creativehum

So, since the spell descriptions states this is a spell cast between priest, only priests can have it.

That's my read. And yours as well?

Nonetheless, in the quote from the text form RQG it state: "This spell allows the caster to trade one use of any Rune magic (except this one!) in exchange for one use of any Rune spell known by another priest of any cult."

I looked back to CoP for reference. But the description of Spell Trading in RQG seems to say the same thing.

Hence the question.

In the description of Spell Trading in RQG we find:

Quote

This spell allows the caster to trade one use of any Rune magic (except this one!) in exchange for one use of any Rune spell known by another priest of any cult.

This phrasing suggests the trade is made between two priests. 

Yet the spell seems to be available to Initiates of Issaries with no qualifier. Looking back at Cults of Prax I find that the spell is listed for Priest, not Initiates.

I assume this spell is reserved for Priests of the Cult?

I am specifically asking because in RQG the regenerated character Harmast has the spell, but he is an initiate.

I love Deadwood too. A lot.

But having been roped into reading a lot of ancient history and myths from the bibliography in RuneQuest 2nd (I'm reading Geoffrey Bibby's Four Thousand Years Ago right now) and the Glorantha Recommended Readings page (also currently reading Herodotus' The Histories, with others from the list on my bedside table), I have to admit I'm getting a disconnect between any place in Glorantha and Deadwood. The reference to Deadwood and Westerns is honestly bumping me in unexpected ways. (Note that in the answer Jeff gave to my questions upthread, most of the themes he mentioned could be dropped into Glorantha without leaning on any tropes or sensibilities one leans on for a Western. The exception is "frontier" -- which I have a hard time translating in my imagination from what the word meant for the Western Territories to the places that ancient urban centers might consider alien or other or different but anything but a frontier as the word is used in Westerns as I see it.)

This isn't anything that can be argued, of course. I'm loving all the sensibilities and point-of-view of Ancient History I'm soaking up, and look forward to sharing it with players. But if others see Deadwood as an analogue to a spot in Glorantha, great. That's the nature of the beast. We're all going to bring what we want to bring to the place.

Well, here's the thing:

The information for the PCs in the Quickstart is on one page.

Does that make it easier or more comfortable to read? At least for me, no. It's wall of text with lots of words all crammed together. My eyes would be swimming (and drowning) looking for a specific skill or trying to pluck the PCs Rune Points, for example. (I'm not falling the QS for cramming everyone on one page; it's a layout/space issue.)

From this we know that few pages doesn't mean better.

Now, whether my design decision was correct or not I don't know. But the thinking was for each page or section of pages to contain a desecrate chunk of info: Character background, or Rune Spells, or whatever. The Table of contents is there to make it easy to move reference whatever one is looking for. And my guess is that within an hour of play the Players will have a sense of where different items in the booklet are.

At best I could shave a few pages off. But perhaps at the expense of cramming the text on the page. But his was another design choice: I want the text to have some breathing room. I'm less concerned about the page count than I am about usability. There may be be twenty pages... but once you turn to the Rune Spell section there the spells are, in a format easy to read and use. And it will soon be one page shorter (see posts above) and I'll paginate it on at two page spread. When it is time for combat, all the combat info is on a two page spread near the back.

For whatever reason I'm afraid of the page count. A RQ Adventure has a lot of info. There's no getting around that. But what I care about is when a player want to look up a skill or a Rune Spell it happens easily and efficiently: check the table of contents, go to the page, there's the info, ready to read, reference, and use easily.

The only place to really cut would be in the Rune descriptions... but those come into play not only in personalty but in Augmenting skills. So I wanted those at hand so the Players could see them. So I am cramming more than one would find on a character sheet into the booklets. But I also think the extra info is important. 

While the page count might be intimidating to some (I don't think it will be to my players however, as I know them and they love poking around new games) I do think once they are put into use the design as a reference document that works will ultimately alleviate that. 

Of course, different people, different tastes, and so on.

23 minutes ago, g33k said:

IIRC, it was said at the time that analysis-paralysis was an issue at the table, and also that some of the larger lists of cult spells produced TL;DR effect  for some players.

Or maybe I am just remembering commentary/speculation ...

