Nevermet

19 hours ago, Tindalos said:

I get the feeling that the Rokari vision of Seshnegi society is still a "work in progress." They're still having problems of what to do with the lower and middle classes (Guide to Glorantha page 413), who they've been unable to exactly turn into proper castes (the wealthier townsfolk of the trader and crafter subcastes mentioned on page 51 are probably an example of the middle class, and likely look down on lower class workers combined into the Worker Caste)

It wouldn't surprise me if the Rokari Watcher's response would be "yes it's bad, but at the moment we're still rooting out major heresies and convincing showing everyone we've got the Right version of Malkionism. Just look the other way until we've got everything else sorted out, and then we'll get to work on restoring the Talars to their proper place and ending their corruptive ancestor worship." (But in private of course)

I agree with all of this.

One of my big questions for Rokarism is given what they want to do and be, why don't they just become Brithini?  I think they answer is that's more or less what they want, but the Brithini aren't about converts.  So, IMG Rokarism's ideal goal is to start with "normal", mortal humans and the surviving insights of the Abiding Book after Rokar "sharpened" it, and figure out how to bend that toward the eternal stability and immortality of the Brithini.

43 minutes ago, metcalph said:

Yes, they did.  We even have a name for one of them, Rodard of Neleswal (Guide p352).  They were part of the official structure but they existed, were tolerated and even used from time to time.  Basically they were the Bad Batches, Suicide Squads and Dirty Dozens for the God Learners.  

ok, that makes sense

thank you.

This may be a dumb question, but did the Middle Sea Empire have Men-of-All?

3 hours ago, Jeff said:

We aren't talking about hypothetical Pelorian campaigns (I suspect the Lunar Heartland campaign arc is VERY different from what your described). But in running a Western game, say in Seshnela, we have:

1. A background ideology that is pushed by the zzaburi that is rational to the point of amoral, and which is deeply suspicious of Hrestoli chivalry (along with everything else associated with Hrestol). There are rules, and they are based on reason - you can manipulate them and that's just what there is. Call it cold-eyed modern Western rationalism.

2. An ingrained sympathy for Hrestoli chivalry among most of the other castes. The strong have a duty to the weak and to fair play that trumps all other rules. Call it Pre-Raphaelite Romanticism.  

3. An ambitious and ruthless king who is supported by the zzaburi but needs the chivalrous warriors to carry out his conquests. Call him the anti-Pendragon, a modern Machiavellian.

Meanwhile we have all sorts of remnants of a pre-rational age - the ruins of Seshna Likita, the Beastfolk, the Elder Races, the Beast Brotherhoods, and most dangerous of all, the secretive Arkati who are the Shadow to Reason's Light. Plus we have the return of the original men - think immortal Melniboneans or Vadagh, the Flying Dutchman, and demigod Luathans. There's a lot going on there.

This is all helpful to me, even in Manira 😉

9 minutes ago, Nick Brooke said:

Join the club. But don’t ever let on!

I keep forgetting that!

Also, I'm babbling over my paygrade.  Please be gentle when you point out I have no clue what I'm talking about, but please nevertheless point it out 🙂

5 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Okay, so basically, the entry-level of Western adventures is something more akin to knight-errant adventures, ronin and wuxia stories? Wandering warriors relying on their own moral compass to get things done. 

There is, however, a meta-structure, with them being sent around on missions by their superiors (talars, Zzaburi), so not entirely wandering by their own rudder. 

Presumably, there are going to be small-scale events that take PCs from being minor "problem-solvers" of their liege lord and/or sorcerer superior and turns it into a more profound (and perhaps self-driven) quest for deeper meaning and secrets.

From the comments above, this will, somehow, coalesce into revelations and decision that has the potential to upend the social order. 

Is this more on the ball, or have I still completely missed the point?

That feels right to me, though I'm not sure it is truly distinctive to me, as I can easily imagine a lot of Pelorian and Kathaelan adventurers whose activities can be summaries as Wandering warriors relying on their own moral compass to get things done while being sent around on missions by their superiors.

So, I'm a bit lost.  

