jajagappa

23 minutes ago, SDLeary said:

That’s a bit extreme.

Not really - no different than anyone else dying.

One problem I often see if considering the fetch as a distinct and separate spirit. It isn't - it is part of the shaman. It may be easier to think of the fetch as a distinct hit location - just one that can mostly be targeted on the Spirit Plane.

3 minutes ago, pachristian said:

We have a secret strategy to deal with the bat.

Run like hell!

Smart strategy! But watch out for the blood...

5 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

But when a river flows uphill, then you end up with a lot of water further up. But then what happens to it?

Well, there's only one that still flows uphill, and there's an easy answer to that. There's a hole to the Underworld in Heel Lake in the middle of the Footprint! 

In what I've written on the Footprint, there the water of the Syphon "falls" up and over the rim of the lake and then swirls around in a gyre (washing away some of the Chaos in the process) and then funnels into a great drop all the way to Hell and back to the Styx (returns to the first source of the waters). Sometimes Hell creatures manage to swim up the great falls and into Heel Lake, then follow the Syphon to its headwaters to spawn. These hell-sourced devil and demonfish are not necessarily chaotic, but they are dangerous - and probably getting more so since the demise of Belintar to keep them in check. (One of the reasons the Fish Road went to Heel Lake was so that the God-king could perform rituals to the most ancient of Sea Gods there.) 

40 minutes ago, pachristian said:

(Game is set in early 1618 - we headed out of the city on our next mission as Lunar forces approached to lay siege to the place). 

Hopefully you won't be there when the Bat arrives! 

1 minute ago, pachristian said:

That's exactly what I needed to know. Interesting question about Maiden Castle. I assumed it was inspired by Bronze Age Jerusalem

Certainly similar form! (But in actuality, I didn't make use of any existing cities during design.)

6 hours ago, Aelex said:

thinking about the tragic end that met King Broyan of Whitewall, is there any sourcematerial about how exactly he was killed?

There's a few sources, and there are some variances as to exactly what killed him, but generally it is either a Darkness or Lunar demon which fell upon and killed him and destroyed a good part of his army. 

The Guide p.732 notes: "With his army, King Broyan prepared to march on the New Lunar Temple." (I.e. Broyan planned to destroy the temple before it was completed, then likely intended to capture Boldhome and liberate Sartar.)

King of Sartar p.125: "In Kethaela, King Broyan marched north with a small volunteer army. Among the Kitori, a little bright light was snuffed out, and a demon which had many sharp mouths was let out of its skin. It sought vengeance, and fell upon the army of King Broyan while they slept. The king could not keep it away, because he had betrayed the City of Wonders, and he was killed there, with his army."

Glorantha Sourcebook p.206 adds: "Broyan was acclaimed King of Kethaela in 1624, but was killed by Lunar magic in 1625 before he could liberate Dragon Pass."

6 hours ago, Aelex said:

And what happened to the Sword and Helm of Vingkot after King Broyan was killed?

Most likely returned to Vingkot in the Gods World (possibly after being consumed by the demon). As these could only be worn/wielded by an heir of Vingkot, which Broyan had proved he was, no one else would be able to use their powers if they were physical artifacts. Quite possibly they are not physical artifacts, though, but Rune powers that could manifest upon/within a specially and ritually prepared sword and helm. 

4 hours ago, svensson said:

This map has been superseded by a newer map in the GMs Pack.

Otherwise, no I don't know what the topo contour line scale is. This map was probably designed with an eye to the Celtic hillfort called Maiden Castle in Dorset, England. Wiki link below.

The Whitewall map has not yet been published - it is part of the in-queue Heortland and Whitewall material I wrote.

The map was not based on Maiden Castle - I designed from an initial sketch Jeff put together.

5 hours ago, pachristian said:

I know I'm late to this party - but what is the separation of the elevation lines? How high above the river are the walls?

The contour lines are 50m per increment. The north end is 400m above the valley while the south end reaches 500m above the valley.

The walls are up to 10 meters high and 5 meters thick.

2 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

My vague recollection about Pennel Ford  is that Harrek attacked Greymane and his army when they turned their coats. 

Yes, he was so enraged that he marched right across the center of the battlefield to get to the traitors, leaving destruction in his wake (but also opening up one whole position to Lunar attacks behind him).

16 hours ago, g33k said:

The Syphon river flows backwards -- "up"river (whatever that means in this context).
That would seem to make the river an extraordinarily-valuable route for commerce to the interior of Heortland.

Or is it too problematic, with Chaos/etc genuinely hosted there?  Or am I missing something else preventing such use?

Also -- is it a saltwater river, as it flows up from the sea?  Or is this a magic-Glorantha-thing, where the salt / brack / fresh regions are similar to other rivers (and earthly logic is shown the door)?