It was covered in this blog post about the feedback coming in from the Runequest Gloranatha: Quickstart Rules and Adventure:

Quote

Gaining Use of Special Cult Rune Spells

The other issue that came up is that many new players were overwhelmed by the options they had with Rune magic. Some cults had 14 or more special rune spells - when you include the 15 common magic spells, that's nearly 30 Rune spells to choose from! Not surprisingly many people were overwhelmed.

And this is something that bugged me from the beginning. I love the flexibility of the new Rune magic system, but worried about the decision block and learning curve it created. The feedback we received cemented my concerns.

Fortunately, we've solved it. Now during chargen, your character starts with three special rune spells from your cult (and subcult if relevant): one for each Rune point you have. If you spent points of POW to acquire additional Rune points, you get to pick another spell for each additional point spent.

Your player can also use any of the 11 common rune spells. Most of these are either spells affecting magic (Dispel Magic, Extension, Multispell, etc.) or spells applicable to every cult (Divination, Sanctify, Warding, etc.). Heal Wound also remains a common Rune spell because it provides a way to potentially mitigate RQ's extreme lethality. Enchantments (Armoring Enchantment etc) only become available once you are a Rune master.

As characters gain more Rune points during the course of play, they get to select more special Rune magic from their cult (as long as more are available). 

This way, players are eased into using all special Rune magic available to their character. This isn't an issue of balance—that's provided by the spell cost in Rune points and the character's limited number of points—but of getting around information overload. 

This also ends up making subcult and associate cult special magic easier to manage - and more meaningful!

I like the change in part because, yes, it cuts down the number of spells a new player has to learn. And I don't mean only a new player to RQ, but a player new to a specific cult with a new list of spells. By cutting down the list of Rune Spells a player has a chance to learn a bit about the cult and its spells when he or she picks the spells.

More importantly, in my view, is that it gives the player somewhere to go with the Adventurer and his or her place within the cult. By limiting the number of Rune Spells at first, but proving a list of spells that could be gained, the player has several carrots to shoot for. 

And to get those spells the character must raise his or her POW so he or she can burn those points to get more Rune Points. This not only means the Adventurer has more points to spend on an adventure, but has a wider range of spell. As the Adventurer gains new spells he or she also has the power to activate more and more of them during an adventure. These growth of the character's power is thus revealed on two fronts.

How is POW raised? With checks during adventures and with ceremonies during Holy Days. This means staying on good terms with the community and the cult, tying the character back into the world and encouraging roleplaying within the subtler aspects of the game. All of this allows the Player and the adventure to grow into the cult and invest more and more into it over time.

Following up on SS's point, are the plans to get 5.2 and other books in print?

40 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Also, the Lunar Occupation of Sartar lasted only about 23 years. RuneQuest has been around for 40 years, and it is time we open up the setting to new possibilities.

Without doubt. I wouldn't suggest otherwise.

The fact is, given the breadth and depth of inspirational material (both geographically and temporally) people can (and in my view should) grab whatever section of history or portion of the map and build out whatever kind of play they want. Whatever Chaosium chooses to publish will have little bearing on what I might do at my table, since I'll be doing what I want at my table.

I asked because I wanted to know what you thought might be valid or important themes in Glorantha. 

Thanks for the reply!

Thanks!

10 hours ago, Jeff said:

Who knows what you will think of it. But Robin and I both feel that post-Lunar actually lets us play more around with Gloranthan themes (and themes that Glorantha is built on), and gives us far more tension to play around with. Deadwood is a far more interesting town without foreign conquerers.

@Jeff, could you talk more about these themes?

I'm a relative newcomer to Glorantha (started reading Hero Wars materials in the early 2000s) and have poked around a little bit, going back to the RQ2 rules. I've run two convention games using the HeroQuest rules... so in some ways it is still all new to me.

Starting with the History section in RQ2, the conflict between the Lunars and the Heortlings seemed like the biggest storyline of the setting, and the fight over the progress (or stopping) of the Red Moon the main theme. 

But, of course, many RQ supplements and materials didn't dwell on this conflict at all. So Glorantha is clearly built on many themes.

For myself I'm really fascinated by the conflict between the Lunars and Heortlings (though for some reason I never see it as a matter of Braveheart, though apparently, since you bring it up a lot, many people do.) If I get a chance to run a game I'd be starting with an Orlanthi clan in 1580.

However, my reading of Glorantha material is still limited. I've mostly focused on the Lunars, the Heortlings, and the conflict in Dragon Pass.