At lower levels, I'd imagine the big differences are a matter of context (the political landscape of Location A vs. Location B).  At higher levels... I think the "anticipated" central Genertelan Hero Warrior is asked the question, "What version of Your God will you become to gain the power you want?  How will becoming your god change how you use power?"

I'm fuzzy what the top tier Hero Warriors of the West will be asked.

What I'm getting out of this thread as of late is that while the underlying themes of the West have remained pretty consistent for 30+ years*; the application of those themes to create a setting have often been left vague compared to the Holy Country / Dara Happa axis, and the West has been hit hard by retconning forces as Glorantha became more "consistently bronze age" (I'm putting those in quotes because it's the best phrase I can come up with but it isn't perfect).

I got into Glorantha 15-20 years ago with the 1st Edition of HeroQuest, which I am increasingly aware has permanently influenced the way I think about the game world**.  For this conversation, it meant I was introduced to the Rokari as "default" Malkionism, and it was an extremely literate society where magic came from ritual ceremonialists, liturgists, and orderlies.  As HQ was revised, both in terms of setting & mechanics, that image of the west fell by the wayside.  

I don't have as much of a point as I would like to this post, but like Nick above, I feel that this discussion is better served by acknowledging the revisions that have happened to the West.

* Different Gloranthan Hero Wars have different "anticipated heroes."  The anticipated heroes of Dragon Pass are embodiments of gods - illuminated devotees.  The anticipated heroes of Seshnela, Safelster, & Loskalm are human reformers of society, aided by Wizards with their secrets.  The point is not to be Hrestol reborn, but to try to be or identify who should be the next great prophet, and to do that through action rather than study.

** This is a long point worthy of its own thread, but in short, IMHO, having Heroquest 1 be my first Glorantha game meant that (1) I assumed a much higher degree of cultural homogeneity than people before me ("It's either a theistic culture, an animist culture, or a wizardly culture"), and I started with the assumption that Glorantha was full of various, loosely coupled Hero Wars, rather than Dragon Pass being the center of gravity.  I'm not claiming anyone who got into Heroquest in 2004 was guarantee to get this, but that was my experience.

3 hours ago, Jeff said:

My only quibble is that outside of Ramalia, there isn't that much Malkionism in Maniria. Or more precisely there are only talars and a few zzaburi. Like the Vadagh, our civilised Trader Princes are surrounded by Orlanthi Mabden. 

I completely agree.  Maniria on the whole is influenced by western culture, but not truly a western culture. The only Malkioni cultures are Ramalia, and Kaxtorplose.  I genuinely have no idea what Handra qualifies as these days, and the Aulorings of Caratan are decidedly ex-Godlearner. All of this is to say that Maniria gets "partial credit" on how "western" it is.  Safelster, Seshnela, and eastern Fronela all score much higher.

However, I suspect Maniria will experience a the net pull toward Sheshnela and the Five Arkats than toward Dragon Pass, Argrath, & the Lunars (the Ditali may get sucked into Esrolian issues).  Between the Devastation of the Vent and (especially) the sinking of Slontos, Maniria is very haunted by the Godlearners, both literally ("Hey, why doesn't anyone want to explore Lukae!?!"), and culturally.  Even if most extant Manirian populations are modern day Entruli, the answer of what comes after the Godlearners is central to Maniria.  The hegemony of the Trader Princes was one possible answer*, but that's failing now, as are Greymane's dreams.  The Reforestation is coming, which means either Maniria is going to be entering a paleolithic New Green Age, or something is going to stop it.  I admit this is me putting my thumbs on the scales a bit, but if something stops the Reforestation, I suspect it to be more "western" than Holy Country / Sartar.

* I don't think it's the one Castelein The Traveller wanted, but that's a tangent-and-a-half for another thread.

I've been thinking about the question of what makes the West interesting to me for most of the day.

An Age ago, the Malkioni were absolutely sure they had "cracked the code," and that they would be able to re-engineer Glorantha by dircetly controlling the basic forces of reality.  They knew The Truth, and that truth gave them universal power, ambition, and hope.  They were quite sure the world would be better once they healed it.  They were never about a single location (The Godlearners were always defined by their multiple locations of power).  Instead, no matter where you were in Glorantha, the rules were the same.  

