perfect Sky.

The 3rd Age map does show the few remnants of these ancient domes shown in pale grey.  Some of them were built over though such as the Dome of Verrogors.

1 hour ago, M Helsdon said:

The Guide says of Mirin's Cross in the Third Age: The city boasts Dara Happan towers (greatest being the Golden Temple of the Brilliant Pillar), Sun Dome temples, the great Lunar Temple of the Provincial Church, and a Temple of the Reaching Moon.

 

I'd also expect there to be temples to Redaylda and her husband Hyalor in the Second and Third Age, and perhaps to Yelorna in the Second Age, pre-EWF conquest.

Yes, you'll find quite a few DH towers on the 3rd Age map: Golden Temple of the Brilliant Pillar, the Twins, the Half-Dome Tower, and 7 Moon Tower.

I've only placed one main SD temple.  The High Temple was converted to the Citadel of the Seven Seals, part of the Lunar Admin.

Both the Provincial Church and the Temple of the Reaching Moon are present, as is the Temple to the Red Emperor and Red Goddess.

As for Redaylda, well you'll find her temple, but her husband there is Yelm the Rider. ;-) 

Of course, there is also Redaylda's Green across the Oslir, which is sacred to her.

RuneQuest Pi

3 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Mirin's Cross

Speaking of Mirin's Cross, here are my working maps for the site during 1st, 2nd (pre-Verenmars), and 3rd (current) Ages.  You'll note the varied changes in the river courses around the nearby hills and growth of the city.  It has expanded considerably over the last 40+ years as the center of the Lunar Provincial Admin.

2 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

I wonder who Mirin was?

My early Sairdite work suggested that the Mirinae were a 2nd Age tribe dwelling in the area named after an earlier figure named Mirin.  However, Jeff and I had a fair bit of discussion on the topic and the last we left off, these were our general conclusions:

• Mirin was a lieutenant of Alakoring who learned the secret of where to cross the Black Eel river
• Mirin overcame and captured a notable EWF leader in a battle of might and magic, and then crucified the important EWF notable here (hence the "Cross" instead of "Crossing").  From the list of the Dragons defeated by Saird (was one of Greg's old Myths of the Month items that I helped work on - not sure if still accessible), the Heart of Gold was a dragon which lurked in a golden tower in Mirin's Cross and may have been the EWF leader involved.
• Mirin subsequently claimed the city/site for his own and after the Cross was removed, he built an impressive monument here to mark the spot of his great duel.
• Imagery on each side showed Mirin's four great deeds.  The monument was topped with Mirin's image as well, though that's long gone now and much of the imagery has worn away.  But the monument (and city) has been popularly called Mirin's Cross since (though it's had a range of names over the years).

16 hours ago, David Scott said:

Speaking as someone writing a HeroQuest Glorantha book, the idea at the moment of doing an new edition RQ version is very daunting. Even the drop in pack seems like a lot of work to me. Naturally some one else could do it. Most of a HQG book is stat free so it would be stuff like cults, encounters, major NPCs and adventures that would be most if not all of the work. Stat blocks make me cringe ...

Having written a lot of stat blocks for my old unpublished RQ Imther material, I fully agree with David's opinion on them.

The Nochet material I'm working on is HQG, but any of the setting content should be fully usable with RQ.

17 hours ago, Ali the Helering said:

There is no reason to suppose that there is no cult of Yamsur, simply because he is dead and gone. 

Someone could try, but the problem is that Yamsur was destroyed/annihilated by chaos, so its far worse than just dying.  Any heroquest that attempts to find him will run into the hordes of chaos, likely with no recourse or escape - there isn't even a god there to save/aid them.

4 hours ago, GamingGlen said:

Scene 1: You are walking up a wooded hill when a small boulder rolls by.  Do you:

 

                a) give chase and jump over it                         

                b ) watch it roll away                                          

                c) follow it to see where it ends up                   

                d) run ahead of it and warn others                  

                e) go uphill to see where it came from            

                f) ignore it and continue on your way            

                g) run alongside and talk to it                           

                h) stop it in some manner    

I'd probably align it something like:

a - Movement; b - Death/Separation; c - Fate; d - Life; e - Truth; f - Illusion; g - Harmony; h - Stasis

You could also have: i) follow it and knock it aside (or similar); or knock another rock over and see what happens - Disorder.

