M Helsdon

Snodal's vision of Zzabur drowning much of the West has simply been delayed by a few centuries.

Yes, that helps. Thanks - that almost gives me enough. From what I can determine, Westerners put lines of text from their holy books on shields, walls, etc. even when the text is not related to a spell. I am assuming from the way it is written there, that the script is a form of alphabet.

Reworked. At the moment I am sketching out a Brithini holari... There are two sketches intend to appear in the current project that will look relatively hi-tech (though still hoping for a Bronze/Iron Age look); the holari will be one of them. I am assuming that Brithini armor will look very distinct. The other hi-tech illustration will hopefully be of a Middle Sea Empire cataphract. I want to illustrate the development of Western heavy cavalry through from the early Men-of-All, though to the MSE, and then show a decline in technology... After the fall of the MSE Seshnela entered a dark age for several centuries. Am also searching for any Western Script shown in a canonical illustration, but so far am drawing a blank. The next sketch will of a very early Seshnegi soldier, of the sort who fought the Pendali prior to the Men-of-All cavalry gaining sufficient numbers to be tactically important.

Rider has a too dark an edge - overdid the shading surrounding the figure. May try to disassemble the sketch and put the rider on the mount again.

Latest. Not entirely successful experiment, with the rider and mount drawn in one sketch.

Something that appears in a footnote.... There's a reason why Third Eye Blue have the tattoo where it is... it sits just over the sorb. Tomorrow I start trying to draw a Tawari bull-rider.

There's about a thousand words (roughly a page in total split between a section on the Esrolian military, and an entry in the Army Lists) and an illustration (and mini-illustration) about the Kimantorings, in the 'present day'. Nothing about the Kingdom of Night. As the book in its entirety is 258K words, this is a brief mention... The sequel supplement is quite short. Only 80K words so far.

Reworked.

I am using the map in.... https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/home/gloranthan-documents/glorantha-2/the-enerali-circa-130-st/ You are severely overestimating population densities. Which is entirely wrong. A village.

Just posted the first illustration on the Swords thread - needs a bit more work. Already roughed out the next - an earlier Seshnegi soldier - a Brithini horali he is not... Am wondering if I should start a new thread.

Shading needs a bit more work.

It will be an achievement if it gets permission for publication... I didn't intend, when I started this project to delve so deeply into history and religion, expecting this to max out at forty or fifty pages, but to get a grasp on Western martial culture required it. Unless you can present the nature and background of, for example Rokarism and the various sects of Hrestolism, it is difficult to describe the military of Seshnela, Fronela or even Ralios.

If you don't have the Guide to Glorantha, then you really need it. There's a section on Maniria/Slontos which will help you. There's one picture by Jan which really sets the atmosphere of the place.

Sadly, there are limited data points. This is (very vaguely) using techniques applied in a very different field involving data mining legacy... things, where the documentation was incomplete. I suspect that the 'Loyal Colony' was there in some form, but not what might be expected. All the other 'colonies' were populated by exiles of one sort or another, and none maintained the apparent continuity of Arolanit (which only had an interregnum when the Middle Sea Empire invaded and all the upper castes mysteriously vanished, and came back after the MSE was toast). I have mistakenly ignored the other Srotolin; will have to look it again. Suspect canon has changed, because everything points to some very weak and precarious 'colonies' there at the Dawn. I am hoping that I will be able to share the draft with a couple of readers, but the document is full of Chaosium IP. One benefit of the writing style, also used in Armies and Enemies, is that writing as though in-world, but thousands of years later, you can speculate, and have footnotes with all sorts of things in, you couldn't do if you were writing an objective text. There's some distinct editorial bias.

I'm not sure when Theuz was founded, or when the other cities in Arolanit were. That's why I put a blanket name on the map. Srotolin had me puzzled for a time, until I decided I couldn't resolve the usages of the name and included a footnote to note the possible confusions. I'm pretty much limited to published sources (books, online documents, other online sources by Jeff or Greg) and a very few other things. I'd love to peer in Chaosium's vaults... And seriously regret not backing the Guide Kickstarter to obtain the Roots books. My attempt is driven by an attempt to write a sequel to 'The Armies and Enemies of Dragon Pass' covering the West. Almost immediately, realized there was a need to give overviews of the history and the religions, as without definitions of the varieties of Malkionism, it was difficult to attempt to describe the histories or the military cultures. One thing that turns up, is that for all the mentions of knights/horsemen etc. the one major type of cavalry the West is known for, in the Third Age, the cataphracts, is a relatively late development, probably only in place by the Second Age. That's driven a lot of speculation about the development of Western heavy cavalry. The late Silver Empire probably had proto-cataphracts, but lacking some of the ride armor, and most of the mount's armor. And it wasn't until the Second Age that a breed of the Daron became a suitable war horse - before that, big but slow. The book, if it is permitted to be published is now about 108 pages and 80K words. Have started drawing illustrations for it.

