Darius West
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Posts posted by Darius West
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2 hours ago, mfbrandi said:
Why are there so many little cold suns scattered about the place?
Instead ask why dead, dismembered Nysalor–Gbaji is “present in all of the world”?
(e.g. Lords of Terror, p.I have put a lot of thought into the whole "Masks of Yelmalio" issue, and I have a good answer. Yelmalio is a Soldier deity. He fights in a phalanx, and is not a god of individual warriors. He is a god of many names and faces because soldiers are a collective when they fight, unlike warriors, who are always individuals. Each different name is a valid deity in their own right, just as each hoplite in a formation is their own person, and the Cold Sun Planet represents them all equally, in a mystery not dissimilar to the Christian Trinity. That is why so many societies seem to have their own Cold Sun deity; each is a separate soldier.
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On 5/14/2023 at 1:55 PM, zoomzoombug said:
Hi,
To my understanding, Dawn Age Orlanthi thought Elmal was the Sun, but now in the Third Age, everyone agrees Yelm is the Sun, and Elmal is a narrow view of Yelmalio the Lightfore.
In the Dawn Age, did worshipping Elmal grant fire powers? If not, wouldn’t it have seemed weird that the fiery Sun Disk didn’t grant fire magic?
Did the worship “go” to Elmal, who is Lightfore, or to the Sun Disk, associated with Yelm?Thanks in advance for the clarification.
I draw your attention to page 169 of The Book of Heortling Mythology, the Yelmalio entry:
"Yelmalio: God of the Winter Sun, Preserver of the Light. When Yelm traveled to the Underworld, Yelmalio preserved the dim, cold light until he returned. He also fought against Orlanth at the Hill of Gold, and even stole fire from Elmal one time. He is now worshipped by some Orlanthi who have abandoned Elmal."
Clearly Elmal is a different but similar deity to Yelmalio, and he does have fire magic.
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On 5/14/2023 at 3:58 AM, soltakss said:
It is simple, really.
You ally with Broos and send them against your enemies. In the battle many Broos die and many of your enemies die. That is a win-win situation, as broos die and your enemies die.
Assuming the Broos don't simply take the half payment and F off.
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12 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:
Isn't that just Daka Fal (possibly going by another name)?
Imagine the Daka Fal cult as Carmanian Nobles conducting a seance, perhaps? Sorcerous overtones, no leaping and hooting baboons working themselves into a frenzy, pleasant beverages and sweetmeats served subsequent.
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On 5/11/2023 at 3:15 AM, Rodney Dangerduck said:
As I understand things, Praxian - Broo alliances happen frequently. (This factoid shocked our old-timey Glorantha group, but I don't think we played much of the Praxian material)
Given that pretty much every Praxian major deity hates chaos passionately, I don't see how their followers can ever justify allying with broos, or scorpionmen, or any chaos creatures. I strongly doubt there are enough illuminated Chieftains to make this even remotely plausible, plus how likely is it that they will be overthrown on the spot, murdered by Stormbulls and then the whole clan goes on an anti-chaos rampage against their new "allie"? I think such Praxian/Chaotic alliances would need to be highly covert at best.
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I actually have a Spiritualist Church in my suburb. I also have friend who is a stage magician who has an entire act based on conducting a Victorian Era seance, and it is completely unnerving even when you know it is fake. Like Ouija boards and Gypsy Tarot Readers, Seances are evocative and familiar folkloric rituals that potentially give players that good scare they are looking for from a CoC game. I look forwards to reading the Blasphemous Tome.
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5 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:
seems to me 99% is a little bit hard, isn't it ? 🙂
Yes, more or less 99% of chaotic activity is probably evil
however 99% of evil activity seems to me too much. Is black fang chaotic ? Is a cattle raid (or even a feud) a good thing because it is not chaotic ?
All thieves are not named Robin and don't work for the poors (and other activies).
It is, from my perspective "too easy" to consider any bad thing is chaotic.
