metcalph

p43 I must confess the name of Jraktal the Tap doesn't do much for me.  It kind of implies that the Gods of Fonrit are associated with household appliances such as bathtub or kitchen sink.  Jraktal the Stealer of Souls say, would have been far more evocative to me.  Likewise the description of him as a Western Demon sticks out as a obvious God Learnerism.  A Vadeli demon might have been more accurate.

p44 I like the Benin appearance of the Fonritan soldier (looking it up I see the Benin Empire was originally ruled by the Ogisu dynasty - ha ha!).  It looks so much more interesting that the Barbary Coast model originally proposed for Fonrit.

p45 mention of flaunting the Chaos Rune on the sidebar of the Fonritan Sorcerors appearance is the first clue that Fonrit is an Awesomely Bad Place.

p46 on the topic of what the Artmali were like before Garangordos, the description of Selarn is suggestive.  Founded in the Great Darkness and having survived the harsh government and secret police of their rulers for centuries suggests at least one Artmali place had such traditions.

Just noticed that Antirius is not on the list of Pelorian Deities p41--42.

1 hour ago, davecake said:

The division of the Dara Happan upper classes into Witnesses and Officers was new to me (or at least, I don't recall it). 

Technically they are "Old Families" discovered by the New Light reforms and mentioned in the Fortunate Succession.  But I suppose the Yelmic aristocracy must have found it very difficult to say Old Families with a straight face and so the phrasing Witnesses and Officers stuck instead.

10 hours ago, Joerg said:

Avivath was a street sweeper of noble blood, and quite likely a citizen. Half citizens were originally (under Vuranostrum) a different ethnicity admitted into the Dara Happan cities.

On the other hand, Plentonius could have simply been polishing up Avivath's (and Khordavu's) ancestors.  

p38 Although the Lod-Plow has been mentioned before, it is described for the first time as a fire-hardened stick.

p39 the term "noblesse oblige" crops up here and immediately invokes unwanted medieval associations.

p39 I may be missing something but by my calculations to make the population table make sense, the 3.9 million Dara Happans also includes the 500K lunars of the Silver Shadow and the People of Dara Ni and Rist (judging by the Satrapal population breakdowns)

p42 Herustana is listed as a patron deity of Yuthuppa.  Elsewhere the Patron is named as Thilla.  It seems the two are synonymous.

p42 An interesting division between the Priests of Yelm who sacrifice for Yelm and the Priests of Envirinus who sacrifice for the Permitted Cults.

p42.  The Lodrili are forbidden to read.

p42.  The description of the many Lodrii cults is interesting but I would have preferred a list of names as examples (ie Turos, Deshlotralas, Gerendetho).

Based on what's been said about Ethilrist, Hungry Jack lives (or lived) in the Mislari Mountains.  The primary source for this is the RuneQuest Companion where Ethilrist describes a fight between himself and the monster while having a simultaneous dick-waving contest with Keener Than.  The Guide itself mentions a crossing of the Mislari Mountains on p364 which was last attempted over a century ago by Ethilrist.

2 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Isn't this one of the cases of We Tried That Already in the Doraddi section? The Doraddi had Tishamto, an urban culture, during the rise of the Artmali Empire, and I see little evidence of the Artmali destroying those cities. The Praxian MAAH would have come from this urban culture, too - their warrior elite.

No.  Tishamto lay east of the Nargan.  There's another urban civilization - Bodenen ma Tama "the ruins of the sun"  in Kothar p595 which is practically unknown to the Doraddi of Jolar.  The Zuama culture lay north of the Fensi would have been even more out of sight, out of mind to the Doraddi.  "We Tried That Already" tales are listed for places within Jolar (Where Men Always Fart, Moving Sands and Banini Lake).  

Secondly the Artmali did conquer Tishamto whereupon it was destroyed by Pamalt in the Firefall.  It doesn't fit the nature of the "We Tried That Already" in which the flaw is apparent as soon as they tried that.

2 minutes ago, Joerg said:

 

I agree that there was a second Age of migrations (after the first migration of the Mountain Peoples families to the four camps), but I don't see them as a single migration group.

