metcalph

3 hours ago, jongjom said:

 

Page 102: "In the Third Age,.... Illumination is known elsewhere, most notably in Kralorela, East Isles, Ralios, Jrustela, and Vralos." Are those pesky elves in Jrustela, and Vralos Illuminated? If not them who is in those places?

Illumination in Umathela is almost certainly the Cult of Silence.

Illumination in Jrustela is less clearcut, but I think it's anybody that studies the God Learner ruins (whether Orange Guilds, Uz, Malasps etc).

6 hours ago, jajagappa said:

I don't have that source, so can't comment, but I've not seen anything to suggest the Starlight Ancestors were either Votanki or Zarkosites. 

The Starlight Ancestors in the Glorious ReAscent were shown as coming from the region of Votankiland (PDF p33).  That region is generally known as Zarkos.  We know the Votanki are Zarkosites because Votank is mentioned in connection with Durbaddath on the Gods Wall (Guide p677) and their fighting equipment is similar to that of the Zarkosites.

Secondly although the myths of the Starlight Ancestors (Entekosiad) say they all came from the Sky in the Great Darkness, this would be rather unusual in that the Sky People generally fell to the ground to defend existing populations.  

6 hours ago, jajagappa said:

But in original Griffin Mountain, she was just Rigtaina the hunting nymph.  And I haven't seen her referenced since then.  She's not in the list of Land Goddesses in the Glorantha Sourcebook and does not appear in the Guide. 

Rigtaina would be a daughter of Pelora rather than being a daughter of Genert.  Since the Glorantha Sourcebook does not mention Dorasta (another daughter of Pelora) either, the argument from silence doesn't really apply.  Similarly the Guide does not mention Teshna or Kralora either, the argument from silence again is not compelling.  

I can't find the reference to Rigtaina in Griffin Mountain so I can't comment.

5 hours ago, jajagappa said:

There's also room for the Starlight Ancestors to have crossed through here in mythic hunts during the Silver Age after the defeat of chaos and before the Dawn.  They still have descendants in Jarst/Garsting which may have occasionally penetrated or hunted within the great land that was the Elder Wilds (a path followed as well by some of Sheng's followers).

I thought the Starlight Ancestors were Votanki/Zarkosites in origin.  According to the Ancestors of the Lenshi Kings (a Gregly document now probably postcanonical) they migrated northwards and created the Elf Sea after a battle.  Soon afterwards after they became too numerous and some migrated southwards into elf territory (the document sez they were all destroyed but the document itself is described as guesswork).

5 hours ago, jajagappa said:

  There's no earth/land goddess though so it seems to have been blessed more by the Lady of the Wild.

Rigtaina (Dorastor: Land of Doom p116)

7 hours ago, Jon Hunter said:

It would seem there is room for a 100 or so years of interesting EWF background happening in Balazar which has been forgotten, removed from the histories or even rewritten. ie Did Balazar really create those 2 Citadels in 8 years before he got killed with the true Golden Horde?  Why did the Balazarings take to him so quickly? Balazar the liberator rings true there.

The Elder Wilds Elves secede in 890 ST.  The Votanki begin their revolt at an unspecified date, are overrun by a brilliant raid by Third Council mercenaries and are forced to ask help for outside help.  The Third Council collapses in 1042 but Balazar doesn't arrive until 1082.  So he's not exactly a liberator against the EWF.

Now Balazar did steal a magic idol of Mralota.  So what he might have done was defend the land against the Ivory Plinth (who ride pigs but seemingly do not herd them for food) which make anybody acclaim him as a liberator.  And defending the land against Darkness would be the kind of thing for a Yelmalion to so.

 Balazar has some 38 years to built the citadels rather than eight.

12 hours ago, Jon Hunter said:

Was Balazaar a Sairdite, Dara Happan or a Pelorian?

The Guide mentions that he came from the Northwest Lands (Guide p193).  That kind of rules out Saird which is to the west.  He could come from Vanch considering that it controlled Ozarkos at this time would have an interest in Votankiland.  

12 hours ago, Jon Hunter said:

• In his reign was Balazaar more advanced or similar to now?

Part of the problem with the writeup of Balazar is that there is a massive disconnect between what it is now and the fact that Greatway shuns trade with Dragon Pass but still have some mercantile interests in Balazar (Guide p90).  I don't see much evidence of dwarven trade in Balazar compared to what Dwarf Mine gets up to.

I kinda explained the discrepancy by having the Opili Tribe (under Sheng Seleris) reducing the Balazarings from a settled culture or sorts to one whose land was cleared for pasturage.  Farms, towns and villages would then be put to the sword.  Greatway retaliated by poisoning the land so that it became unsuitable for pasturage so that the Opili tribe eventually left it alone and only now is the poison wearing off,

12 hours ago, Jon Hunter said:

• Had the EWF previously had an civilising effects on Votankiland before Balazar arrived?