So, could you talk more about the "themes that Glorantha is built on"? I'd really appreciate it. Thanks!

1 hour ago, jps said:

i fail to see what the entire quote is adding to the question: I picked the section that clarified the whole thing.

And, of course dropping a score of 120% down to 100% is a modification ... you've just modified it.

In RQ it's your final score that counts to determined special, critical or fumble results, it's always been like this and I have no clue why it's confusing to you.

You are correct. I got it wrong.

45 minutes ago, Eric Christian Berg said:

I think it is because the drop to 100% isn't considered a modifier.

Exactly.

I'm not sure how one could read the example from page 202 (quoted above) and read it any other way.

Also, here is the example from page 144, where the rules for over 100% are introduced (I missed it earlier): 

Quote

Example: The Lunar warrior-magician described above with 120% Kopis skill has a 24% chance of a special success, and a 6% chance of a critical success. If his skill is reduced to 100% (while reducing his opponent’s skill by –20%), his chance of a special success is based on 100%, and thus a 20% chance of a special and a 5% chance of a critical.

This seems to contradict the example on page 202. I really don't know what to make of this. (There's a lot to love in RQG, but the more I dig into the rules to prepare to play the more... well, aggravated might not be an inappropriate word.)

48 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

It does lead to the rather odd case of a fight with 200% vs 100%, where the participant with 100% is reduced to 5%, all of which are criticals! But... why not?

I didn't understand this at first, but you're right, if we're applying the rules and example from page 202.

My read on this is that if someone so outmatched does succeed against his opponent, he'll have to be amazing to make it happen!

58 minutes ago, Crel said:

Meaning that, in combat, you can never have more than a 5% crit chance and 20% special chance?

jps quoted only a portion of the text from page 202, so it might be confusing.

Here is the passage (the rules section on "Combat with Skills Above 100%" begins on p. 201, and continues to 202):

Quote

While the actual chance of hitting remains no better than 95% (due to rolls of 96–00 failing), the chance of a special or critical success continues to increase or decrease, based on the final modified chance of success. As with other skills or abilities, the final modified value is always the one used to determine the chance of special or critical successes, as well as fumbles. Thus, a Wind Lord with a 150% sword skill has a 30% of a special success, and an 8% chance of a critical hit.

So, "final chance of success" refers to the full value of the ability before the value is dropped 100% in a conflict.

The passage above (from page 202) is a clarification of the text on page 144 which introduces the rules about abilities over 100%:

Quote

While actual chance of success remains no better than 95%, the chance of a special or critical success is based on the final modified chance when making an opposed roll.

38 minutes ago, Psullie said:

Why not use the Pre-Gens from the rulebook rather than the Quickstart? 

Well, first, to my chagrin, it didn't occur to me. I started tearing into the Quickstart to prep for the convention game, and those were the characters. (I didn't realize the PCs in the core book were the same characters until recently. I skipped character creation as I read and re-read the rules, since I wasn't going to be needing that.)

Second, as noted above, there might be some spells that the adventure assumes the PCs will posses to handle certain situations, and if I strip them out the PCs might get stuck. I don't think this is the case... but keep in mind until a day ago I didn't realize the PCs in the Quickstart possessed Rune spells they wouldn't poses in the final pass of the rules.

As for this:

38 minutes ago, Psullie said:

As for the spells perhaps print a single booklet summarising all the common spells that can be shared.

Two things: 

First, even though the spells are "common" they are still given to the Initiate through the cult and the god. I want to nail down that fact and that experience for the Players. You aren't just conjuring a cult spirit... you are conjuring a spirit gifted from Orlanth through the use of the Rune of Air. I might be a fool, but I think the distinction matters. I want the "commons" Rune Spells listed with the Special Cult Rune Spells because these are all spells from the cult.

Second, I think the players can handle it. I know them all. They're sharp. They play all sorts of games. They have never played RQ... but all of them are chomping at the bit to try it. Whether or not the commons spells are in a separate booklet or not, they're still going to have 14 or so Rune spells to choose from. If they have to flip between booklets to select them then they're only more moving around pieces of paper. I'd really rather have the choices in front of them.

