metcalph

8 hours ago, Patrick said:

Golden Vadeli? Really?

That's the first time I see that as more than a rumor...

Quote

Another extinct subrace, the Yellow Vadeli, have not been seen since the Gods Age.

Guide p527

54 minutes ago, Nel said:

Reading through Sartar: Kingdom of Heroes, I found some contradictory facts about the Evil Emperor Yelm:

* How did Yelm defeat Orlanth during the 1st contest, the Contest of Music?
- By performing a Court Dance, according to S:KoH p. 96
- By playing the Harp, according to S:KoH p. 104

These are two different myths.  In one place the Sun God performed a courtly dance to defeat the Storm God.  In another place, the Sun God played the Harp.  Later on, the Storm God was identified as Orlanth and the Sun God identified as Yelm.  But instead of deciding which one was correct, they found that both were.  

54 minutes ago, Nel said:

* When did Orlanth kill Yelm?
- On the battle of the Extinguished Field, according to S:KoH p. 40
- By wielding Death during the 4th contest, the Contest of Weapons, according to S:KoH p. 96 and GtG p.117

The extinguished field lies, I believe, in Ralios where the early Ralians had a myth about Erulat (later identified as Orlanth) defeated Ehilm (Later identified as Yelm) in the Battle of Battles*.  Ehilm was killed and Erulat forced to retire through a poisoned wound.

*See here: http://www.glorantha.com/docs/safelster-in-the-first-age/

These variations are important in heroquesting because Harmast knew a certain magic that when he ventured onto the hero place and encountered a version of the myth that he didn't like, he could change it to something more favourable to him.  Let's say, he went to kill Yelm and found him at the Extinguished Field.  Harmast, because of his last battle alongside Arkat, wants to avoid battles.  So he changes the myth to be one in which he fights (and kills) Yelm in a duel.

54 minutes ago, Nel said:

Also, could you tell me about the Evil Emperor Malkion?
According to GtG p.387, his cruel sorcerers and inhumans dwarves enslaved Orlanthi people during the Gods war until they were freed by Orlanth.
I haven't find any other mention of Malkion as a/the Evil Emperor, and that title looks to be applied by Orlanthis only to the Bright Emperor (aka Yelm) and the Emperor of Dara Happa (the earthly representative of Yelm).
Is this an errata, and GtG p.387 should say Evil Emperor Yelm instead of Evil Emperor Malkion?

No.  It's a condensed version of mythical events that are described in some more detail (but not fully) in Revealed Mythologies.  Basically in western Genertela, the people there were enslaved by dwarves and vadeli and only freed themselves by becoming Vingkotlings.  The ruler of the Vadeli (like all Malkioni of that period) belonged to the Golden Caste and had golden skin so some identification of him as the Evil Emperor was bound to happen.

Given that the Ezokite School is described as a Zzaburi school at the Dawn, it seems a bit of a reach to me that the Rokari would find it suspicious considering they are described as seeking a return to a pre-Hrestoli religion.  Likewise the description of Leplain refers to all schools being under the watchful eye of the Watcher Supreme with no statement made as to his suspicion of them for being pre-Rokari.

I think the chief concern of the Watcher Supreme regarding various wizard schools would be:

1) prevention of any study of the forbidden verses of the Abiding Book (ie the ones condemned as heretical by Rokar)

2) maintenance of caste boundaries and a condemnation of Hrestoli practices.

There is always the possibility of Arkatism but most wizards would consider it beneath themselves to consider debasing their intellect.

It may have been a detail for the long ago Sog City freeform.  But there is an alchemical order in the city of LePlain where Theoblanc lives according to the Guide so they don't.

You could have a moon-boat or two in the caravan (usually tethered to the pack beasts) but from time to time made to scout the surrounding lands.

On 01/09/2016 at 7:34 AM, Evilroddy said:

2) Do these caravans hire unaffiliated mercenary guards or are they guarded by Redlanders and the private guards of the merchant houses involved?

There is a reference in the Fortunate Succession to Kastok's Lance protecting the caravans.  Unfortunately that's about it.

9 hours ago, Iskallor said:

My character is a baboon.

Pas de probleme.  Claim he's from Boshan and most Kralori in Shiyang province will believe him.