As the trade centers are Karse and Lylket/Durengard, we can reasonably conclude there are reasons that the Syphon and consequently Backford are not viable for commerce/trade, despite the Fish Road. 

(And yes it is absolutely saltwater through the Stone Woods, and its salt content helps keep Chaos in check - e.g. gorp don't like high salt concentrations. The folk of Backford take advantage of the saltwater to capture water at high tide/current and then let it dry to get the salt for trade, so there is decidedly trade from Backford.)

My general conclusions as to why the Syphon doesn't work for trade:

• dangerous rocks and eddies at the "headwaters" (i.e. where it branches from the Mirrorsea) that largely prevent passage of large draft ships/boats
• a very weird "downstream" current that "rolls" downstream and creates a constant up-and-down motion for boats traveling towards Backford
• a very strong "downstream" current that makes going "upstream" or back to the Mirrorsea nearly impossible except via the Fish Road
• the Fish Road itself is passable and varies between being above water when the tide is out and below water when the tidal bore pushes inland - it does allow breathing of air/water due to its magic but its width may be quite constrained and is very turbulent around the sides
• the Fish Road is designed to reach the Heel Lake in the Footprint for magical rituals, and of course the Syphon plunges there down into the Underworld - you need to time it right so the current is slowing by Backford so you're not carried past and into the Stone Wood or the Footprint itself
• while most Chaos creatures are stopped by the magic of the Stone Wood, there are creatures that swim up from the Underworld, pass Heel Lake and then continue "upstream" into Heortland. These include various devilfish and demons that aren't chaotic per se, but still dangerous.

2 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

So who are the heirs of Greymane?

Two sons were noted, but both are killed (along with Greymane) at the Battle of Pennel Ford. 

With their deaths, I think the Solanthi rule over that region collapses and you return to feuding Ditali and Solanthi tribes (probably those who opposed or disliked Greymane come to power). 

While Greymane ruled, the Trader Princes undoubtedly paid tribute to Greymane to pass through. With his demise, the Trader Princes likely try to reassert control over the local tribes and clans.

1 hour ago, Snugz said:

Or, is there something I've missed?

No, think you've found what there is. Now, somewhere in the West around that region you have the "Hate Kills Everything" battle between Wakboth and Kajabor, so that might have altered or influenced its form, but otherwise you're looking at something during the Storm Age, possibly as the Storm Gods drove back the Floods and the Sea Gods.

4 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

who is talking ? the "we" seems to demonstrate he is a companion of Oddi. Probably someone who trusted Oddi.

Paulus Longvale, a Lunar, is the narrator, as he is throughout the texts in Cults of Terror.

42 minutes ago, svensson said:

2. I'm hoping that Jar-Eel and Aelwin's situation becomes more clear when the Lunars Gods book comes out this month. I don't perceive them having much of a shaman component at all, but I might be wrong.

I've not seen any indication to date that we'll see anything detailed on Jar-eel, Beatpot, or the Moonsword cult. 

Since Jar-eel is the Red Goddess' avatar in the world, I agree that she's not shaman per se, but I think any Hero Cult will function very similar to a shamanic Spirit Cult. Jar-eel needs power and worship to do the things she does. Beatpot and the Moonsword cult provide that worship and allow her the ability to regularly engage in the Otherworld and deal with threats there. But she likely leads a group of companions most of the time (might be Beatpot, might be others) in her forays both mundane and magical.

My point with her was simply that a shaman and their community can function similarly - moving about, going where threats exist (as perceived by the shaman or their spirit guides), conducting the worship necessary to allow the shaman to deal with spirits and lead spirit cult worship, etc. (and still effectively be adventurers).

7 minutes ago, Runeblogger said:

I didn't, so I'm not sure what is going to happen in my campaign and my group of PCs adventuring in Pavis, Prax and the Big Rubble in 1620 when they all become runelords. I guess the Vingan and the Humakti could decide to liberate Pavis from the Lunars, but the Veskarthan/Lodril initiate, the Aldryami, and the Agimori shaman who is looking for the members of his clan who were sold into slavery all over Prax... 🤔 I guess we'll need to figure it out! 😜 (Any suggestions are welcome!)

Look to Argrath and the Sartar Magical Union!  Whether the Eleven Lights, the Snakepipe Dancers, or any other SMU unit, these are a group of rune lords, shamans, and other magic wielders who have found a common cause to work together which is exemplified by their wyter (which is the spirit at the center of their community). 