And then that ended.  Badly.  Purple giants destroyed Sheshnela.  The Sea destroyed Maniria (again).  Heaven knows what horrors were experienced by the last humans of Jrustela.  And, well, reality was done with all that Zistor nonsense.

And since then, I think it is fair to say that the West has been defined by the question, "What next?"  Obviously, some groups turned away from Malkionism in general.  But Safelster, eastern Fronela, the cities of Maniria, Sheshnela, and even NW Pamaltela... everywhere has reconstruction efforts.  Where exactly did we go wrong?  How do we go back and make it right?  Do we need to make amends to anyone?  What do we need to change?  What do we need to double down on?

The West is haunted, culturally, by the Godlearners, by the fact they almost got it right, and how they lead to utter, inhuman doom for so, so many.

2 minutes ago, Jeff said:

They are quite appropriately called Humanists as they place humans, not gods or spirits, at the centre of their cosmology.

Oh, the definition completely makes sense on that level.  However, the consequence of a humanism that prioritizes abstract reason over lived experiences, leading to misery and social ruin is something I think I can rightly call ironic.  (I'm pretty comfortable saying that about real world history in addition to Glorantha)

4 hours ago, Jeff said:

One might even suppose there is a problem with the very idea of mortal societies placing a greater emphasis upon abstract reason than lived experiences. That has led to the near extinction of the Malkioni on more than one occasion.

This highlights the inaccuracy (irony, perhaps?) of the Malkioni occasionally being called Humanists.

Oh and on the issue of refugees, the New Coast of Maniria will have them both from the West, but also the reforested interior.  Handra, Fay Jee, Kaxtorplose, & Peelo are going to get crowded.

46 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Maybe this is a bit of a quandary - Seshnela could easily be pimped up to cater to teenage boys' wet dreams, sold in a special brown paperback envelope because of the scandalously low necklines around the navel. All together entirely economically viable, if you look at the sales of the HBO Game of Thrones, or how well the Spartacus series sold.

The Rokari way as something to die for to that clientele might be a hard sell, though. "What do you mean - the talars get to cosy up to lots of topless chicks, and the sorcerers may look but never touch?"

The Western novels by Greg are as focused on the men-of-all as is the Pendragon roleplaying game.

Peasants remain something like non-entities - there might be a few roles for worker caste individuals from urban backgrounds, where the fourth caste can aspire to some wealth and influence.

Playing a game of beast-totem infantry samurai serving with the heavy cavalry of the nobles might be problematic, too. But a Horali may end up with more personal magic than a Talar.

 

How to sell this kind of setting to the non-adolescent male clientele, though?

How would a RuneQuest game centered on Seshnegi females look? Female horali bodyguards are available in Martin Helsdon's description, so a martial angle would be covered. Worker caste dress-makers, cooks or perfumers, possibly with criminal connections, might be a go, too. Sorcerous enchantresses can only do their thing in secret, a bit like in Mage, or one would have to play a woman making it into the Rokari orders hiding her sex. This leaves the noble ladies, who don't get to ride around in cataphract armor but do get to look decorative. On the other hand, they may get talar suitors doing their bidding.

Honestly, these sort of issues (Gender, who has what sorts of magic, etc) are at least as important for making the West playable as anything else.

Huh... I ran out of reactions for the day.  I didn't know I could do that.  Sorry if I have been a bit too... enthusiastic.  Anyways, unsurprisingly, my initial thoughts are about how Maniria fits into all this.

Other people, especially Eff, have said everything I can imagine to say about the Reforestation, except 1 thing: I think it breaks Maniria in half. For this thread, western Maniria is (obviously) more interesting, so I'll babble about that. 

In terms related to Western Hero Wars, I can think of 4:

1. Aquatic Antics. If you want Godlearner knowledge, to go Maniria with SCUBA gear.  The Trickster College, Lukae, it's all there... assuming you can get down there and make a deal with the Merfolk. Also, Erenplose is down there still, and that's a massively undefined mystery in Glorantha: a city sunk "by the Sea Gods" within a hundred years of the Dawn, saved by a Kolati, and never visited since Palangio did it about 1,200 years ago.
    