The first migration of the Mountain Peoples is a God Learner fiction unworthy of attention.   The relevant passage on Borderlands and Beyond does make it clear that it was a migration to fight chaos which suggests a large horde rather than successive waves.  The Pithdarans also came in a single migration for what it's worth.,

2 minutes ago, Joerg said:

I wondered about the Teleosi, too, and I am with you in giving them a migration history that may have touched Loral. While the Fonritians clearly recognize a racial difference between the Garangordite, Doraddi-descended immigrants and the dark-skinned folk of Thinokos (and Kimos, Maslo and Kumanku), they still are labeled as Agimori racial type. Those types (which are also applied to the Hsunchen of the continent) aren't defined by direct ancestry.

The Gargandites are not descended from the Doraddi.  They are an Agimori nation who have their roots in Laskal.  The Doraddi have their roots in Kothar at the Dawn and expanded westwards.  Doraddi is not and should not be considered a synonym for Agimori.

2 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Looking at their distribution, I would expect a greater similarity between Pamaltelan Fiwan Hsunchen and Masloi than between the Fiwan and the Doraddi. Their creation stories share more similarities than those of the southern folk (Hoolar, Jelmre, Pelmre and Agitorani).

Stylistically I would avoid throwing labels together.  The Fiwan are Hsunchen who live in Pamaltela so there's little point in referring to them as the Pamaltelan Fiwan Hsunchen.  Since we don't have Fiwan creation tales, I doubt that one can say that their creation stories have more similarities between them and the Masloi as opposed to the Doraddi.  If anything, I would expect the Veldt Fiwan to have similar creation tales to the Doraddi and the coastal Fiwan (Maslo and Laskalians) to have similar creation tales to the Thinobutans and Coastal Agimori).

2 minutes ago, Joerg said:

This makes me inclined to have the Teleon folk - all of whom are of normal size - of mostly Thinobutan ancestry rather than having ties to the Men-and-a-Half. They might have some Artmali admixture, but that goes for the Thinobutans as a whole. Waertagi admixture would be more recent, and limited to Maslo.

The Teleono can have Men-and-a-Half ancestry quite easily ("in the old days, our forefathers were much taller and didn't need to drink water").  Just because they don't have those traits now does not mean that their ancestors never ever had them.

2 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Also because of the well documented breeding problems of the Men-and-a-Half. I don't see any chance for finding any half-breed descendants of the Men-and-a-Half anywhere outside the Doraddi-descended lands, and even there extremely rare. Not that bachelor warriors would absolutely abstain from intimacy with local women, but those wouldn't be magically eligible for conception.

Again this is a leap too far.  The problem for the Men-and-a-half was to have children AND to retain their great height.  They weren't incapable of reproduction. I would go so far as to suggest that the Impala people are descendants of the Men-and-a-half (they have dark skins and fire rune kinship for example).  Their ancestors were men-and-a-half who decided to abandon completely their traditional discipline to have drink water and have lots of kids.  As a result they became very small.  Then came the Great Darkness after which they took up the survival covenant which obliterated the magical potency of their ancestral relations to the Men-and-a-half.

2 minutes ago, Joerg said:

It strikes me as fairly funny that the archetypical phallic deity is at a loss how to make children. What did his followers do with their phalli before?

One could borrow from the Old Testament and have a myth about ripping out their penis bones to make mates for themselves.

6 minutes ago, David Scott said:

Even if there is an equivalent to the Praxian Agimori in Pamaltela, the Praxians have diverged even further from their southern brethren. In order that they could reproduce, after a long quest, 

The most surprising divergence is that the southern Brethern were city-dwellers.  I really see the migration of the Men-and-a-half as being one large migration - not just their mythical ancestors but also the people of Thinobutu and related lands.  After a trek that took the many peoples through Loral (whose descendants were eaten by the Monsters), Teleos (whose descendants underwent some chromatic change - the Guide p523 says they seem similar to the Agimori) and possibly Churanpur and Teshnos, the Men-and-a-half are IMO the only survivors of that migration who survived the great battles at the end of it.

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

On the question of the identity of their god in Prax, I wonder whether they have a strong link to the planet Tolat, whose god is notably absent from the Pamaltelan pantheon even though we know that he was active there during the early Artmali Empire (but not in the defence of the Artmali empire against Vovisibor).

