Nevermet

6 minutes ago, Erol of Backford said:

Is there a best source to look at the Vadeli, likely I'll look at the GtG, all the old zines, etc. fandom and the well of daliath... assuming the taste of the Vadeli is out there in print?

The best sources aren't great...

I'd argue Revealed Mythologies is probably the best? Maybe the Guide, esp V.2?

They're a boogeyman that's 2 steps off camera.

On 7/9/2023 at 2:45 AM, JRE said:

For pure adventure seed reasons, I would have a delegation of Vadeli in Fay Jee buying slaves  and shipping them to places unknown. Good background evil if you need something bad to happen. It would also mean slave caravans from Yellowstone to Fay Jee, or Esrolians going to Fay Jee to ransom family from the Vadeli, or even hire someone to negotiate with the Solanthi to ransom a captive. I can easily see such a Brown Vadeli go-between, specialized in finding missing captives...

 

It also works well because the Trader Princes are failing, and Fay Jee desperately wants to replace Handra as the primary Manirian port.  That sort of desperation is the sort of thing the Vadeli can smell.

No, but I'm interested.

I had the idea of starting a game as Manirian survivors of Pennel Ford, who need to figure out how to get back without being captured or killed.

21 minutes ago, Eff said:

One answer is because they're Chaotic and Chaotic entities defy analysis. But that answer sucks, so having invoked it, I hereby dismiss it

I'm still digesting your answer, but I just want to say I grinned WIDELY at this, as I agree with your standards of what makes a good argument.

36 minutes ago, metcalph said:

I would have expected Ramalia to figure far more significantly in the Manirian Hero Wars.  The Players Book: Genertela described them as one of the two "Enemy Kingdoms" (the other was the Kingdom of War).

Same, but it just seems... inert?

Putting its overt evil aside, it is an isolationist kingdom, with very few canonical connections to anything in the 3rd Age.  From what I can tell, the noteworthy things are...

1. It is eeeevil: post-hrestol sorcerors that tap, commoners that worship Mralot and a human version of ZZ.  Older pubs suggest the elite are Chaotic
2. It has a mysterious pact with Tarinwood
3. Its peasants are former Hsunchen
4. It hates and fears the sea
5. The Holy Country claimed to own its coasts for a few years, but didn't seem to act off that claim before their fleets were destroyed by Kralorela
6. It probably has some Godlearner secrets.
7. A massive predawn battle between "Veranich and Polarn" occurred in the Mralot Hills.
8. It has iron mines

I use the word "inert" because while some of those of those are interesting, nothing really is putting Ramalia "in motion" in a way that makes it interact with anyone or anything beyond maybe Tarinwood.  It also is never described as a serious threat to any polities beyond its borders.  The Kingdom of War is most definitely described as a threat, and very much in motion

So, what puts Ramalia in motion?

Perhaps Paruzal's successor decides to wage war on Khorst & Handra?  This is plausible.

Perhaps the Chaos Monster Arkat from Ralios allies with them?  Possible

New Wyrmish creates a massive Dino-Army?  Funny, but... *shrug?*

We know what the Elves are up to, and we kinda know what happens to the Trader Princes / Manirian Tribes.  But that's not everyone in Maniria.  So...

What are the Manirian Populations "under-discussed" in the Hero Wars?

• Caratan / Aulorings
  • Possibly crushed by reforestation.  possibly have godlearner secrets that will be useful for something or someone.  
• Handra
  • Port City with an exploding population and prophecies that are as Important(tm) as they are undefined.  Its location makes it somewhat insulated from the Reforestation, the 5 arkats, Sehsnela, and Argrath.  It will grow in importance, or at least refugees.
• Kaxtorplose
  • There is a holy temple-city that resisted Palangio, fought the Lopers, survived Slontos turning.  It is associated with Arkat and the Godlearners.  ...I'm sure nothing happens there in the next century at all. 🤣
• Khorst & Smelch
  • Isolated ports = their experience of the Hero Wars will be ocean-based
• Mournsea Islands
  • A mix of Godlearner ruins and blue moon worshippers.  this has to connect to something.
• Ramalia
  • Big question: Will the Reforestation retake Valekos or not?
  • Eventually, Demonic sorcerers vs. wereboars!
• Western Allies
  • Mountainous terrain may slow down Reforestation.  Possible annexation by Caladraland?

Big Question: How do the Hero Wars Come to Maniria?