4 hours ago, GamingGlen said:

Scene 2: You are hungry but recently caught a small fish.  Before you eat it you hear a noise and spot a bear eating berries on a bush.  All those berries will feed you more than the fish.  Do you:

 

                a) leave the fish so its smell will attract the bear away from the berries                  

                b ) kill the bear and eat fish and berries so you will be completely fed                     

                c) trade the fish to the bear so you can eat the berries                                                

                d) share the fish and berries with the bear                                                                     

                e) leave the fish and berries for the bear and go search for other food                    

                    f) eat the fish and leave the bear and berries alone  

I'd do something like:

a - Moon/Illusion; b - Storm/Death; c - Communication/Harmony; d - Earth/Harmony; e - Harmony?; Stasis.

There was a question raised on it in the old Glorantha Digest here: http://glorantha.temppeli.org/digest/gd2/1995.07/0086.html but there is no official answer.

And similar question 4 years later here: http://glorantha.temppeli.org/digest/gd7/1999.10/0816.html 

Peter Metcalfe suggested at the time: "I suppose Jaldon's Golden Horde having sacked all of Dragon Pass were looking for the way back to Prax. Having burnt all the signposts, they mistook the Upper Oslir for the Creekstream River and headed off in the wrong direction whereupon they were promptly devoured by a passing Red Dragon."

7 hours ago, Rick Meints said:

As for which ones are in the hopper, we have the Howling Tower, Miskander's Tower, and an Aldryami one.

I'd likely buy them in pdf format for ideas/inspiration.  I think the format works fine for those who want more of Classic RQ2.  They can be expanded on subsequently if it makes sense to do so.

22 hours ago, TRose said:

One thing I have always wondered about Sun Dome Temples is are they open to ALL worshippers of Yelmalio?

Generally I'd say yes - they would recognize this person as a man of Light and Truth.  Some differences in customs amongst the temples, but likely more at either the 'political' level or the level of common austerities (i.e. shared geases).

22 hours ago, TRose said:

For example if two Darra Happa families are engaged in a Dart War can  a truce be declared and have both sides worship at the Local Temple before trying to kill each other in a polite civilized manner?

The DH families would likely be worshipping Yelm rather than Yelmalio, otherwise you'd be pretty low on the scale of nobility.  But in the Provinces where you still have clan feuds, they would likely declare a truce for worship at the Local Temple and within whatever the boundaries are for the temple lands (similar to how both the Orlmarth and Greydogs come to the Feast of Beasts at Clearwine in SKoH).  I'm sure Yelmalio would blind the instigators of any who violate such a truce as it would be violating their oaths to the god.

50 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

I fear that Sairdite myths are thoroughly corrupt in that they've taken local and foreign sources over centuries to create a local syncretic form...

And they are nowhere near as bad as the thieving Vanchites!

But, yes, Saird has been awash in local and then overlapping waves of Orlanthi, DH, Lunar, and even Praxian and Pentan sources across at least 12 centuries.  In most places Yelmalio is the recognized figure except scattered Vanchite settlements and some of the Imtherian clans. 

Btw, I've sent you some material to the email address of yours that I have.

It means that not only do you take on the results of a hit point location being exceeded (arm useless, leg damaged so that you must fall), but you can no longer fight or move or, presumably, take offensive action.  You can cast the Healing spell on yourself as one option if you can touch the wounded location.  I'd say that to recover, you need to restore the limb to 0 or positive HPs.  A 3pt limb can take 6pt of damage.  Healing 2 is needed to stop bleeding. But you'd probably need at least Healing 3 to put you at 0pts, or Healing 4 to put you back at 1pt.

The only way not to be incapacitated with this damage is with something like the Minotaur's Battle Rage.  With that, you can keep fighting until you drop.

1 hour ago, M Helsdon said:

a history of Saird (and the Sun Dome Temples)

There's a fair bit of material on Saird, Vanch, and Imther - some in development for an HQG book on the region, some published in the fanzines (NLG, TotRM, Enclosure, and Codex particularly), some prepared for publication but never released (mostly Imther), some worked on with Greg and Jeff (Verenmars Saga, Kings of Saird), and a lot of other material on Vanch, Imther, and Sylila.  But there's also a lot that's not done and plenty to work on.

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Peralam appears to translate as Hill of Gold according to GRoY, page 30

Yes, correct.

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Heliacal seems to now be Yelmalio based on the entry for New Lolon

Well maybe, maybe not.  Heliacal was certainly one of the Many Suns and his Seat of Judgment was at Lolon.  But the Seat of Judgment was broken and lost, most likely carted off by the DH.  He is likely equated now with Yelmalio.  But if you use his myths instead of Yelmalio's you probably won't get the same result.

On 6/9/2016 at 2:40 PM, M Helsdon said:

What's really annoying me is I'm certain I read about Jaldon's Wrong River somewhere many years ago - before I owned anything other than Chaosium RQ books & boxed sets. Can I find the reference now? Nope.