The Red Planet is known to the Doraddi as the celestial home of Balumbasta (Guide p647)

12 hours ago, davecake said:

The description of the Men-And-A-Half here is more complete than in Pavis, and confirms that they are a significant departure from the human norm - not just big and strong, but requiring less sustenance. In RQ they were a little fireproof too. The question is, do they still exist in Pamaltela? Presumably there they would be a separate tribe who revere Balumbasta (who I'm presuming is the same as Baba Ulodr). 

They do.  But in Laskal rather than the Veldt!

Quote

Deshmador (small city):  [...] The inhabitants claim to be pureblooded descendants of the original Man and Woman, and they stand taller than most men (although they claim their ancestors were taller still and needed neither water
nor food). They are ruled by a gerontocracy of family heads, the eldest of whom is the ruler and called the Baba Kroos. They revile Garangordos as a devil.

Guide p560

 

Quote

Oron (small city): The Rock of Oron has been inhabited since ancient times. The inhabitants, who are strikingly tall like the people of the Zuama river valley, claim that their ancestors sailed off in the Gods War to fight Bolongo after he fled Pamalt. Ruins of a much greater city litter the coast near Oron.

Guide p569

Quote

Zuama River: This river rises high in the Mari Mountains and drains the Moino Jungle. It meanders through eastern Laskal, forming a rich alluvial plain between the jungle and the sea. The people here tend to be significantly taller than other Fonritians.

Guide p573

16 hours ago, jrutila said:

I am having mixed messages with Doraddi religion. They worship Pamalt pantheon but their religion is shamanic. There was in some older HeroQuest book about this mixed, weird magic where animist way of magic was used to interact with gods. I don't remember the term but is this now something like that?

The phraseology was misapplied magic and it no longer exists.  Pamalt is a God but his worshippers prefer to do much of his magic in the form of spirits (like Storm Bull and Waha).  

The most noteworthy passage in this section was reference to a High Shamanic Ideal involving the _integration_ of spirits.  While it would be something that a God Learner would say, I feel the jargon doesn't really tell us anything (and the usage of integration is downright misleading to survivors of the Hero Wars period and would be better understood as acquiring a relationship with a spirit).  I would instead say that a Doraddi feels obliged to care for his spirits in the same way that Pamalt (or whoever his patron God is) cares for him.  

5 hours ago, David Scott said:

Is her Alone last name out in print?

I presume you are asking if the reason why she is called Alone is out in print?  Not as far as I'm aware.

The most surprising statement for me in this section was the appearance of Babeester Gor as a minor deity among the Praxians.  Presumably this refers to the Axe Sisters that once belonged to the cult of Eiritha?

A possible theory.

The Lost Chapter in 2nd Edition King of Sartar mentions Vingkot fighting against a Brown Sanak Gorolfsson p137, who is a Son of Summer and the ancestor of the Tarshites who rescued them from the Rebel Gods.

Now this is undoubtedly the Son of Gorolf the Brown (or Goralf Brown) who is identified in the Book of Heortling Mythology as husband of Vestene and founder of the Vestantes of south Aggar.  So Vingkot is supposedly fighting against his own grandson who has married his grandmother and Vingkot's wife?  

A better explanation might be lie in Brown Sanak's title as the Sun of Summer.  What if he was the leader of the Summer Tribes who were opposed to the Winter Tribes led by Vingkot (forget the standard interpretation of the ten tribes of the Vingkotlings for the moment)?  

Now the On Jorri are said to be to be by people not born from Storm Tribe kinship (Book of Heortling Mythology p75).  If the Summer Tribes are originally unrelated opponents of the Storm Tribe then could they then be the On Jorri? In which case Janerra Alone's story would mark their acceptance of the ways of the Storm Tribe.

So to return to your question, where does Janerra come from?  The Summer Tribes are said to be the Kodigvari, the Vestantes, the Koroltes and the Orgovaltes.  I'm tempted to associate her with the city of Alone (in Orgovaltes territory) as they would have problems with the darkmen (which was Janerra's motivation for seeking help from Orlanth).

Which map are you looking at?  Book of Heortling Mythology or?

5 hours ago, Drad said:

Hi All,

Dont forget the City Harmony spell which is working in all of Pavis County. Our Pavis PC used it and the situation was ended peacefully. That is a big game changer compared to the Sartar mainland.