Manirian Hero Wars

• The New Seed / Reforestation
  • It starts in Arstola, but where does it spread?
  • What is the timeline?
    • (1637: Reforestation comes to Zamolkil in Pamaltela)
  • [Summary of previous threads: Maniria is cut in half by magical forest.  Eastern Maniria, the lands of the Ditali and the Western Allies (Volcano-worshippers politically independent of Caladraland) will deal with the forest, as will Esrolia.  Chance of Oakfed being introduced with extreme results] 
• Lion King's Last Roar
  • What is the fallout of Pennel Ford and the death of Greymane and his sons?
    • [Summary of Previous threads: massive power vacuum among the Ditali and Solanthi.  Nimistori and Bastis not as hurt, as they are not as related to Geymane's wars.  Esrolian retribution is mobilized.  Overland trade is further disrupted, creating a short-term benefit to Handra.]

"Argrath vs Red Moon" Hero Wars

• The Dragonrise
  • How do the Dragonewts of Ryzel react to the Dragonrise?
• Sartar Rises
  • How does Argrath's apathy toward Manirira effect relations?
    • [Short answer: Argrath doesn't care about Esrolia's western border, but Esrolia will.  The question is how much will Esrolia be able to make autonomous decision making vs get sucked into Argrath's schemes focusing on the Moon.]
       

"Western" Hero Wars

• The Five Arkats
  • Which Arkats are interested in Maniria, and why?
    • [Short answer 1: If any of the Arkats is trying to embody the Liberator, they may go to Kaxtorplose to get that title "validated.]
    • [Short answer 2: Pralori mercenary cavalry will be used by somebody.]
• Seshnela
  • Does the One King of the West care about the remnants of Slontos?
  • [Short Answer: Probably not?]
• Quest for the Red Sword
  • Does the quest pass through Maniria at all?
    • [No Idea]
  • Gebel brings back the Lopers as part of the quest for the Rest Sword of Tolat.  Do these new Zaranistangi care about Maniria?
    • [No Idea, but I feel it is thematically correct to have the Lopers come back to Maniria in some way.]
       

"Ocean-related" Hero Wars & HW Elements

• Harrek & The Wolf Pirates
  • How much do they raid Handra & Fay Jee, and when?
  • [Short answer: I need to double check the dates in Blood over Gold and see if they make sense with what's in the Guide.  This would be the starting point, but it needs a lot of work]
• How does the rising of the Boat Planet change things?
  • [No Idea yet]
• The flood
  • What is the timeline?
  • Elements
    • Mostali rising of Tharkarn & Somalze
      • ?
    • Trilini & Eat Big
  • [No idea]
• The Weartagi
  • Do the Waertagi care about anything in Maniria?
  • [No idea]
• Vadeli
  • How much of a Vadeli presence is there in Maniria?
  • [No idea, but seafaring trade will inevitably bring a FEW Vadeli to Handra & Fay Jee]

I'm continuing to assemble my data on Maniria through published work.  One of the ways I'm doing this (I have 3 or 4 approaches I guess?) is I start with a question, which then explodes into a bunch of more specific questions about Glorantha as it exists in canon and publication.  I'm not interested in slavish devotion to canon, but I like to know when I'm diverging.  Also, more importantly, my imagination works best when it has extant information to build off of & use as parameters.

I'm starting a new Onenote Section based on the question, "How do the Hero Wars come to Maniria?" From there, I started going through the Guide and the Sourcebook reading up for the Hero Wars as they manifest in both Maniria and also in Maniria-relevant regions.  In other words, for these purposes I'm interested in the Hero Wars of the Holy Country to the extent they influence Maniria, but I'm not interested in regions that remain unrelated to Maniria (example: Northern Pent).

I don't have answers to all these questions, and I'm not even sure which can be answered with published material or not, but I thought they were worth trying to map out to an extent.  I've touched on some of this, especially the Reforestation, in other threads.  But Glorantha is at its best when things weave together, and the Manirian Hero Wars are more than just "Suddenly Trees".

On 11/25/2022 at 1:28 AM, M Helsdon said:

It's because of game mechanics, I believe. The Trade Rune still exists in Glorantha but isn't a Rune player characters can 'own'.

Yeah, this is a really important thing to remember: There are many more runes than the ones that are mechanically relevant.  Like, IMG, Lodril's heat rune is still a thing, etc

On 11/15/2022 at 3:24 AM, AlexS said:

Thanks @Nevermet – and yes, one campaign storyline is a PC from Dizbos whose home village was sacked in Greymane’s Great Raid mixing revenge with politics when Samastina’s spy mistress sends the party on a Manirian mission.