Yes, after the Theyan missionaries arrive. Neolithic farming covers a huge range of types of farming, from the harvesting of natural plants through to domestication. I am keeping the term horticulture to indicate that this wasn't advanced farming techniques. Difficult to say. Possibly south. One source I have (forget which) gives it as an early name for Arolanit. I am aware of the tribe, and have a footnote about it. That's the source I used. On this scale of map positions are approximate. I don't mention the Entruli. The population density of Hsunchen hunter-gatherers will be incredibly small, so there is plenty of room for other peoples. These are intended to provide a range, not a controlled territory. It seemed a useful label instead of 'various hsunchen'. At that point, save for parts of the lowlands, it was all forest? I'm afraid that document, whilst 'factual' when it was written, has an awful lot of problems when assessed beside current canon. My suspicion is that the Tawari were an Enjoreli tribe. One of the documents I have says Srotloin was the original name of Arolanit. Will have to check. Here's the source: https://www.glorantha.com/docs/safelster-in-the-first-age/ May be in The Middle Sea Empire, but the PDF isn't searchable.

Ah, Damol and his sons conquered the Pendali, but so far as I see, there's no evidence for there being a city there. Many cities develop from village sites, but I don't believe the Pendali had any impressive cities. Damol seems to be a sort of cousin to Malkion. So far as I see, there were waves of missionaries - some from the south and others via Kartolin. Am not convinced that the Pralori's domain extended into Safelster. One of the Enerali tribes, the Vustri, joined up with the Serpent Beasts. I don't see much evidence until much later for any 'glory' in the north. In Sog City only a few zzaburi and a pair of dronari survived as immortals. Have attempted to create a map of the Dawn in the West. Only a few Hsunchen and natives are shown because they appear in my text.

Yes, I know the history of fire farming. And, no I don't believe it is applicable. According to the sources there were wild and semi-wild horse herds in the lands around Felster. So far as I am aware, the few cities with surviving populations were on or very near the coast. I very much doubt it. Damolsket was founded by the Malkioni in Jrustela. The effect of the Lightbringer missionaries indicates a much richer culture. There were cattle Hsunchen in Ralios - the Bemuri. They became Orlanthi Barntar worshippers. The northern colonies were in a bad way before the Seshnegi arrived.

I suspect that Hsunchen would view fire-fallow cultivation as an abuse of the Earth. The Enerali are not Hsunchen, but I have encountered indications that they did not farm until the Theyalan missionaries introduced it. They wouldn't adopt Seshnegi methods as they were the enemy from the Dawn, if not before. Tribal ancestors are never the only ancestors, but in these cultures the culture-ancestor is predominant, and Hrestol killed or injured their culture-mother to harm them. For that matter, if the Seshnegi hadn't gone totally native and their Talar hadn't married into the Land Goddess' family, the West would have looked very different - no expansion into the hinterland, no Silver Empire aiding the northern survivors. Here I have to strongly disagree. The Seshnegi were heirs to large walled cities, even if their ancestors were Brithini exiles. At the Dawn they were living in these walled enclaves, mostly ruined. The Pendali were living in what were scattered villages - not heirs to a civilisation, in that the term derives from living in cities. When they were ultimately assimilated, those who weren't killed or driven off, they would have been Workers, in as much as the Malkioni had castes at that time. For both, a community of a thousand was probably very unusual, and at that population you can't retain much knowledge or technology. The Malkioni might have had a very few genuine talari, holari and maybe a couple of zzaburi, but not many. Afraid I find it almost impossible to tangle a historical narrative out of Western God Time myths. It is (intentionally) contradictory. They were all heirs to wrecked cultures, living in abject poverty, much like the survivors in the Malkioni enclaves, with a population size too low to maintain any sophistication. The Theyalans were much better off than, for example, the Enerali, and their initial contacts seem to have driven the development of farming, a major population growth and political organization. They might have got there on their own, but the Malkioni and Theyalans gave them no time to do so, and at first the Theyalans weren't competitors and enemies like the Seshnegi. At the Dawn and in the following century, these people were poor, had little or no metalworking, and no big urban centers. The Malkioni probably retained metalworking, and almost certainly writing, and the agricultural methods of Brithos but they were dirt poor. Continuity and sequence before Time is tricky. The Westerners who emerged were probably barbarians themselves, in the eyes of the Brithini and themselves. The majority of the Western enclaves probably didn't survive, and even the ones that did, up in the north had a hard time until the Silver Empire arrived with reinforcements.

At the Dawn they were hunter-gatherers, though the Enerali, possibly because of their association with the elves, probably had limited horticulture which is why they revered Flamal. Don't know about the Enjoreli. The Pendali tribe were descended from the sons of Pendal, and as his wife was a daughter of Seshna they were 'tainted' by an earth goddess. Eneral was the son of Galanin the Sun Horse and a daughter of the Land Goddess Ralia, so also 'tainted'. Enjoreli - unknown. Before the Theyalans arrived to teach the Enerali about agriculture, there were no farmers to give up tribute in the region. The Enerali lived off the marshes around the lakes, and annually ate horse flesh in a sacred rite. The Pendali, Enerali, and the Enjoreli were poor desperate survivors of the Darkness; better off than many, but none had cities (at most they had hill-forts) or agriculture. The Hsunchen who shared their territories were much worse off.

I know. It appears in different sizes on the maps posted yesterday.

Am told those northern coastlines are accurate...

Well, I hadn't noticed the difference before drawing these, and it has me mightily bemused. It is a simple thing to alter my maps, but I don't know if I should.

I believe Greg obtained it from a science fiction or fantasy novel and liked the term. Here we are: A Voyage to Arcturus is a novel by the Scottish writer David Lindsay, published in 1920.

Wouldn't be visible at the scale these maps are used at? I used the historical maps in the Guide as a... guide. Hmm, maybe the early ones aren't accurate. I can fix mine.