Paid a bod yn dwp

29 minutes ago, Baulderstone said:

Personally, I wouldn't unless the player was deeply into Glorantha already and had a very cool concept. Everything that is interesting about them is at odds with having them wandering around adventuring with a typical adventure party. 

I know the setting has outcast, individualist Mostali that do wander off in search of adventure, but that just feels tacked onto the setting to give people an excuse to play Mostali as people with a different stat build. 

Yes that was my feeling too. I'm not read well up on them at present, but remember reading the rq3 elder secrets box a long time ago, and wondering how on earth I was going to use them. The presentation of the Avalon hill box set was so bad that it put me off trying.

Wasn't there some less alien conception of the mostali in Pavis, with the flintnail cult?

Mostali are an intriguing idea. Their motivations seem so alien to humans, which is great but also a double edge sword, in that they can feel inaccessible. Particulary for the majority who are used to the stereotype from Tolkien. 

What suggestions would people give for roleplaying them? With such alien motivations how would you incorporate them into a "party" of adventurers? 

Is it conceivable that they could join a cult other then mostal, or is that too unthinkable? 

I've often thought what a great fit BRP would be for warhammer fantasy roleplay, as there were so many apparent "inspirations" from RQ/ Stormbringer/ Cthulhu 

Both 40k and WFRP, would fit brilliantly with the system and the balance of simulation and gaming 

3 hours ago, g33k said:

Well...  DAMN.  Every time I think the racists can't sink any lower...

Sometimes, I hate Googling for something.

The usage seems to occur far beyond California.  And it looks (so nobody ELSE has to wade through the muck) to be largely a whiteF/blackM usage -- the woman being the "mudshark" and "mudsharking" the behavior.

Damn it, just as I finally recieve  closure on a 25 year old mystery, it seems that times have changed and I can no longer use the term "Mudshark".

Oh well I have never come across that meaning in the UK thankfully, and I don't imagine I ever will. 

4 minutes ago, Corvantir said:

I suppose that is because the Cult Compendium includes the Gods from both Cults of Prax and Cults of Terror...  

Ah right of course. Apart from the compilation of both cult books, is there anything extra in cults compendium? As the originals are coming back into print this year , might those be preferential? 

2 hours ago, Zit said:

Because they are damn' good !

MOB's suggestion seems to be the most sensible. Borderlands to start with, it has been made for that and it is all wilderness. You don't even need to know too much about Glorantha and can quickly start without reading tons of background material. Glorantha is a World which you discover by playing in it. Then you have all the material to play in the River of Craddles: Shadows on the Borderlands and Strangers in Prax for scenarios, Pavis / Big Rubble and Sun County for sandboxing (and more scenarios), depending on your tastes or where the campaign is leading you. You have here years of gaming available. Or you can switch to Griffin Mountain (my prefered RQ supplement) or go to Dorastor.

Wether RQ2 or 3 is not a big deal.

But you'll definitely need Cults of Prax, or better the Cult Compendium to play a gloranthan campaign.

Curious.Why would you say cult compendium over cults of prax? 

Agreed, the game & writing has to be excellent, thats a given. But I really don't think that a game with such potential for mainstream appeal should hold back on spending on top quality artists, its the whole package thats important if this game is to be big. There is always Kickstarter to help if budgeting is a problem. Don't under estimate the power of quality art to get people interested and inspired. Its the hook that brings about impulse buys, then the game and writing (if its good) keeps them coming back for more. RQ2 managed this. 

Black & white is great. As long as it's not dry and static as an image. It needs a bit movement in the drawing,  expression, & imagination to excite. 

Whilst the guide to Glorantha has some really good Gloranthan details in many of the images( i really like the Art nouveau/Pre Raphaelite feel of Hon Eel in one illustration) , an area i think has been particularly weak, has been the depictions of the elder races. They have never been inspiring for me. I do think Trolls have been well conceived in their bestial nature, though still could benefit from the hand of a new accomplished artist, but the Mostali dwarfs and Aldryami elves have been terrible IMO.

Art when its accomplished can communicate so much on many different levels. 

Looking at the images used in the guide for the Aldryami, I find them so badly ineffective, they communicate very little about the depth and wonder of this magical race. In contrast Brian Froud illustrates a similar concept to the elves of Glorantha, but does so with so much depth & character. His observations of plant life, twisted trees and a fusion of flesh & plant is just at a much greater level of sophistication. It has a strangeness, a weathered sense of time and age, earthy, deep rooted, and sense of forbidding and sense of the other. I'm not saying get Brian Froud to do the elves necessarily, but just trying to show how powerful imagery can be if you find the right artists. its an amazing tool for communication.