50 minutes ago, Iskallor said:

Disguise and subterfuge 7W.

Sorted.

Doesn't need to be as high as that.  I've read of a European explorer of pre-isolation Japan who travelled for several weeks disguised as a Samurai with a Japanese Christian to act as a guide and servant.  Another was a European priest who pretended to be an Imperial Official so he could enter a prison to give the last rites to an imprisoned Christian.  Both these subterfuges worked despite both Europeans being unable to speak much Japanese.

There's a map of the Lunar Empire-Kralorela trade route on p469 of the Guide.  Hence Jangi-Shar is the endpoint of the caravans.  IMO a Lunar could travel from there to the breadth of Ignorance (join the Black Sect, Hobnob with the Yellow Masked Priests etc) but faces legal problems if he crosses the border into Kralorela.  

10 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

The map in the Guide and Atlas excludes most of the Elder Wilds and Balazar from Sheng Seleris' empire (and there are still griffins there, but little to no mention of them in lowland Peloria). Given that there were far richer pickings elsewhere, there seems little reason to do more than briefly scout those regions, with a fair risk the scouts wouldn't come back. Sending a demigod into the wilderness doesn't seem strategically or logistically sensible.

I doubt that Sheng shares your views on what is strategically or logistically sensible.  He conquered the Wastelands which are far more barren than the Elder Wilds.  What Sheng wants is not some penny-pinching accountant telling him what would be a wise use of his resources - he has a mountain of accountant skulls for that - but secrets that he could use against the Kralori.  Remote wastelands would be scouted because they are remote and likely to hold secrets.

The map that you refer to is dated 1450 ST, some 75 years after the Opili Tribe were badly mangled at the Battle of Quintus Vale.  The then Opili Khan may have simply decided that occupying the Citadels and other places then was not worthy of his time.

10 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

In fact for the Elder Wilds there's the Uncommon Event: Griffins hunting horses; horsemen beware!

This threat is not mentioned elsewhere, but explains why Sheng attempted to exterminate them.

Sheng had Lionbirds and used them to devour the Red Emperor. according to Tales #8 (a post-canonical gregly article).  I'm hence skeptical that he would be exterminating Griffins

1 hour ago, M Helsdon said:

His realm didn't extend far into Balazar or the Elder Wilds - poor grazing. The griffins there are a small relict population.

The Opili Tribe settles in Garsting but fought at the battle of Quintus Vale (on the borders of Tarsh).  There's only two routes they could have gone and one of them has been blocked of by Jannisor over a century before.  

And if Sheng can't send a horde because of poor grazing then he would send one of his demigods to see what secrets the land was hiding.

It's my understanding that the caravans end up in Ignorance.  The caravans end up in Jang-Shar (Guide p288).  "In the last century, many strange foreign cults have taken root in Ignorance as a result of the biennial caravan from the Lunar Empire" (Guide p287). Alanthore, a prophet of the Blood Sun from Ignorance, is active in the Redlands while Livia Tarinda, a Lunar Native, is preaching the Bloodheart/Blood Sun/Red Moon in the Eastern Isles.

Given that Lhankor Mhy's father happens to be a certain, Mostal (Cult Compendium p159 repeating information already published in Cults of Prax), it would be more of a surprise if Lhankor didn't have anything to do with sorcery.

Umm, where is Greydust?  I see it in the text but can't see it on the map.

More importantly, there's a bit of a problem in the material in that being killed by chaos, his supporters manage to inter him in the elaborate (for the period) Tada's High Tumulus.  

7 hours ago, Patrick said:

What do we know about them, about from these very very brief mentions?

They study the transformation of one substance to another through alchemical processes.  A big issue is that what people know about alchemy is rather medieval in scope which strikes at odds with the bronze-age feel that the guide strives for.  The little notes that Jeff put up at glorantha.com show an inorganic focus (ie metals and minerals).

I think the basic magic of the school is preparing acids and alkalis (by getting a sample of suitable fluid and casting a spell upon it with the strength of the acid or base equal to the effort of their spell).  They also know how to ferment organic material to produce liquors of various strengths.