The City Harmony spell only works within the Rubble and New Pavis (Cults of Prax p50).  Likewise the HeroQuest equivalent (Harmony of the Parts Pavis: Gateway to Adventure p366) is part of the Master of the Faceless King Grimoire that only works within the walls of Pavis.

Most of the material in this section I had read before as it was part of the William Dunn's introduction in the Genertela boxed set.

The Middle World of Glorantha despicted in the Cosmology of Glorantha p10 was for me the biggest thing to geek over.  The map is undoubtedly that of the Dawn (I'm not too fazed about the presence of the Red Moon as it being unseen in the Sky before 1220 is an idea that's cropped up in some Gregly writings).  The detail is not perfect (for example, the western rockwoods don't quite mesh up with their known geography) so other deviations from today's glorantha may just be an artifact.

Jrustela and Brithos are intact.  

A large island exists southeast of Teshnos, northeast of Teleos and west of Vormain.  This is probably Churanpur which was described as being in the area during the Gods War but later vanished with the Transitory Empire.  Joerg's idea that it could be Kylerela is intruiging but a real nifty idea for me would be that the island is *both* Churanpur *and* Kylerela.  In other words, the demons blighting Vormain and Teshnos were Esrolians.

There are two large islands of the coast of northwestern Kralorela.  They look markedly different from the islands that currently exist.  They may be intended to be Sortum and the Kang Islands.  If so, it's notable that the Zeven Islands are not shown on the map.

The northernmost eastern island (the one just infringing into the Middle World) is not shown on current maps.  The borders of the Middle World in the eastern isles seem to be much further westward than currently is the case (compare mainland Vithela/Vithalash on the p10 map with now).  Hence it is my belief that this is the Zeven Islands, almost a continent and that some catastrophe has sunk its core.

The biggest thing about Pamaltela is that there is no Nargan.  Instead bordering the Sea of Flame is a massive swamp and a yellow elf forest.  Now the Nargan is shown on God Learner mythic maps so there seems to be a problem.  However the God Learner maps are not infallible (see for example the Heron Hegemony which is actually in Darjiin).  My best guess is that the Nargan existed but expanded in the Dawn wiping out the swamp and the woods so that when the God Learners arrived they thought its then extent was what it always had been.

A more interesting point is that two of the Pamaltela woods are jungles.  Prior writings was that all elf forests in the Gray Age/early Dawn were Green Elf Forests until the Browns and Yellows revolted and cast them down in Aldrya's Woe.   For example, the Guide itself mentions the Pine Forests of Taluk Mormadak on the Guide p543.  Hence the ecological population of the elvish forests is more complicated than I thought.  Another possibility is that the Doraddi (or even the Agitorani!) in their wars against the Aldryami invoked repeated Firefalls   

Okay, enough obsessing over the map!

The coins p12 were interesting and I wasted time in trying to work out the legends.  The Wheel's face reads Murharzarm while the obverse has Yelm.  The Lunar Imperial has at the top of the starred Diadem Sedenya at the top and Takenegi at the bottom.  To the left of the hoplite, it reads Fazzur while to the right it reads Urengerum (an archaic name for southern Peloria).

I can't read the legend on the Clack and I have no idea what it might be.  Hendira and Nochet don't fit.  The same goes for the Guilder, the Seshnelan Silver and the Ducat.  I do have some examples of Western writing but it's kufic compared to the runic inscriptions on the coins.

Biggest change to canon: (p13) Seshnegi Talars (ie the noble caste) now provide the heavy cavalry of Seshnela (previously it was the warrior caste).

p14.  Still cannot get over Harrek's porntasche.  The pic is said to be a fresco of Argrath's Temple of the Reaching Storm in Tarsh.  This means that the one in Saird (mentioned in Argrath's Saga in King of Sartar) was not the first.

1 minute ago, David Scott said:

Discussion of the map can go into the week 1 thread that i'll start tonight. I don't think the map is an error (i should have been clearer). We don't know what the map source is meant to be.

I wasn't saying the map was an error (I myself have a list of observations about it) but was waiting for the proper thread and was worried that I had missed something.

1 minute ago, David Scott said:

can we take this out of the error thread please. 