Great discussion - luis Perrin ( thanks for the spelling correction ) illustrations remain timeless and are a rare example of expressive, free drawing in fantasy art. I really like them. Flicking through rq2 there is not as much as I remebered. But it did a tremendous amount to sell RQ2 and Glorantha to me. That's the power of art that hits the mark. Of course the game worked excellently too, it all came together in a great package.

I do still like the River of cradles /Sun County/ shadows on the borderland covers. They brought the ancient setting to life. Although now I would criticise the rendering/drawing of the main figures in the foreground of river of cradles, overall it worked great, down to the details of the newtlings fishing at the river banks. Shadows on the border land had a great suspense about it , Cthulhu meets Indiana Jones, meets Glorantha, though I found the interior art disappointing. 

There is a lot of D&D 5e illustration that is awful, but lots that works well too. I still think the starter set cover is very succesful. It captures  a sense of the epic and fantastic. Quite a feat for an artist.

On 2 March 2016 at 4:25 PM, Paid a bod yn dwp said:

And whats the official version of the Mudshark? 

From the horses mouth( well Chaosium's) , the mudshark is intended as the same image as posted in the link above ; a labyrinthodont , or Koolasuchus varient as seen in this walking with dinosaurs video

51 minutes ago, jux said:

Just seeing how recent RPG products look like, there is no excuse of letting down production values in today's market. It does not matter you are not FFG. I don't see why I should expect anything less from Chaosium than:
http://www.modiphius.com/
http://cubicle7.co.uk/
http://schwalbentertainment.com/
http://site.pelgranepress.com/

And some of mu favorites in Europe regarding artwork are games like: Shadow of Esteren, Würm, Aquelarre, KULT: Divinity Lost, Symbaroum, etc.

Yes I think gone are the days of mediocre illustration in RPG products. If you want it to be a success it really needs to be something that inspires, and keeps you wanting to pick up the book. 

There's a lot of talent out there. I expect a new RQ with industry leading production values. Even if it takes a Kickstarter to get first choice artists.

there is an opportunity to make this game very big again as with RQ2 when it challenged D&D in the early eighties.

if it's packaged right then Glorantha could have mass appeal I think.

It would be excellent to see some awe inspiring art work. Some certainly needs to be eye catching to capture the drama, power, and scale of myth and legend. Maybe in the spirit of the cinematic tension, drama, scale , and magic of the D&d starter set cover. 

There is such a huge scope to flesh out the ancient cultures and fantasy like never before. It shouldn't use past Gloranthan art work as a mile stone, it's an opportunity for something even more spectacular 

Of the examples in this thread I think the  "hermann The Towers of Bois-Maury " has some great qualities. Original vision with some stunning compositions, beautifully drawn.

Its a great example of the excellent work being made in graphic novels at the moment, and could be very well suited to RQ too.

A lot of RQ 3 illustration were just awful, others were competent but very dry and unexciting. 

The succesful pieces from the RQ3 era IMO were the covers for River of Cradles , Suncounty, shadows on the Borderland, and the Dorastor book. Strangers inPrax wasn't particularly inspiring , colours a bit too garish, not a great composition. 

Interior wise, River of cradles had expressive elements of Louise Perrin, but in some images the draughtsmanship was a bit too off. But over all I preferred the treatment to the interior work in Dorastor which was very dry.

Rq 2 Louise Perrin illustrations avoided that overly dry treatment that some illustrators adhere to. Very sensitive drawings which left room for the imagination as well, something that I think is important particulary in fantasy art. Dry overly detailed work provokes very little reaction in me. 

Nothing wrong with detail, but it can be rendered in a more expressive way. It's always about balance really, if there are tightly rendered areas, they should be balanced with more broken areas etc. 

Same goes for colour balance. I find some of the pictures in GtG horribly garish in the use of colour. Whilst I appreciate the attempt to render the particulars of Glorantha clothing culture etc the use colour is not great, and the compositions very unexciting (sorry) Colour effects the ability to express mood and atmosphere. If it's turned up high and over saturated then it becomes an ineffective tool, it's always better to keep a bit in reserve, other wise it's the equivalent of the artist shouting at full volume with colour, it get quite tiring for the viewer.

i think the new preview of the sable rider looks very good. It's descriptive but at the same time leaves room for the imagination. It's also very good strong draughtsmanship, and has that working drawing feel, that helps stimulate the imagination. Although it's detailed it remains open in its rendering. It pleasing to look at, and encourages me to look more, which is the sign of a succesful piece. I really hope we see more of that work, it's fresh and well balanced, and exciting.