I think the school knows how to make black powder (but never so controlled as the Mostali) and rather than turning base metal into Gold, they are seeking the making of Iron.  

7 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Yes, a Bright Fletching Company exists in Nochet.  And it does produce fine arrows for the Green Arrows militia and other mercenaries.  Whether the head of the company is a wizard, a Trader Prince, or something else is a subject of rumor and speculation.

In any case, I would prefer the company's magics to be something other than buff arms and armour.  

16 minutes ago, davecake said:

I've always thought of the Schools of Magic as being intellectual traditions, rather than specific learning institutions/organisations of any kind.

They are described as specific institutions in the Guide.  For example, the Zendamalthan School maintains the Temple of the Invisible God in Seliset (p211) whereas the Ekozite School is spoken of as having a centre of learning in Leplain (p417).  Given that both Loskalm and Seshnela both have state-mandated philosophical schools, other permitted schools would be ordered as formal organisations in an effort to control them.   

16 minutes ago, davecake said:

So the idea of someone using the magic derived from Against The Demons but not being part of the Furlandan School is incoherent to me, or at the most a subtle distinction probably not worth making.

I'm not sure I can see the worth of a Loskalm without politics or internal tension.  If it's good for the Orlanthi (who have struggles between Kings and Priests in their history) or the Lhankorings (who feud mildly over whether God Learner texts should be studied) then it should be good for other places in Glorantha.

My opinion on the Against the Demons

Originally the grimoire of the Furlandan School, it was developed to combat evil spirits in the Great Darkness.  The school had its greatest success in fighting the Enjorelli and after they were vanquished, the school had no external enemies to fight.  As a result, the school's magicians turned their attention within themselves, using their magics to purge themselves so they could attain Joy.

King Siglat revived the Grimoire.  He wanted to cleanse the land of evil influences so the country would become more receptive to Joy.  He reinterpreted the teachings of the school from purging the body of evil spirits to one of purging the country of evil spirits.  He had the Grimoire taught to his Men-of-All so they could see the signs of wickedness, summon the responsible spirits and remove them.  The Men-of-All who carried out the cleansings were part of the First Brothers rather than the Furlandan School so Siglat did not trust wizards no matter how much they sang Hrestol's praises. 

Cleansing a land usually involves summoning the local populace (a village or a town), questioning them on anything bad that has happened to them over the past year.  Armed with such a knowledge, the Men-of-All leads the population in summoning the spirit whereupon they struggle to imprison it within an energy prison to be disposed of later.  In cases of magical calamities, the Men-of-All are often more coercive in their questioning if they suspect someone within the community is actively aiding the spirit.  

Captured spirits are usually contained within a nearby fort dedicated to holding energy prisons.  The Men-of-All often have carry imprisoned spirits working their misdeeds through penal servitude.  The Men-of-All usually demonize these spirits so they will confer spell knowledge rather than function as a charm.,

1 hour ago, davecake said:

Not every school needs to be cool. 

I disagree strongly.

17 hours ago, Tindalos said:

IMG many of the modern sorcery schools are based upon the ancient schools. For example, the Barmalani School gave rise to the Iron Blood School of Seshnela, and it wouldn't surprise me if many other Schools followed suit. Even the more liberal order of Bardan's Book has many spells in common to the Iron Blood wizards, so it wouldn't surprise me if Bardan was a Barmalani Man of All who tried to further develop their magic in the wake of Hrestolism.

Well IMO the Bardan School is has many of the problems that plagued Issaries cult writeups at the time - it isn't very good to such an extent that it's no longer canonical and unlikely to have anything written about it in the future.,

17 hours ago, David Scott said:

There are three spell mentioned in the text:

Harmony of the Parts.

Soothe the Dyspeptic Stomach that can suppress (temporarily) hostile Darkness magic in a prepared location.

The ritual that enables entrance and egress into the Room Without Doors.

HQG says there are these principles you have to use in sorcery: Summon / Dismiss, Command, Combine / Separate & Tap.

So how do we reconcile /change this so it's more representative of HQG.

Soothe the Dyspeptic Stomach would be Dismiss and Darkness.