To clarify 99% of chaos is pretty evil. Not all chaos is evil, just the vast bulk of it. There is also plenty of evil that has nothing to do with chaos, agreed.
As to your classic Orlanthi feuds and cattle raids being good or evil, we must remember that either side can tap out and pay tribute, but instead they prefer to do unto others knowing what can be done unto them in return. This amounts to consent. On a good feuds and raiding is money for nothing and your cows for free. On a bad day it is the same thing, but you aren't the recipient. On a really bad day you go on holiday to the River Styx. It is therefore neither good nor evil, but a very dangerous sport.
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15 minutes ago, DrGoth said:
It's the last of those that is relevant here. What I want is the freedom for each gaming group to decide for itself where they want the truth for their game to lie. I don't want someone telling me that the right way to play in the world is "Chaos is absolutely evil, no two ways about it. If you are playing any other way you are wrong." I also don't want someone telling me "The Lunars are absolutely right. Using chaos is the way to go. If you are playing any other way you are wrong."
No, Chaos isn't absolute evil, but neither is cancer. Cancer is just the system of the body getting it wrong and breaking down. It's all a part of Glorantha's "world machine" but Chaos is entropy and wear, leading to death. Chaos serves the necessary function of being a good adversary to make a compelling story. And yes, perhaps you can negotiate with some Chaos creatues, and even feel like you are in control. After all, even Praxians hired Broos to help them fight the Lunars at Moonbroth... The politics of that slice of Gloranthan history is... fraught?
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On 4/30/2023 at 8:44 PM, mfbrandi said:
on the one hand, the Nysalorean illuminates are right: the warring sides in Glorantha don’t really have a casus belli — “These people and their gods are all crazy. Why can’t we all just get along? Stop choking me!” — still, it looks like fun, I’m gonna hit something;
Are they really right though? I mean, Chaos monsters did murder Rashoran despite his tolerance. The idea of forming a tolerant relationship with a lethal malignant tumor (like Chaos) doesn't sound very wise to me. It sounds to me like embracing the Death of the World. Then there is the whole power gamer aspect of deception that goes with Nysalor, that essentially allows people to infiltrate even enemy cults without the gods being able to object. Nysalor is Gbaji, there is no contradiction, and Arkat was right to rid Glorantha of the bulk of this insidious threat. Also, Nysalor is a very shabby and inaccurate rip-off of Zen Buddhism which insults it.
On 4/30/2023 at 8:44 PM, mfbrandi said:on the other hand, there is an intolerable hole-which-is-not-a-hole in the world — Earth or Glorantha? In this person’s mind, probably both — and we must fill it with blood; Orlanth is a stand-up chap, and anyone who doesn’t think so can duke it out with Robert Bly.
Glorantha is an RPG which features bronze age action and adventure. Are we apologizing for having fun now?
On 4/30/2023 at 8:44 PM, mfbrandi said:I get the feeling — maybe wrongly — that some people want Orlanthism/the Lightbringer religion to be acceptable as an IRL religion of the religion-must-tell-you-how-to-lead-your-life stripe. But some presentations of Orlanth make one think that one of these must be true:
- it was written by a crazy person;
- it is satire and we are supposed to be in on the joke;
- it is a joke at our expense.
While I think it is crazy, I can understand how some people could feel more attached to their religious identification via an RPG experience than they do to the religion of their birth. I think that is unfortunate on so many levels.
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14 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:
Evil =/= Chaos.
A 99% correlation is not a perfect correlation, it's true.
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12 hours ago, Peter Hart said:
In the Ritual of Rebirth in the Bagog cult write-up in Cults of Terror (p36) it states that "Old weapon skills of the devoured will remain intact, as will former knowledge." I was wondering what happened to the devoured's INT, POW and CHA after they are reborn to the Scorpion Queen. Would these be the same as before or alternatively reduced in some way, perhaps capped at the species max for scorpion men (INT 14, POW 14 and CHA 21)?