I really hope we don't see the new RQ using past illustrations, it needs to be fresh and exciting, and cinematic in places. It should also have a different art direction from heroquest. The jan pospisil colour pieces I've already alluded to just don't feel right, colour wise and composition. They all have a really similar feel which is limited in what it can express- it all becomes a bit samey no matter the subject. 

IMO the starter set cover for the new D&D box set has a very succesful balance in terms of composition , colour, rendering of detail etc It's quite painterly, but the artist knows when to put detail in and when to leave it out, draughtsmanship is great. It has a cinematic excitement, which is helped by the scale and drama portrayed. 

I know it's a generic fantasy of D&D, but it portrays that genre very successfully, with the pictorial balance that I have touched on , and strong draughtsmanship. Importantly It leaves room for the imagination.

If this kind of quality, could be applied to new RQ & Glorantha, I think it could have big mainstream appeal.  

12 hours ago, Mankcam said:

It has been suggested to look at images of folk from Thracian, Dacian, Halstatt, and Mycenaean origin for assistance portraying the Orlanthi.

Dacians, Halstatt Kelts, and Thracians seemed to be a great fit for the kind of Orlanthi that are being described now.

However I initially thought that Mycenaeans were an odd choice, but this notion was obscured by my impressions of Hellenic Greece which, of course, historically occurred much later.

My knowledge deficit here was my shortfall, as there are certainly many aspects of Mycenaean culture that do seem to mesh quite well for analogies for Orlanthi. Whilst this may not be the case in every Mycenaean depiction, there is many facets that obviously have influenced current depictions of the Orlanthi people.

Here is a picture of Mycenaean Warriors which appears more or less consistent with contemporary Orlanthi descriptions. Note some of the clothing styles, as well as the architecture in the background which seems to be along the lines of the building depictions that have been discussed above:

Here's a link to some info on Mycenaean men, some of which which I can see pertaining to the Orlanthi in many ways: http://helens-daughter.livejournal.com/10233.html

All this seems to be vaguely along the lines of my early impressions of Orlanthi during the late RQ2/early RQ3 period, before the more celtic, saxon, and norse influences were permeated through the late RQ3/HeroWars/HeroQuest 1 era of Gloranthan publications.

I do like what I see here

 

Really glad to see Glorantha returning to its Bronze Age mythical feel. The Norse/ Saxon/ Celtic Britain thing really didn't feel right for Glorantha, but for some reason was the dominant depiction of Orlanthi for a while. Very pleased to see it returning to a more classical Bronze Age setting. Much more like RQ2, which had so much appeal originally.

Same goes for the west, which when I read the rq3 supplements was medieval. Odd how it went so off track, but great it appears to have been righted now.

Thanks Jeff and co for bringing back the appeal for me of this great setting. With a new Runequest, and Glorantha realigned I'll be eagerly waiting for future publications. 

3 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

Last one in this series for now... An Esrolian townhouse.

Whilst the general layout is similar to the Sartarite townhouse, there are distinct differences. The main entrance does not directly enter the building but opens onto a vestibule and then the central courtyard. The main doors are directly ahead, with a waiting room for visitors and clients. An audience/feast hall with a raised platform is to the left, and entry to the private portions of the house lie beyond this with an imposing staircase up to the family rooms. Offices and storerooms lie to either side of the corridor leading to the stairs. On the other side of the house are the kitchens, rooms for retainers and storerooms. The upper floor is occupied by the family, with the matriarch having a suite of rooms in the upper left, and other large rooms for other important members of the household. Elsewhere are rooms for children, and chambers for the older sons and daughters.

Looking at the latest map of Notchet, many of the Great Houses have a similar layout with a central courtyard, but tend to be rectangular complexes instead of square.

Very interesting. I've learnt a lot from this thread. Where would I find the map of notchet?

59 minutes ago, Jeff said:

I'd certainly commission art that looks far less Northern European today.

Thanks for that. Does that hold true for the wilder Orlanthi like the Skanthi. Would the RQ 3 illustrations in dorastor still hold up for them? 

11 minutes ago, Steve said:

Jeff, would you say that the following illustrations from Sartar: Kingdom of Heroes are still accurate or not so much? How about those diagrams of the towns of Jonstown, Swenstown, Wilmskirk etc?

 

Yes good point. this portrayal seems more in line with the King of Dragon pass app, rather then the esrolian influenced Mediterranean look that Jeff has shown us. 