Oh, that sounds fun.

Yeah, the routing of Greymane's army combined with his death and the death of his 2 sons will create massive destabilization in eastern and central Maniria, and as such, there are a million opportunities for campaigns.  A plot going into Maniria for vengeance is perfect.  On the Manirian side, a campaign about a small band of survivors trying to get home has great potential.

I'll think about the rest of your post later and try to respond tonight 🙂

We're basically agreeing, I think: Different cultures will know the same god in different ways, keeping different versions of the same myth, or different myths entirely.  Going 1 step further, exactly what actions are assembled to make 1 god vs multiple gods (Orlanth, Umath, Humakt, etc) can also be a bit fuzzy.  The fact that, according to the Guide, Theyalan missionaries "proved" that Humat was Orlanth to the Ralians doesn't really simplify things.

That's just one of those texts I just keep reading over and over.

It's in the Indigo Mountains near Dagori Inkarth

Yeah, Lightbringer /Theyalan mythology probably characterized Orlanth in a different way than... I dunno... Ralian mythology characterized Humat in the 1st Age, even though (IIRC) they're the same deity.

Doing a quick search of my PDFs, I find this in Heortling Mythology

Quote

The Darkness was a time of plenty for the Trolls; they wandered the surface world at will no longer fearing the harmful sun. The hungry eaters of the Dark Tribe of Boztakang often attacked the Survivors, stealing cattle, eating children, and killing hunters.

Among the Survivors there were those known as the Jars Anstaggi “People of the Shadows.” The most renown was Kestang the descendent of Betimagor, the Champion of Drastch, named after the great battle at the dark Drastch Mountain, where the Thunder Brothers fought against the Uz, and everyone got to keep their shadows.

Kestang showed the Vulture Campers how to fight the trolls just as his ancestor had. He could see in the dark and had magics to set trolls aflame. He was a shadow fighter, even going into the Palace of Darkness with his band of Betimagor Uzbane warriors. He wrought great damage, but was eventually trapped and killed by Zonkozor and the forces of Deloradella.

I apologize for the language, but I remember someone calling Orlanth "The God of Fucking Around and Finding Out", which I feel is related to this.

It would be interesting which versions of Orlanthi myth are more interested in his penitence.  I get the feeling that 3rd Age Heortling / Sartarite Orlanthi appreciate the entire arc of his history, which means its included but not necessarily emphasized.  Unsure about some of the other Orlanthi populations

I agree with Bill, but I'd also say the average Sartarite probably can't talk about it in extreme detail.  I suspect they can say that it was the center of reality before the Darkness, and a few other lines from various religious ceremonies, but that they have a much deeper understanding of things like "Who is Orlanth and what did he do?"

As an analogy, most American Christians have heard of the Garden of Eden, but I suspect most don't know the names of the rivers in it off the top of their head.

As places one would end up depending on why they headed west from Esrolia... there's a bunch of different ideas there.  But yeah, assuming PCs are getting into Greymane / Trader Prince drama, your list of 4 is probably a good 4.

8 hours ago, AlexS said:

Hope that is useful – happy to share the draft list of Cultural Traditions if that would help. We have over 70 possible Cultural Traditions on our list so far (!) but because we are focusing on Dragon Pass, Prax and Kethaela we only have four Manirian ones (Solanthi, Ditali, Haranding and Trader Prince), as those seemed most relevant to the people adventurers are likely to meet in Esrolia without heading further West.

By my count there are 9 Manirian tribes, 15 Trader Prince cities/forts/temples, 3 New Coast cultures, 4 "Slontan Survivor" cultures, and 3 Hsunchen. And then there's the "buffer states" of Kithma, Solung etc.

That means at least 34 cultural traditions.  More, actually, because I would argue that just as you could have a "darkness clan" in Sartar, there are multiple tradition among the Manirians.  IMG, Haranding are Manirian Boar Clans, and there are also Manirian Lion Clans, and several others.

As you can probably see, I was thinking about dealing with this eventually by defining it on a clan level.  So, if there was a hypothetical PC who was Nimistori, the next question is whether they come from Jaraz, Jubal, Selgos, a Lion Clan, an Elk Clan, a Deer Clan, etc.

As you can also probably see, I'm more comfortable with HQG chargen than RQG chargen, but I'm thinking things.