The Guide maps don't show any EWF control into the Elder Wilds (although in 700 ST, it does show Votanki control over parts of Dragon Pass!).  That's probably because the Votanki were content to pay tribute to the EWF and perform whatever sacrifices they demanded.  

Now there was supposedly a nomadic dragonewt tribe under the leadership of Master Herds Allosaurs that wandered around the Elder Wilds but they do not appear upon either World Council Maps in the Guide (p709 and p715).  Master Herds is described as a Rebel (History of the Heortling Peoples p17) so he may have simply wandered off map to the northeast rather than put up with the Inhuman King.

So I think the EWF influence within Votankiland was of this sort.  They had herds of Dinosaurs wandering around being attended by Dragonewts.  Dragonewts that became dinosaurs, Magisaurs, Hadrosaurs etc  or Dragonewts that had doubts about the way were exiled to Votankiland and tasked to help in the worship of the herds.  They no longer survive because the True Golden Horde slew them all and their nomadicism means that very little was left in the way of construction.

12 hours ago, Jon Hunter said:

• Did the EWF build anything in Votankiland, which has now been destroyed?

They would have built many things but there was been at least two waves of invaders which have a nasty habit of taking what can be taken and destroying what cannot.  Much would have been sacked and destroyed.

12 hours ago, Jon Hunter said:

• Were there dragonewts in Balazaar in the EWF/ pre dragonkill war period?

I think there were.  

12 hours ago, Jon Hunter said:

• Who built highbridge and when? ( at least first age, maybe earlier)?

Dwarf-made.  It was sufficiently well known for a Pentan Horde to use it as a crossing in the Imperial Age.  Given the scale of the construction 15 feet wide, 180 feet long, I doubt that it was made in mythical times and so suspect during the World Council or the Bright Empire.  The origin of the curse against ownership looks interesting.

38 minutes ago, jongjom said:

18 years after the curse started they have enough trollkin to fill half the ranks! Not sure about the math of that!

Trolls are adult at 14.  Depending on how badly they have been defeated, the troops they have in 397 are likely to be a lot less than the troops they mustered in 379 ST.  I don't think the trollkin would have had multiple births as of 397 ST but I find it plausible that they started arming whatever trollkin they could with spears as a desperation move during the Gbaji Wars.

3 hours ago, jongjom said:

Page 89 "Warriors slain could not be replaced, and the powerful army was over half trollkin when it was defeated in battle by the Broken Council around 397." How can that be, they've only just come into existence!!??

Maybe just: "Warriors slain could not be replaced, and the powerful army was over half trollkin when it was later to suffer defeats in battle."

The trollkin curse appeared in 379 ST.  397 ST is some 18 years later.

6 hours ago, jongjom said:

Page 85 "The Greatway dwarfs, still smarting from their former treatment, declared the Nidan Decamony to be criminally insane, and then sent money and power to the Octamonist leaders there." Where is "there"? Nida? If so why did they send them money and power after just calling them insane?

The Octamonist leaders are distinct from the Decamonists that rule Nida.  The Octamonists believe that the creation of Iron and Diamond was wrong because it was done without the participation of the Machine.  Everybody else including the Decamonists that rule Nida believe they are delusional loons.

So Greatway called the Decamonists that rule Nida "criminally insane" and sent money to the Octamonist ldeaders in Nida in a blatant attempt to cause trouble.  

1 hour ago, David Scott said:

Further to this, I came across some new/rediscovered information (This is the problem with the Wastes info, there is a large number of sources, some canon, some not). Pavis: GtA says:

This Narmeed is the one of Cults of Prax fame, he's also mentioned in KoS in the fall of New Pavis. I'm just wondering how this all works? Was he not at Moonbroth and so safe as he wasn't present? He doesn't have a Moon Rune according the Pavis GtA.

Perhaps as tribal Khan, he has a legitimate right to travel the plains or visit the Paps and the Sables dare not infringe this right without attracting curses from the Paps?

4 hours ago, scott-martin said:

It's a great achievement.

p. 17 I might check sources to see if we're talking about a "Red Class Tower" or a Red "Glass" Tower since while this story was previously unknown to me, the distinction has ramifications for deep lunar magic.

The original has the Red Glass Tower Joke (Wyrms Footprints p36).  It may be related to the City of Rose Colored Glass in Teshnos (Guide p433).  

2 hours ago, David Scott said:

OT shout out to Peter (@metcalph )  - everything okay in your neck of the woods given your earthquake & and subsequent  tsunami warning

I'm fine (even had a good night's sleep).  The quake was a lengthy rolling rather than a sudden rumble or shake.  Christchurch is all shook out and there's hardly anything to cause damage down here (Wellington which is further away suffered more damage).  The Tsunami warning was unusual but since I live 20 kays inland and 40 m above sea level, I'm well out of the danger zone.