You have to wonder how much the devoured's former personality survives along with their other memories. It just adds to the horror of Chaos.
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12 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:
And, to add to the above, Mongoose RQ first edition had chariots, and references them specifically in the section on chases. Also, Mercenaries and Soldiers can select Driving (+10%) as a professional skill.
Most of the people on this forum despise Mongoose for various reasons. As to mercenary soldiers and drive skill (a) 10% won't achieve much (b) are you sure the primary use of the skill isn't for driving supply wagons?
On 5/9/2023 at 4:00 AM, M Helsdon said:The basic components remained constant, even early chariots had suspension. Chariots rarely worked as shock weapons and scythed wheels were not very practical.
The Ur 'chariot' was more a battle cart or wagon (the four wheels make it a very different vehicle).
For very good reasons.... It's not a very wise thing to do. It was claimed to help them use their body weight to control their horses in a race; whilst there's many things that are inaccurate in Ben Hur, the chariot race shows what happens when things go wrong. The actors and stunt men did not lash their reins around their bodies. Just watch what happens when Messala has his reins lashed around his arms, and then imagine how much worse having them around his waist would be.
Even basic components change dramatically from culture to culture in shape, in material, in attachments. If you compare Scythian, Chinese, Greek, Celtic, Egyptian, Hittite, Assyrian, Roman, Seleucid etc. chariots change over time. A military shock chariot is very different from a racing chariot or a hunting chariot or a religious chariot or a war chariot designed for missile combat.
As to the inaccuracies vis Ben Hur, I think I read about the body lacing of the reins in in Vera Oliviva's "Chariot Racing in the Ancient World" and a couple of other places. Does Gibbons mention it? Racers all carried daggers for hacking themselves loose from the reins, and it was made deliberately dangerous to make the sport more exciting, as well as allegedly offering the drivers more control over the larger 4 horse teams due to being able to exert greater strength. It was exclusively a Roman thing and mainly late empire afaik.
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8 hours ago, David Scott said:
The easiest reply is
Are cows (or other herd animals) able to be taught to play simple musical interments? 🙂
If it isn't on YouTube, the answer is they probably don't. I found an elephant having a go at a drum, but frankly they weren't showing much talent.
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The whole concept of 6 Ages is great. Living through Glorantha "Before Time" in this way is a very original idea. I am apprehensive about the rise of Chaos in the new Lights Going Out expansion (for my poor clan, not for the game itself though). This is exciting!
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On 5/6/2023 at 8:57 PM, M Helsdon said:
Chariot technology didn't change very much between the Bronze and Iron Age, and nor did the techniques of driving them. The only significant difference was the bands of iron that held the circle of the wheel together; earlier sinew or bronze was used for the tires.
I have to disagree. Chariot design changes remarkably over time. The materials change. The choice of weight changes. The number of horses change. Sometimes they are missile platforms, and sometimes they are shock weapons. Eventually suspension is developed. Systems of reins change. The wheels are separated from the axle (not the case in Ur chariots). The yokes change. The armoring of the sides varies a lot from culture to culture and over time. Then there are the scythed wheels etc. The variance between a chariot from Ur changes dramatically when compared to an Egyptian or Celtic chariot. There is clearly a lot of design change over time. While the technology of the chariot itself remains identifiable, virtually every element of the design is refined over time. As to no chages in driving them, the Romans are on record as lashing the reins around their bodies, which most earlier charioteers didn't do afaik.
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On 5/5/2023 at 11:03 PM, Jeff said:
Given that prior to RQG there were only two RQ books set in Dragon Pass (Snakepipe Hollow and Apple Lane), I can certainly understand why neither featured chariots, since both involve combat in enclosed or underground locations.
For the past 40 years there has been a remarkable dearth of chariots in RQ. While I like the idea of chariots immensely, there is no mention of them in any of the histories or lore either, quite apart from what was written in RQ2 and RQ3. No mention of chariots in Wyrms footnotes or the various fanzines as part of how Orlanthi fight. No mention of chariots at the Battle of Grizzly Peak or during the Invasion of Sartar in 1602 or during Starbrow's Rebellion. There has been ample opportunity too. As such, as I don't like retconning, I have found a good work around I think.