2 hours ago, g33k said:

They don't really want to become stay-at-home PC's.  I think PhilHibbs' comments here are entirely valid -- the rules (so far) don't seem to support adventuring Shaman-Priests (and, FWIW many other Priest/Priestess characters adventuring instead of "settling down" as Community Leaders and chairpeople of the local PTA)

A Community does not have to be settled, nor does the Shaman-Priest, but they need to interact if the shaman-priest is to deliver their promises of worship to the spirits they have allied. The White Bull horde is ready to go everywhere that Argrath goes. The Wolf Pirates are constantly on the move. Even the Company of the Dragon could be a roving mercenary band. The problem in all these cases is logistics - they do have to be fed, they do need shelter. If the community is small enough, then travelling via caravanserai's, or pitching tents, is workable. 

2 hours ago, g33k said:

Jar-Eel wanders all over the WBRM map, and Argrath & Harrek circumnavigate the world.

Yes, but Jar-eel must support and is supported by the Moonsword cult (as directed by Aelwrin who is effectively her shaman-priest). Similarly, Argrath has to lead and support the Whitebull cult, and Harrek his Wolf Pirates. They are not isolated individuals, and when they go into the Otherworld or battle, they likely go with Companions. 

I think the challenge is that you have to shift the focus. It is no longer a wandering adventurer, but the shaman-priest has to become the leader of their Community.  There is something of a model for this with the JC book Company of the Dragon. 

It also means that one player, the shaman-priest, must come to terms with being the full leader of the community, and the GM needs to direct issues at the shaman-priest that create conflicts to deal with: multiple foes/villains (both mundane and in the Spirit World), ensuring worship is conducted, ensuring the demands of the spirits are met, addressing challenges from other Waha shaman-priests, the calls from Eiritha priestesses for aid, etc.

I'd largely avoid the income issue as a bookkeeping headache and abstract it, but the shaman-priest also is now responsible for feeding, sheltering, and ensuring the protection of the community. They can take all the "income" for themselves, but there will be constant demands by the assistant shamans, the guards, etc. which will force the shaman-priest to either spend the income for the community or face desertion by the community.

2 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

any way to change title?

Yes, edit the original post. You can change the thread title when you do.

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4 hours ago, Rick Meints said:

So what do people think of the book?

Love it! Was just browsing through it again a week ago - I particularly enjoy the Things that Never Were sections.

57 minutes ago, g33k said:

Otter is one of the Hsunchen "First Four Companions;" do they name this Otter?

I think they name it "Otter"! (All references to the First Four Companions go by the animal's name: Turtle, Loon, Otter, and Sea-eagle)

59 minutes ago, g33k said:

where else are they found (in canon, or in the JC)?

Guide p.361: New Fens: A large marsh created when Slontos was destroyed. It is inhabited by newtlings, giant semi-intelligent otters,...

Guide p.640: Enkloso (Umathela) - Palau River: This wild river drains the eastern Enkloso Forest. It was inhabited by reptilian lascerdans until 475 and their colossal stone sculptures, called huvenvu by the Umathelans, are arranged along the banks. The Palau is rich with animal life, including alligators and manatees in the lower reaches, beavers and giant otters in the upper reaches. [No mention whether these otters are intelligent or not.]

There are no references to Hsunchen Otter people in the guide, but I do believe they exist in the Children of Hykim book.

48 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Dont they look to Top of the World as their primary sacred site rather than Kero Fin as well? Or is that a generalisation?

Orlanthi look to the closest Storm Mountain during their celebrations (e.g. if you're in Imther, you look towards Giant Top Mountain). During holy day ceremonies, the nature of the God-time is to bring all the Storm Mountains into view so that you can fly from one to another. Ultimately, you'll fly to either Top of the World or Kero Fin - they are both sacred to Orlanth (Kero Fin as his birthplace, Top of the World as his home).

2 hours ago, ajs said:

ANy idea when the link has gone? I'm interested in the maps

Probably one of these:

Dragon Pass Maps – The Well of Daliath (chaosium.com)

Core homelands Maps – The Well of Daliath (chaosium.com)

Esrolia Sketch Maps – The Well of Daliath (chaosium.com)

4 hours ago, Malin said:

Anyway...  for me, the books really struck a chord, in so many ways. The main character was one reason, I think these were the first book I read where I realized that I wasn't supposed to like or sympathize with the protagonist, which was such a freeing experience.

While I couldn't like either Thomas Covenant or Linden Avery, I enjoyed reading the books (later tried the third series, though, and gave up about 1.5 books into it).

4 hours ago, Malin said:

I would still never use the world as a setting.

I've found some interesting aspects to it that I have drawn on (not the whole setting but pieces). In particular the behavior and effects of the Sunbane from the 2nd series works well for portraying a Chaos Nest or places in the Wastes. The Sarangrave Flat could be drawn upon for the Bleak Shore or Mosquito Marsh/Defender's Shore with their high cliffs behind. (But as a whole setting, no, wouldn't try to do so.)