45 minutes ago, Martin said:

Then is it cannibalism for one sentient race to eat one of their own ?

Trolls and Elves have been described as cannibals.  The trolls practice funerary cannibalism and the Sons of Kargg must regularly devour a relative.  Elves were described as vegetarian cannibals as far back as cults of prax in the context of Food Song (Cult Compendium p193( but bit's not clear whether they are cannibals because they are plants eating plants or that they see nothing wrong with the eating of the flesh of sentient plants (elves, runners, pixies etc).

There is a widely held fan theory (based on Shadows in the Borderlands) that eating human flesh is chaotic and eventually turns the eater into an Ogre.  There's a number of problems with this and the Coming Storm has a more mythically pleasing explanation of how Ogres come to be.

The Heortlings have myth (KoS p76) of the Hidden Kings whose last hunger caused the people to hide.   Heort eventually kills the monsters (presumably because they were shapeshifting) and the people live in settlements once again.  So they would believe cannibalism to be bad.  

Within the context of Orlanthi law, cannibalism is not a capital crime.  However secret murder is.  If the cannibal secretly preys on his fellow humans, then he can be put to death for secret murder as opposed to the consumption of human flesh.  If a cannibal openly preys on his fellow humans then he may not be committing a crime (although people would still find his actions repulsive).  He can however be openly killed and the only sanction would be the attitudes of the cannibal's kin (if any).

45 minutes ago, Martin said:

What about if a human knowingly or accidentally eats the flesh of a sentient being...is that cannibalism?

Better still.  A human eats the flesh of a herd man.  The Praxians say this is not cannibalism.  Everybody else have the kneejerk reaction that it is.  

5 hours ago, Mugen said:

 And sometimes, official translation is just strange.

For instance, "Godlearners" became "Erudits de l'Ambigu". 

The story behind that was that the translator had difficulty deciding whether God Learners should be the Learners about God or the Gods that Learn (an interpretation unknown to me until I heard this story)

So he asked Greg.

Whose answer was "Well, it's ambiguous..."

46 minutes ago, David Scott said:

What's gorilla city?

A city mentioned in the AH Elder Races Book.  p121 has the scenario outline of a family group of Baboons leaving their homeland (ie outside the Wastelands) to investigate the rumour that the legendary Gorilla City has returned to life in a nearby region.  They hope to become the Alpha Baboon Clan as a result.

1 hour ago, g33k said:

To be clear I'm understanding:

Does Gloranthan "canon" currently hold the Praxian Agimori to be "man-and-a-half" stature?  

They are described as such in both the Guide (p27) and in Pavis: Gateway to Adventure p50 and p97

1 hour ago, Pentallion said:

Not sure I see the problem with the Thinkosan myth.  If they escaped Thinobutu on the ships of the Blue People and the Artmali are blue people with tidal powers then it seems reasonable they would use tidal powers to defeat the waters in the first torrential war.  This does not require teh Thinobutans to be Artmali, only that they escaped on Artmali ships.

The tidal powers are said to be used by the Thinobutans, not the Blue People.  

1 hour ago, M Helsdon said:

Whilst the God Learner maps in the Guide must be treated with caution (being God Learner constructs) from them it is apparent that Thinobutu and its inhabitants are not descended from the Agi or the Agimori. See the map on page 683, where the Thinobutu People are both distinct and distant from Pamalt's Fields. The map on page 684 makes it clear they are not Artmali either. The text on page 690 states that some people escaped from Thinobutu on the ships of the Blue People...

Since the people of Teleos to the north are said to seem racially similar to the Agimori (apart from the skin colour) Guide p523, I'm inclined to say that the same is true of the Masloi and other Thinobutan descendants.  Most have dark coloured skin but some have red or gray according to the creation myth.

The mention of escapees from Thinobutu on the ships of the Blue People is a Thinokosan myth (Revealed Mythologies p56) which has them also using tidal powers to defeat the waters in the first torrential war.  However the tidal powers are an Artmali Power and the Thinobutans are not said to be Artmali.  Hence I suspect corruption in the Thinokos myths that were used by the God Learners in compiling the Monomyth and that the Thinokosans acquired tidal powers and blue skins in Ulrana through unknown events.

Dynast is a title which may be in use in the Eastern Isles (there's a reference to Dynasts in Vormain - Guide p539) and given the close connection between the Eastern isles and Maslo, there's likely to be a lot of cultural influences.  There are also Malkioni refugees from the Closing in addition to the Waertagi (Guide p138) so it is a rather cosmopolitian place.  Because of the Closing, I don't think Hoom Jhis is a pirate from elsewhere.  He rises up against the Vadeli between 1588 and 1594 whereas the Opening doesn't reach Teleos until 1595 (and the Flanchi don't reach there until 1598).