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On 7/20/2020 at 9:09 AM, EricW said:
Ralzakark ruler of Dorastor is or was a mask of Gbaji, he is someone who studied under Nysalor and learned much of his magic, and is also one of Glorantha's most accomplished heroquesters.
What prevents Ralzakark from reconstructing Nysalor/Gbaji in full? Why is his Dorastor still just a shadow of the First Age? With Arkat broken and not seen since the Second Age, and with Arkat's victory further weakened by Sedenya tampering somehow with the Gbaji myth, what prevents Ralzakark from completing the job and creating a new City of Miracles, restoring Dorastor to its former "glory"?
That is easy. The thing holding Ralzakark back is his character. He simply doesn't want to do that. Exhibit A: The Monster Empire.
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16 hours ago, M Helsdon said:
RQ3 Monster Coliseum had chariot rules.
That is for gladiatorial combat a la ancient Roman sporting use of chariots, not bronze age military chariot deployment. I can't think of a single RQ scenario which featured a chariot or chariot warfare; not even as a novelty.
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On 5/3/2023 at 1:41 AM, Jeff said:
Chariots of course are particularly useful in Glorantha because they can be used as mobile platforms for spell casting. One can cast active spells, augment with things like Meditate, and can use their melee or missile skills at full effect regardless of the charioteer's skill. This gives chariots a role they did not have in the real world - as mobile spell platforms for Rune levels.
In fact chariots are so important to the Orlanthi in general that they have a charioteer cult! And not some toss-away subcult name, but one of the deities that have been a part of Glorantha since the 1970s.
Well I could point out some salient points, such as the lack of chariot illustrations in White Bear Red Moon military units, but I won't. I happen to love the idea of making RQG more Bronze Age, and nothing says that more than chariots. When I first read about Volsaxi chariots, I immediately wrote a scenario involving the retrieval of such an ancient chariot, and a quest to drive it to the White Bull rebels in Prax for safe keeping.
I would point out though that RQ2 and RQ3 and HQ had no chariot rules. They are purely from RQG, and I like them a lot. Retrofitting them into the lore however has been an issue. The way I get around this issue is that Argrath sees the utility of chariots among the Volsaxi forces and realizes their value for his Sartar Magical Union, and reintroduces what was a technology that largely died in ages prior, perhaps wiped out by the God Learners or the True Golden Horde. Rather than pretend chariots have always been there, I chose instead to link them to the Hero Wars as a reintroduction. This way we don't abandon the lore and history that went before, but instead celebrate the chariot rules as something exciting and new on the battlefield.
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9 hours ago, Jeff said:
I am treating those books flippantly because I was involved in creating them. I know what they are intended to be - notes, works in progress, etc.
Then you should treat Greg and your work with more respect. These notes are actually quite detailed and provide plenty of useful info. When the time comes to start producing Hero Quests for RQG the Stafford Library will absolutely invaluable. Even a loose collection of notes are better than no notes.
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On 5/1/2023 at 10:31 PM, Jeff said:
The Heortling Mythology book was never intended to be canon. It just started from a desire that Greg had to have all the stories that appeared in various books in one place. He then added a bunch of additional stories, I added some more. It was a rough draft and notebook for what would eventually become Belintar's book (which ultimately formed the basis of the Cults series). I proposed that we publish the book as a way of getting some revenue; Greg was ambivalent at best (just as he was about Arcane Lore) but went along with it. n retrospect, Greg's ambivalence was well warranted.
Given that it is the best source material we have on a lot of lore, I think we should stop treating the Stafford Library so flippantly. It isn't as if Greg is around to do it better anymore, so we need to treat it as the obviously invaluable resource that these books so clearly are. That being said, if Chaosium ever produced the Stafford Library in printed form again, I would certainly purchase them.