Sorry... I'm babbling.  The main issue, though, is that I think everyone here fully agrees that there is a large amount of diversity in Manirira (and any other region in Glorantha, honestly), and there's a need to figure out an effective way to mechanically represent that.   I thought I had a point about that issue when I started this post, but I think I was wrong LOL

4 hours ago, soltakss said:

I used the cover illustration from Holiday Dorastor: Temple of Heads as my background in our Arthurian game, just because I thought it was cool.

It is cool

Is it wrong that I want them as zoom backgrounds?

Like, I want to go to Department Meetings from Within the Godswar

I... think that makes sense?

Put another way, the homelands of Maniria are

1. Forested hills and mountains, dotted by walled trading posts that people call cities
2. Post-apocalyptic folk horror
3. ANIMAL PEOPLE! (specifically, were-elk, were-boar, & were-goat)
4. Post-apocalyptic shoreline full of ruins and Sleestaks
5. Swamps with Emmet Otter & Kermit the frog
6. Swamps with dinosaurs

Here's a tentative new list of Homelands:

#1: Manirian (total population: 611,000)

• Interior of Maniria, defined by forests, North-South Rivers, and the failing rule of the Trader Princes
• Regions:
  • Bastis
    • TP Cities: Highwater, Yolanda
  • Ditali / Dokali / Swarz
    • TP Cities: Bath, Gorphing, Saltcastle, Staton, Sweet Valley
    • Non-TP Cities: Bluewater, Swarz
  • Howler Volcano
  • Legrosi
    • TP City: Tallcastle
  • Nimistori
    • TP Cities: Jaraz, Selgos, Jubal
  • Pelushi Volcano
  • Solanthi
    • TP Cities: Ferry, Fort Digger, Temple of Peace, Yellowstone
    • Non-TP Cities: Donali

#2: Ramalia: (population: 180,000)

• Isolated southwestern Maniria, coastlines uninhabited.  Lots of ruins and scars of the Sundering.  This was a hinterland of the archducky, not Kotorland like most of the Manirian homeland.
• Regions
  • Mraloti Hills (ex-Hsunchen)
  • Valekos (“Civilized” but isolated)

#3: Hsunchen (not a region, population: over 55,000)

• Not a geographic location
  • Caroni
  • Mraloti
  • Pralorela

#4: Wenelia (population: 50,000)

• The New Coast and Poison Shore, living next to an Ocean that hates you. The oceans makes it distinct from the interior homeland.
• Regions
  • Fay Jee (ruled by a Trader Prince)
  • Kaxtorplose
  • Peelo & the Maldros

#5: New Fens (population: 30,000)

• Geography: Marshes that define much of the Noshain River system.  Similar to the Everglades in Florida.  Marshes make it distinctive to the forested Manirian homeland.
• Regions
  • Handra (Ralian / Slontan)
  • Caratan / Aulorings (Quasi-isolationist, religiously unique)

#6: Khorst (Population: 22,000)

• Marsh and coastal culture west of Ramalia and south of Tarinwood.  It is defined by the ocean, distinguishing it from the Ramalian interior
• Regions
  • Alatan
  • Khorst
  • Trachodon Marsh

Hi! Thanks for the replies.  A few comments:

Regarding the Mraloti, I took the phrase, "These heavily-forested hills are inhabited by the degenerate descendants of Mraloti Boar Hsunchen" to mean the primary inhabitants of the Mralot Hills of Ramalia are no longer Hsunchen.  There are Mraloti all around Maniria and Ramalia, but the way I was currently thinking is something along the lines of this over-generalization: "Degenerate Mraloti" is just another name for Ramalian Brown-Caste Dronars.  But maybe I should rethink this.  Also, I plan on buying Children of Hykim next paycheck.

Also, I agree I have a lot, and possibly too many, homelands.  the core book has 6, and I'd like to get it down to about that.  But as many of you have acknowledged, Maniria is a messy place.  I really appreciate Brian reminding me about the function, mechanically, of homelands.  As such, I collapsed the Trader Princes back into the Manirians.  It's all 1 homeland, though the cultural divide between "The Land and the Road" is rather large and probably coming to a head.  I also folded the Volcanics into Maniria, as they probably have a similar lifestyle.  The two big differences are that they are religiously affiliated with Caladraland, and they have no cities.  I am sure there are some Volcano-worshipping clands that are politically affiliated with Saltcastle and Bath.

This means that about 60% of Maniria's population belongs to 1 homeland, which I feel is justifiable given how things are described in the Guide.