I too would really like clarification on whether these images have a place in Sartar? They certainly look more in line with the images of the Skanthi steads from Dorastor RQ3 supplement that Jeff has endorsed for these wilder Orlanthi.

7 hours ago, Mankcam said:

I really like the look of this Orlanthi stead/village. I do see alot of square-based houses, but not too many with large internal courtyards, which leads me to think this is from northern Dragon Pass rather than southern, due to the climate. This could work well, although I do agree with others that in heavily forested regions you could find alot more wood/daub structures. However I do like the notion that Orlanthi are quite skilled in masonry, as this lends consistency to why the settlers of New Pavis easily adapted their homes to the region. I can live with this vision of Orlanthi :-)

looking at the King of Dragon pass app, it's clear there is quite a difference with this representation of the Sartar Orlanthi. Jeffs clarifications feel more like a return to RQ2 in many ways. It also for me makes a lot more sense in the context of Glorantha. The Sartar Orlanthi feel a lot more established & civilised with their stone work buildings ( though not all buildings would be stone necessarily). The more Mediterranean feel of the buildings is better suited( at least in my opinion). 

King of Dragon pass in contrast feels much more Northern European, Saxon, & Nordic. Although I like the game, it has a portrayal of Orlanthi that never felt right in the context of the esrolia/dragon pass/Pavis axis. Though I feel some of that portrayal may still hold true for the more northern tribes like the Skanthi. What do others think? 

37 minutes ago, Jon Hunter said:

I tend to find I get chased by broos

Ah I see! You've been playing it wrong

4 hours ago, TRose said:

 I was thinking. On other games forums they discuss how to get a few more points of damage out of a class and how your character sucks is he is not maximized for damage output. Here we discuss what type of house our character will see on his travels.

More importantly what type of house are we going to be chasing Broos around with our broad swords!?

For me Jeffs clarifications make sense. I always found the sudden change from areas like Esrolia to the pseudo northern european image rather jarring.

Looking at Dorastar again, the Talastari orlanthi feel more tribal and wilder now, in contrast to the more civilised Sartar clans. Theres more contrast to distinguish them, which I feel makes sense. 

1 hour ago, Jeff said:

 

The only piece of "canon" that contradicts this is Sartar Kingdom of Heroes' reference to log longhouses. Which I already amended in the Guide to state that:

"most Orlanthi reside in sturdy, all-purpose wood, stone, or half-timbered houses (called a "hall" or a "longhouse") appropriate for the weather and resources in the region. A typical stead includes a couple of longhouses, each housing one or more nuclear families and often their livestock; villages typically have more. Other buildings include sheds for animals, hay, and other storage, workshops, and other outbuildings." Given that said description covers everything from Esrolia to Fronela, it hardly seems to restrict me.

So just to restate: most steads in Sartar and Heortland consist of a group of buildings arranged in an Earth Rune formation around a courtyard. They typically have stone foundations, and then are build of wood, stone, or half-timber, depending on the local resources. 

The difference between Inner and Outer Hearth is who is permitted within. You entertain guests in the Outer Hearth, family in the Inner.

Ah ha. So thats the kind of look for Orlanthi settlements in Sartar,  combined with the info you've given us on the steads built to a Square earth rune shape with courtyard? So a settlement like Apple lane would have this sort of style of building, and Jonstown too?

3 minutes ago, Jeff said:

The steads in Dorastor are frontier steads of the Talastari in the Skanthi style. Given the proximity to Dorastor, those steads are fairly hastily bullt (like the sod homestead in the Cherokee Outlet my grandmother was born in). The settlements in Dragon Pass are older (more than a century old) and their rulers far wealthier and cosmopolitan than those of the Bilini (not to mention the Skanthi). 

Thanks these distinctions really help. Your grandmother must have been a tough cookie  

3 hours ago, Jeff said:

The normal stead in Dragon Pass looks like this:

Does this affect the material on Orlanthi steads in the OP RQ3 supplement Doraster, or does that still stand as is?

Excuse my ignorance, but is The Coming Storm meant as an update and replacement for Sartar kingdom of Heroes? or as a compliment and extension of that material? 

From the discussion it could be interpreted that it may have additional background clarifications, that supersedes the previous Sartar books? 

Thanks for the new insight Jeff.

For me this makes more sense. In the past some interpretations have had too many Viking connotations for my liking, making it difficult to interpret/accept in the bigger cultural picture. 

There's a much better flow to the regions and cultures now.You can see how they relate ( from esrolia to dragon pass, to pavis for example) I very much like this clarification of the orlanthi stead