Where is the proper thread?   There's only the error thread that I can see.

4 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Hendira was both Queen of Nochet and Queen of Esrolia, and between 1613 and 1616 was also Governor of Esrolia. Queen of Esrolia and Governor of Esrolia are not synonymous. Generally, when there was a Reverend Grandmother of Nochet, it was she who served as Belintar’s Governor (Valinyr did so from 1585 to 1613).

Samastina is Queen of Nochet, but not yet Queen of Esrolia. There is another contender for that title: the Demivierge, who is Queen of Rhigos. Effectively, post 1624 there is a two-way struggle for dominance with Samastina dominating the North March and North Esrolia and the Demivierge dominating South Esrolia. 

Trying to make sense of all this but where does the Queen-Priestess of Sacred Ezel fit into all this?  Surely they would be more likely to be Queen of Esrolia rather than the Queen of Nochet?  And how does the Queen of Esrolia title even get started?  Was it created by Belintar?  A possibility might be that when the position of Queen of Ezel fell vacant, Belintar used his authority to appoint Bruvula to the position to buttress his rule.  

I'll have to question your statement that Hendira is Governor of Esrolia.  She sits on the Council of Six  (http://www.princeofsartar.com/comic/29-the-city-of-wonders/ which would make them hexarchs?) but only two members of the Council are described as Governors. The remaining four are on the Council because they are important enough despite not being governor (for example I think Carvak Zirian would actually die of old age if he were to take a Talar title).

Although Belintar did appoint governors to the Sixths of Kethaela as per the reference material, I think it clear that the God Learner framework didn't work out.  For example, the governors are supposed to handle the civil governance of Kethaela while military matters are handled by the Duke.  Yet the list of the Governors of Heortland in History of the Heortling Peoples has many fighting battles left, right and centre with no mention of any Duke of Heortland who would be expected to do the fighting.  Since Belintar's authority derives from himself rather than any God Learner bureacracy, it seems to me that he started out with a bureacracy first and was content to let things evolve.

The Governors have been prominent in Heortland because it was a useful device to gain the allegiance of the Esvulari.  Later some Governors have also become Kings in order to gain allegiance from the non-Esvulari.  The Governor of God Forgot is probably the Talar.  Governors exist in Esrolia, the Rightarm Isles and the Shadow Plateau but the post is largely ceremonial.  Why the ruler of Caladraland feels the need to proclaim himself King and Governor is an interesting question (Before the Guide, I would have thought to obtain the respect of the cult of Caladra and Aurelion but they don't seem to be quite so prominent as previously assumed). 

Water wheels exist in Glorantha - the Lunar Empire is compared to a good waterwheel (Guide p307, copied from the in-gloranthan text of the Fortunate Succession) while the Astronomical Clock Tower in Kuchawn is powered by waterwheels (Guide p273).  

For the windmill, the evidence is far more nebulous.  The Old Wind Temple was depicted as a Windmill in the Dragon Pass boardgame and also in a William Church illustration (which appears in Dragon Pass; a Gazetteer of Kerofinela).  Such a description does not appear in the Sartar Companion.  Secondly an old Greg sez said that the Malkioni had Windmills at the Dawn but again that's of dubious canon at best.

17 hours ago, Joerg said:

The name for Sun Dome County and its leader is another topic that needs to fit. Since Greg is not from Britain, I think that "County" is less the fief of a count and more an administrative district, the same as "shire", but from Anglo-Norman French linguistic roots rather than Anglo-Saxon. If we want to de-mediaevalize Glorantha, we should start with eliminating unnecessary mediaeval terms outside of Western context, and then re-think Malkioni terminology.

That's already been done with respect to County.  Sartar Companion mentions a Counting of Ogorvalteland p28.  It's only a short step from there to County and Count.

9 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Halwal supported Hrestolism, too - he is included in the list of revered Ascended Masters along with the Fronelan hero Tryensaval, and enjoyed the support of the Loskalmi Irensavalists in his efforts to purify Malkionism from without the established hierarchy after failing to get a position inside it to reform it.

It's not certain that Halwal supported Hrestolism.  Being worshipped as an ascended master is only shows what the Hrestoli think about him after death.  What he though about them while he was alive is a different thing entirely (for example, Haile Selasse and the Rastafarians)

There is nothing to indicate that he was trying to purify Malkionism from without or even that he was originally trying to reform it from within.  If that were really the case, why was he fighting against Yomili who is describing as reforming the system from within?