Harmony of the Parts would be Summon and Harmony (any effect which is called into being is best treated as a summons)

Enter the Room without Doors would be Separate and Earth.  That is if the Room exists on the mortal plane.  If it doesn't, then I would use Summon and Magic (in effect you are summoning yourself into the Room without Doors and Magic is used for communication between the worlds).

As an example of what I spoke about the focus of the schools changing over time, here's a little thought I had about the Zendalmathan School to resolve the inherent contradiction about an Archimedian Engineering School that rejects Empircism (deriving knowledge from sense-experience).

The School once had an argument with a God Learner about the path of a thrown stone.  The school argued that the path should resemble a circle while the God Learner proved arc of the stone was not that of a circle.  True to their philosophy, the school denounced the arc as a corrupt sign of Makan and set about making up a stone-thrower that would fling its payload in the circle's arc.  The magics required to produce such an effect would counter Makan's evil influence and thus be used to free humanity from its grasp.

That work is ongoing and the school Still has not built its desired circle thrower.  They laboriously build enchanted catapults, carefully calculating the effect of the spells and fire the payload only to end in failure. After it was reasoned correctly that the size of the catapult was a crucial factor (Makan would have trouble corrupting a larger catapult than he would a small one), the School has been building bigger and bigger catapults.  Their best effort can hurl a stone weighing a ton a full mile ("doing the ton" so the school labels the milestone).  

Their failed designs are not thrown on the scrapheap but bought by the Kingdom of Loskalm for their defences.  An unusual feature of these catapults is that the School quickly worked out the way to increase the effect of Makan upon a projectile.  All the school's catapults can be used in such a matter.  The stone travels in a straight line with no visible curvature in flight.  The stone gradually slows down until it reaches stillness whereupon it falls to the earth straight down.

3 hours ago, davecake said:

Peter I said the Loskalmi were fond of the Furlandan school because Against the Demons is one of their core texts, and it is the specialty grimoire of the Furlandan School.

You speak of the Furlandan School as it still exists, which is not a given.  It existed in the Dawn Age and who knows what has happened since.  You also speak of the spells in the Furlandan School as if it were being set in stone unchanging in time whereas the needs it fulfils for the Loskalmi today are surely different from the needs of the early Hrestoli in the Dawn Age.  

3 hours ago, davecake said:

We also know the sort of spells it contains - resist spirit, banish spirit, remove curse, etc. Not the most exciting, but with its practical uses (it's good against disease as well as shamans and other spirits).

I don't care for a bland list of spells if it has practical uses.  That's not what Glorantha should be about.  The spells are what they had at the start of the Dawn Age.  What happened to the School in the Imperial Age and what happened when the Men-of-All took over?  Are the wizards going to be satisfied learning the same lists of spells?

3 hours ago, davecake said:

The [Zendamalthan - PHM] idea of geometry and magic together also makes me think of magic circles, walls, lines, all manner of magic defences, magic prisons. Even using the magical correspondence of one circle to another to create teleport circles, clairvoyance devices, etc. 

Thank you.  That was actually the type of interesting insight that I was looking for.  

Quote

But to answer your more general question - I think the New Hrestoli are as capable of learning any form of magic as any other, and confronted with the Kingdom of War will turn back to the less favoured but very effective elemental magic and Death magic, and corrupt their Furlandan spells to begin commanding spirits rather than just defending against them.

There's nothing intrinsically wrong with commanding spirits (although the old Hero Wars/HeroQuest mindset did give that impression).  The first sorceror of Wizpotket actually commands a Vadeli Ice Demon (Guide p211)

The rest of your post was and interesting and useful read.

Given that Harrek wasn't in Sog City for very long and we are also ignorant of any military conflicts leading up to the Sack of Sog City, it's a weak argument from silence to say that Loskalm didn't do anything when Harrek attacked.  Loskalm is currently not an imperialistic country but they can get involved in foreign wars for reasons other than conquest.

37 minutes ago, Patrick said:

Not sure it means The Red Emperor will overcome Loskalm, though. The "King of the West" could be the king of Charg (after the Ban is lifted). And the stele claims reached Sog City and the Sea, which means conquering Akem, rather than Loskalm.

Not sure that Akem has a history of being conquered by outside countries and I doubt that Loskalm is willing to let a huge army wash its feet in Ozur sound without a fight.