On 5/1/2023 at 10:31 PM, Jeff said:Huh? Where the heck does this even come from? The Volsaxi have been well described in the Guide and other publications.
It is lore that the Volsaxi are the last Orlanthi to be chariot users. I think that came out in a TORM article by Greg in the 1990s, or it was in one of the many Jonstown Compendium footnotes somewhere from back in the day. The Volsaxi tribe are one of the last peoples in Genertela to use chariots.
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All the Elder Races are potentially forces to reckon with if they unite. I think the Mostali in particular are terrifying in their potential.
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On 4/28/2023 at 10:47 PM, Jeff said:
Are you absolutely determined to work all those old HW subcults into canonical Glorantha?
They are all in The Stafford Library, and if that isn't canon then it damn well should be. And yes, I think they should all be included as they are part of the lore. I take exception to the notion that these are old "HW" subcults, as I never played HW because it was a terrible system. My thoughts on the matter are quite public.
On 4/28/2023 at 10:47 PM, Jeff said:Finovan was an ancient hero or demigod who gave his name to the Finovan Hills in Volsaxiland aka Hendrikar. He might be the subject of a local spirit cult in Volsaxiland (or might not), but is not of wider importance.
That has to be incorrect, as the Volsaxi are a super rare Orlanthi chariot people, while Finovan is a rider/raider god who rides a horse rather than driving a chariot as far as the literature tells us.
More importantly I can see broad appeal in a deity who is able to enhance a clan's ability to steal cattle, which is a major source of wealth. The notion that Finovan is so narrowly worshipped and in the wrong place (Chariot heavy Volsaxiland) doesn't seem very credible to me. Finovan is too broadly valuable to every Orlanthi clan to be as limited in adoption as you suggest.
More importantly, many if not all Tribal and Clan rings will include a Thunder Brother seat. It is part of the lore, and every clan or tribe of any size will incorporate the cult of at least one Thunder Brother, and while most may choose Elmal or Vinga, not all will or should.
Diversity and respect for the deeper Lore will in no way diminish Glorantha, but will instead make it stronger.
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On 4/26/2023 at 2:58 AM, Jeff said:
The best horsemanship in Sartar is associated with the Yelmalio cult, the Runegate clans, and the Pol-Joni.
What about the cult of Finovan? He rides upon Rolling Thunder, a magnificent stolen horse. As the pre-eminent rustling and raiding deity, why doesn't he get a mention? Rustling cattle is very hard on foot. Elmal may raise the horses, but Finovan steals them and rides them. If Elmal or Yelmalio were a better rider, Finovan wouldn't raid successfully.
Eurmal structure?
in Glorantha
Posted · Edited by Darius West
Interesting ideas Sten.
In RQ3 Trickster effectively only had acolytes imsmc.
In the GOG Preview, there are trickster initiates and Priests. We can assume the priests do the initiating. In terms of initiation, I generally play that the Priest makes a demand that their would-be supplicant must fulfil in return for the status. The would-be initiate is perfectly within their rights to twist the wording of the demand. If they succeed, the initiator tells them where the nearest Trickster shrine is and they must go there and pray before the following Sacred Time arrives, gaining their first RP. After that they lose their 1POW, gain 1RP and are now an initiate of Trickster.
Good point Sten. IMO any Lightbringer who has Trickster as an associated cult e.g. Orlanth, Lhankor Mhy and Issaries will all have an Eurmal shrine that provides the spell that is given to them. While tempting for secret tricksters to pray there, they run great risk of discovery, should they do so.
The Preview Edition write-up says Trickster Temples are rare. Something of an understatement for a cult that also promotes the Hate Authority passion imo. Travelling unlocks new spells from hidden shrines.
Fool's motley for public tricksters is a good idea. This is likely what Trickster Priests look like.
While this separation between public and secret tricksters is pretty much the only way they can function, the GoG Preview doesn't mention the issue, more's the pity.