The fact is, with only 3 Rune Points to work with, they'll only be casting 1 to 3 Rune spells during the session. The choice of which Rune spells to cast will narrow down pretty fast depending on circumstances. Plus, I know these guys: They'll jump in with a lot of questions like, "Hey, how would I get more Rune Points?" And I could talk about how the cycle of raising your POW through spirit combat, rituals, and training to have points to burn for Rune Points is one of the key cycles of the game. They'll eat it up.

They want to play the game. I want to give them as much of the experience as possible. We've cleared a six hour slot in the open gaming area and we'll be having a good time as we kick the tires on RQG and take it out for a ride.

Well, looks like I've got some re-working to do.

You are correct that a starting PC is limited in the number of Rune Spells he or she can start with... but this is only for Special Rune Spells of the cult. 

But characters also begin with Common Rune spells, which are known to all Cults.

Here is the list from p. 74

Quote

COMMON RUNE SPELLS

• Command Cult Spirit 
• Dismiss Magic
• Divination 
• Extension 
• Find Enemy 
• Heal Wound 
• Multispell 
• Sanctify 
• Soul Sight 
• Spirit Block 
• Summon Cult Spirit 
• Warding 

So Vasana would know all of the above, plus three Special Rune Spells from her cult.

The trick is that several of both the Common and Special Rune Spells listed in RuneQuest Glorantha aren't listed in the Quickstart. So not only does Vasana have too many Rune Spells, she is also lacking Rune Spells that are available in the Core Book. Meanwhile, several Rume spells listed for Vanasa in the Quickstart are no longer available to her at all per the core rules. 

I am assuming the same will be true for the other characters as well!

So, I have a choice to make:

1. Either leave the booklets as they are, as it is merely a Quickstart to introduce the game. (Nothing will be particularly broken if some spells are missing and some extra spells are available)
2. Or rework the Booklets with the new spells and restrictions from RuneQuest Glorantha.

Part of me would love to bring the booklets in alignment with the official rules. And another part of me is thinking, "Is the extra work worth it?"

I'm also wondering if spells placed in the Quickstart are there specifically to help the PCs along in the adventure, and if they might be stymied if they don't have them. (I'm not familiar enough with the adventure yet to know the answer to this. Perhaps @Jason Durall might have some thoughts on this point.)

In celebration of Runequest Gloranatha: Quickstart Rules and Adventure coming home with ENnie Gold (and because I'll be running the Quickstart at a local convention at the end of the month) I decided to take the Pregenerated Player Characters and build little booklets for each PC. I just uploaded them over in the files section under the "Fantasy Other" Category. (There doesn't seem to be a RuneQuest Glorantha category yet.)

Each booklet contains the relevant Rune Descriptions, Rune Spells, Spirit Magic Spells, and short descriptions of the respective PC's cult, as well as all the other information contained on each of the PC's character sheet from the Quickstart.

My design goal was to build a little booklet which would allow a Player to flip through the booklet and find the relevant information for a specific rule or topic on a given page.

I'm a big fan of the A5/8.5x5.5 format at the gaming table. They take up less space, you can hold them in your hands easily when flipping through them. The PDF is in a A5 format. You can print the PDFs using "booklet" formatting and get a 20 page doc on five sheets of paper. (There's a short table of contents after the coverer page. The whole idea is to make an easy to use, easy to access document for someone sitting down to play RuneQuest Glorantha for the first time.)

The pages were built in A5 format. But you can easily print them in 8.5x5.5 format with only the slightest shrinkage to the text and no real effect on presentation. 

These is a format that i came up with for myself, of course. Which reflects my own thinking and design principles. But I hope people might find them helpful for getting new demonstrations of the game up and running.

I haven't done a final proof on these yet, so if you notice anything askew, please let me know!

Thanks!

https://basicroleplaying.org/files/file/642-rqg-vasana-quickstartpdf/

https://basicroleplaying.org/files/file/643-rqg-sorala-quickstartpdf/

https://basicroleplaying.org/files/file/639-rqg-yanioth-quickstartpdf/

https://basicroleplaying.org/files/file/640-rqg-harmast-quickstartpdf/

https://basicroleplaying.org/files/file/641-rqg-vostor-quickstartpdf/

The way I look at Glorantha's setting material is like myth: 

The tales of any mythology draw from similar inspiration and contradict each other all the time.

Each group of players sitting around a table is simply a bunch of storytellers gathered around to use the stuff available to them to make a story that matters to them. There's no wrong or right to it. What matters is that they're getting something out of it, saying something about the world and life that matters to them.