9 minutes ago, Joerg said:

His stance appears to have been grounded in mystic insights carried over into the logical philosophies of Malkionism (supporting both Irensavalism and Arkatism), in the tradition of personal revelations like those of Malkion the Sacrifice, Hrestol, or Talor.

His stance appears to be no such thing because we are not told what his stance is.  Your statement should be better expressed as "I believe that he was guided by mystical insights gained through personal revelation".  More importantly if what you suggest is true, why was he fighting against Yomili who was favouring Hrestolism and opposed to the self-same corrupt God Learners who had blocked his (Halwal) appointment?

As an aside, Malkion the Sacrifice does not appear in the Guide which might mean that his existence is no longer canonical.

9 minutes ago, Joerg said:

He was an advisor for the order of Spiritual Purity, though not necessarily a member of that organisation.

Given the order is described in the Guide as "extremist", I doubt the order was in the habit of accepting advice from anybody who didn't share their beliefs.  It's a point in your favour that he supported Hrestolism (which is the usual Malkioni method of mysticism) but the description of extremism means they didn't play well with others.  We also have to consider that possibility that the anger at being denied the position of Imperial High Sorcerpr may mean that Halwal had recanted his previous philosophy and become an irrational - cf his statement about the Great Mystery in the Guide p680).

9 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Halwal revived or resurrected several branches of Malkionism that had been suppressed or forbidden by the God Learner collective.

Halwal aided them rather than revived or resurrected them  The Hrestoli (in the leadership of the Perfecti) were powerful enough to seize control of Frontem long before Halwal went among them to cause rebellion.  The Arkati didn't need help from Halwal in being revived.  What they did need from him - the one True Arkat - he couldn't provide.

9 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Yomili inherited their resistance against these variant philosophies that differed from his form of Hrestolism and Makanism. or he simply was firmly entrenched against any form of mystical insights within his philosophies.

But this suggests that Yomili was a fanatic which isn't what the sources describe.  Halwal is the one who is involved with extremists, not Yomili.

6 hours ago, Joerg said:

Halwal is the Malkioni wizard who was behind most of the uprisings against the God Learners. The Guide tells the story of his final confrontation with Yomili, the Pithdaran wizard who was the staunch defender of Makanism, the orthodox Rightness philosophy of Imperial Seshnela. See p.414, but also mentions in the Ralios and Fronela chapters.

Halwal was a God Learner.  He turned against the other God Learners because they refused to make him Imperial High Sorceror after the disappearance of Argalis.  It's not clear whether he followed Makan or Malkioneran but Sour Grapes more than anything else explains his actions.  

Although Yomili worshipped Makan, he actually embraced Hrestolism (Middle Sea Empire p29).  I don't think it's true to say that he was a staunch defender of the orthodox Rightness philosophy because in the days of the sorceror's war, orthodoxy was something of a bad joke.  Yomili did go back to the good old days (MSE p30 says that his New Church of the Book was old style Makanism with very very strong Hrestoli emphasis and that most bishops and wizards schools were members).  The language is dated but its clear to me that he was an religious innovator under the guise of returning to one's roots.  

In any event, calling someone a God Learner at this point in time is doubly confusing because the actual God Learners collective were being purged left right and centre - Yomili for example overthrew King Tualon who had the support of the God Learners collective (MSE p29)

There is the Boxed Text: An Analysis of the Crystals of the Gods in the Elder Secrets Book p39 which is republished in the Guide to Glorantha p17

Quote

(only five people recognized the
Falangian Diamond, and none of them correctly described its properties),

and 

Quote

Many people were dead wrong about most
of the rocks (one adventurer-type knew nothing, and offered me an outrageous
price for the Falangian Diamond),

Guide p13 has 

Quote

diamonds (especially
Falangian Diamonds) and other gemstones
from the mines of the dwarves; 

And lastly there is a mention of Falangian Wine in King of Sartar (revised edition p130)

Quote

On his way, in the mountains he met
Gonn Orta the Giant. They became good friends, and in a secret manner they shared a bottle
of Falangian Wine.