Maybe it'll turn up when the pdf's for the early RQ books are finished.

23 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

It's possible where the two lists differ, you are giving the local names?

Yes, these are intended to be the local names familiar through Saird and the Lunar Provinces.  Part of a Saird book for HQG that's in development (and largely on hold until I get done with material on Nochet).

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Would be interested in seeing that, please.

Here are some of them.  Bear in mind that these were built out post-Guide in discussion with Jeff, but have not gone through any further editing.

White Rock Temple (Sun Dome)

This is one of the Sun Dome Temples of the Yelmalio cult and it sits at a key site along the Daughter’s Road.  Many consider this to be the greatest of the existing Yelmalion temples, and it certainly dominates the land south of the Jader and east of the Oslir, particularly along the Daughter’s Road which the Templars help guard.   Nearby is the famed White Rock and below it, the great Salt Quarry where the Sun of the Son defeated and burned away a fearsome water god that advanced against the Empire of the Sun. 

The temple bustles with activity, preparing for the trials their Count Yugathus and the Sun Lord Herkanthos see coming in the days and years ahead.  The Queen of White Rock is chosen by the Count from three candidates selected by the Queen of Holay from within the Bell Temple.  The candidates bear the Three Sacred Fruits to the ceremony.  Whichever is chosen by the Count, her fruit is blessed within the surrounding lands until her passing.

True Sky Sun Dome

This Yelmalio Sun Dome temple in the hills between Little Cafol and Thubana defends Sylila from the Orlanthi barbarians. The cult supplies the satrap with disciplined pikemen.

The Count of this Sun Dome cannot be married, and must sever his bonds with his wife if he is married upon his ascension.  The Counts must maintain a ritual purity ever after, aided by a Priest of Enverinus who represents the lost power of Fire.

Zalan’s Sun Dome

The farmlands between the Zalador Hills and the Oslir River are defended against trolls, bandits, and raiders by this Sun Dome Temple.  It fiercely defends its independence, until the right price comes along, at which point the inhabitants of military age become dedicated mercenaries.

When an old Count dies, a new Count is chosen from the unmarried leaders and he departs for Filichet at the end of his first Seaseason.  There, the Queen of Filichet selects a Queen for the new Count and the two are married within the Bell Temple on the first day of Fireseason.  The path taken upon their return to Zalan’s Dome is marked by beautiful sunflowers which rise in their wake.

Peralam and the Hill of Gold

The small city called Peralam sits just north of the Daughter’s Second Road near the Hill of Gold, and it is the most important place of pilgrimage for the cult of Yelmalio. It was here that Yelmalio was sorely wounded by another god, lost his weapons, and bled his power upon the earth before he rose again in Cold Light. The Glacier stopped right at the Hill of Gold, held off by Yelmalio’s blinding and unwavering light. No physical structure exists on the top of hill, although many temples can be found in the nearby city which prospers from the visiting pilgrims.  Normal folk stay away from the lurking shadows, the chilling air, the gusty winds, and hard-eyed warriors that haunt the great hill itself.

Herganor was the priest of Antirius who came to bring justice to Vanch after Mahzanelm's death.   Herganor went to the Hill of Gold and on that way met a Tunoraling.  This was Ronoran, Chief of Bikhy, and Ronoran revealed the mask of Tunoral called Kemel the Dutiful.  This revelation sparked Herganor to build a temple of Antirius in Vanch in which Kemel could serve.  This temple was named Peralam and was fashioned in the shape of a dome, but not set upon a square, and its compound was walled without gates and had steps to go up to enter.   Now this temple supports Yelmalio, but still Kemel the Dutiful serves there, forever following his lord.  This is the closest Yelmalio temple to the Hill of Gold though other deities are worshipped here as well such as Antirius and Heliakal, the latter called the Doomed by the Vanchites.

East of the Hill of Gold towards Bikhy are the Darkcrow Woods.  Here Tunoral and Khelmal met after their retreat from the Hill of Gold where Heliakal fell.  Here the two quarreled over the remains of Heliakal.  From here, Khelmal went east towards the mountains carrying the Torch and the Shield.  From here, Tunoral went south into Raccoon’s Deep carrying the Mantle and the Eyes.  As to the question of who won the quarrel, this is still debated by Vanchites and Imtherians.  These woods are dark and brooding.  The sounds of crows sporadically interrupt the otherwise ominous silence.  And there is always a feeling of being watched.  Outlaws and criminals gather here, hiding from those who seek them.