When the comment about the pale blues of Thinokos first appeared in Revealed Mythologies, I considered it a mistake because the people of Maslo are not pale blues.  Since it has appeared authoritatively in the Guide, I find their origin to be rather obscure.  I kind of doubt they are Artmali-related as they wouldn't be distinguishable from the local blueskins.  They could be related to the Sendereven though. 

7 hours ago, Iskallor said:

There are headhunters around Engoli fort if I remember correctly.

The source of that is the RQ Adventures fanzine.

The headhunters are the Culbrea fyrd IIRC.  I did have an idea in which they take heads as a re-enactment of sorts of the dismemberment of the Giant Lant Ulfar (who lies in various pieces nearby).

13 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

Oh great sage, nay. Chaos in Pamaltela now derives from the Nargan Desert, where once lay the center of the mighty Armali Empire. Fonrit is but a relic (in part) of that time.

Look at the God Learner Maps in the Guide.  

Map p691 - Vovisibor is attacking Pamaltela from some place near Ulrana, which is in the north.  He marches south along the Corruption Trial and is defeated at Jaranpur Fields.  

Vovisibor p693 - [,,,] Vovisibor took over the rule of all that is evil and sent them everywhere in the South".

Vovisibor p704 - This entity invaded Pamaltela in the Chaos War [Actually the Lesser Darkness - PHM], melting its way through the mountain wall [...]

Jaranpur Fields p692 - Site where Pamalt met Vovisibor and detsoryed him with the Firefall.

Firefall p691 "The Artmali were corrupted by Vovisibor [etc]"

Vovisibor hence came from the north.  As for his association with Fonrit, there is the Copper Canyon in Thinokos (Guide p559).  

Revealed Mythologies has more.

p52 "The stranger [vovisibor - PHM] called himself Surprise-From-The-North" 

3 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

Unless you are in Pamaltela or Slon...

Chaos in Pamaltela came from Fonrit, which is the north.  

36 minutes ago, Darius West said:

So the question is this... what is the difference between Draconic illumination and Nysalori Illumination? 

HeroQuest: Glorantha calls Draconic wisdom illumination as a shorthand for possession of the infinity rune.  They are the same thing or completely different things depending on how you look at it (or more importanly whether you want an argument or not).  

There's really only two effects that we need to concern ourselves: 1) what the illuminate says about his wisdom and 2) what an observer says about the illuminate.  In terms of what the illuminate says, draconic wisdom and nysaloran illumination are different as orthodox hesychasm and zen koans.  In terms of what the observer says, the draconist and the illuminate can do very similar things through their transcedental knowledge.

36 minutes ago, Darius West said:

Clearly the Dragonewts were present at the Broken Council and were cursed by Nysalor just like the trolls (though a true dragon rose and devoured the curse).  It is also true that Nysalor was birthed from a "cosmic egg" or "Omphalos" just like a dragon deity.  It is also pretty clear that in Kralorela, the two paths seem to merge apparently pretty seamlessly.  On the other hand, there can be no doubt that they are NOT the same.

Nysalor did not invent Illumination - Yelm did when he was killed.  According to the Dara Happans, Nysalor is an emanation of Yelm to bear the truths of illumination to mankind.

The cosmic egg is not unique to draconism.  For example, it appears in Orlanthi mythology as the source of everything.

The status of illuminated wisdom in Kralorela may be many things but I think it too much to claim it as seamlessly.  There are the Seventeen Lessons to Perfection that were taught by Osdero, criticized by NiangMao.  NiangMao's own teachings weere put into place by Shavaya who was then confounded by Sekever.  FInally we have the teachings of Daruda, the rusticism of which would be quite alarming to the adherents of both NiangMao and Metsyla.  Plus you have the snobs from the Eastern Isles who deride the Kralori as degenerate dragon worshippers.

36 minutes ago, Darius West said:

We can also see that in the destruction of the Red Moon by the True Dragons that this is a Draconic HeroQuest of transformation via a playing out of the Sacred Utuma Ritual.  Such a thing would not be necessary if the Red Goddess' illumination were perfect.

There's a difference between the Red Goddess's illumination (which is perfect) and mortal understanding of it (which is represented by the Red Moon and is thus demonstrably imperfect).  When mortals understand the Moon then it will be white.  

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So should we see Nysalor as being essentially a false illumination? 

There is nothing wrong with Nysalor or his illumination.  That he was slain by Arkat speaks more about Arkat than it does Nysalor.

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The path of the True Dragon is not to surrender to Orxili (chaos?) but to defeat, reform, educate, and reconcile Orxili back into the cosmic unity (I assume).  And yet Orxili never seems to be destroyed any more than the True Dragon is destroyed? 

Orxili is the observable world.  

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In fact, Crested Dragonewts are called Orxili. 

They are?