Now, I do think there is sometimes the fear of writing something on line and people showing up and saying, "That's wrong! That's not how Glorantha works! You're getting Glorantha all wrong."

I have no fear of that. But I can see how it makes some people tense. It is something that happens with deeply beloved RPG settings. But I do wish people would be more curious about what someone is doing with his or her Glorantha rather than first taking the stance that here is an opportunity to correct something. 

7 hours ago, David Scott said:

Not (currentlyj RQG compatible and it overlaps with family history. If your group is from all over Dragon Pass, it’s not relevant for everyone (in my game of 6 players, 2 are Sartarites). 

Hi David, 

Thanks for the answer. If you don't mind, I'm still digging in on this.

I understand that if all the PCs are not from the same clan it isn't relevant. (For the record, I'm planning on starting a game with everyone in the same clan.)

I also understand that a small portion of the Clan Generator might overlap with the RQG Character History section, but that is an easy enough matter to deal with. (In fact, I'm probably setting the start of my campaign in 1580. I'm really interested in the question, "Do you get involved in the troubles of the world if they are still far away?" So I'll be rebuilding the Character History section anyway.)

So, when you say the Clan Generator (and I'm assuming we're talking about the clan generator found in Sartar: Kingdom of Heroes as well, yes?) is not compatible with RQG do mean on a mechanical level? Or that the historical elements are off?

The value for the Clan generator were two-fold for me:

It brought the mythical, strange history of Glorantha right to the players in a direct manner, allowing them to interact with it through the choices and questions rather than me simply narrating a bunch of information at them. It also gave me clues about the kinds of things they, as Players, might be interested in -- which gods, which enemies, and so on. By listening to their answers, I can find enemies, goals, and conflicts to place before them that they've told me will hook them.

So, as a tool for play I see the value. But I'm curious if there's anything in the historical record of the questionnaire that will bump against more recent material.

Thanks again for your response.

12 hours ago, David Scott said:

Vol 2 - Orlanth is dead:

The campaign is good, i'd ignore the clan generation for RQG.

Why do you suggest ignoring the clan generation? 
(I ask because I found it really fun when I set up a game years ago. I also understand it is up to me to use or not use. But I'm curious what David thinks about this.)

you know what

this place is too much work

A couple of thoughts of duel wielding being the default:

First the rules say a trainer must be found, at the discretion of the Referee. So, if the Referee says a trainer isn't yet available to the PCs, then the PCs will not be starting as duel-wielding combatants. 

Then the PCs, if they want this ability, have to seek out a trainer, and get him to take them on as students. (I'm seeing some effort (if not adventures) in this.)

Second, the PCs will have to raise their off-hand skill starting at 5% (with Manipulation modifier). This means that training up will be a slog.  Apart from downtime/seasonal training the character will have to spend time attacking and parrying with a low chance of success. For a few fights. This means, if I'm reading the rules right (new to RQ) lots of broken weapons and incoming blows with extra damage from opponents.

It is for this reason I think there are very few duel-weapon trainers. It's hard to get good at it... and risky to try to get good at it.

So while becoming a skilled duel-wielder will undoubtedly be a good thing to become, getting there is going to both take time and be risky... if the PCs are even able to begin training toward this goal at all.

The answer was actually a question asking me if I already knew the answer to the question, assuming for some reason I knew the answer. 

Strangely, I did not already know the answer to the question I had asked.

I wasn't referring to the speed of the reply.

6 minutes ago, styopa said:

That's certainly a way you can take it, but should that happen what, nearly 60% of the time (for characters with 100% - I'm assuming Phil's math-fu is strong)? 

I call for die rolls to (generally) give me RESULTS, not indeterminate states?

I hear you. And I said much the same a week or two ago.

But  one of my approaches these days is to meet a game on its own terms and see if it has an approach or something to offer I might not have thought of on my own.

"If RQG has a lot of results that leave a conflict unresolved," I ask myself, "what might that do for me? How would I referee that? How should I approach that to make that work?"

32 minutes ago, Paid a bod yn dwp said:

I presume Dodge is still allowed if you make a shield attack? 

I presume not, since Dodge is an option in place of a parry, and if you can't parry you can't dodge? (I'm inferring and guessing here, but that's what I came up with.)