2. Surviving Populations. Ramalia has a Godlearner sorcery library.  The Low Temple of Caratan has a library of documents from Gualal.  Kaxtorplose remembers Arkat better than most.  It's currently undefined who originally built the Great Tower of Fay Jee.
    
3. This is not a convenient place to invade.  Maniria, assuming spaces don't get completely choked by plant life, would be a distant place to flee Seshnela, since land armies need to go around Tarinwood.  Naval invasions are much more difficult.  Also, based on everything in the Guide, one should fear the Pralori.
    
4. You want to talk about Dragons?  The Ryzel Hills have their own Inhuman King.  They marched with Palangio to (re-)take those hills, and have been there ever since.  The Godlearners didn't mess with them (IIRC they even had cautious trade at times).  If someone wants to know more about Western dragons, you'd need to go there, since Dragon's Eye in Ralios has been a bit broken since Alakoring came through.

Regarding Manirian Hero Wars, this will likely be a central place for fights both regarding the New Forest and the Flood.  Magic of Heler will matter here, as will the myths of Severus.  

On 4/28/2021 at 6:33 PM, scott-martin said:

I love the refugee segmentation this opens up as well as the larger role this conflict plays in the larger Hero Wars. Let's start with the second part because it's the central impulse here. I am not a fan of the Rokarist system for simple reasons: they're mean, they're puritanical and they're in power. Any of these elements can contribute to Gloranthan Fun but the combination condemns about 2 million fictional characters to a life of oppression, bullying and naked fear . . . without the usual compensations like religious ecstasy or intricate local lore that make these conditions more tolerable elsewhere on the lozenge. They're a puritanical sect. They spend their effort eradicating many of the factors that differentiate Glorantha from the late modern state of alienation and anomie.

Even this is fine from a purely abstract intellectual perspective but it gets tedious in sustained play. What are we doing this week? We're getting oppressed again. When that gets boring, maybe we try being the bullies for awhile, which is rarely either a good look or emotionally sustainable for long-term exploration of Glorantha. Or we can join the resistance and guarantee at least a few years of really hard futility before the canonical timeline gives us any relief or hope at all. (See: getting oppressed.) The bullies are in power. Return to scene one, a mailed saboton smearing a butterfly for what feels like forever.

Now there are solutions. We can look behind the official narrative for a more expansive and "authentic" experience more compatible with the Gloranthan mainstream. We can choose to engineer redemptive change in play, ensuring that within this fiction right won't always lose and wrong won't always win. We can focus on the relatively sympathetic characters, rooting for them to live productive and rewarding lives. And when all else fails, we can take refuge in the catharsis of tragedy without hope of liberation or transcendence, which is not what we see in the Dragon Pass Hero Wars materials. Dooming part of the world to perpetual gloom is one thing. Building materials in the hope that people will then play out that grim dark narrative is quixotic publishing at best -- we already have Warhammer and real life for that.

So that's my moralizing speech. We're gamers. This is the world we build together over time. The world Greg discovered is not Disneyland but "life is not slavery" either. If the Rokarists don't see the error of their ways in play and fast, what's it all for? Life's too short to have the priest dictate what your character can eat for lunch. And so if we can't redeem the Rokarists for years to come in subjective game time, we can at least salvage as much of the sympathetic stuff as we can and get it away from Rokarist territory. I think this impulse drives the refugee narrative. When MGF leads, setting logic bends to accommodate.

That's literally where the fun part comes in. People want the relatively sympathetic stuff in a setting where it comes out in play. Who makes the journey from the West? Sorcerers from this part of the world are either orthodox ("are we the baddies?"), dead or in exile. Going from the old RQ3 occupation tables, there were once maybe 30,000 trained sorcerers in the League and conservatively 10,000 of them were ever any good (rule of 1% magic people). Luckily only a couple hundred are invited to Theoblanc's little fatal soiree so the rest can either die in the war or scatter. We'd want to play it out on five-mile hexes a few thousand times to get the survival numbers.

Talars in Seshnela are an interesting phenomenon BTB, with the really old families who can trace their roots back to the island being scarce to the point of being completely hypothetical. Maybe they're another 1% of the overall population so a base of 10,000 in the League before attrition sets in. From a skills perspective these are mostly jocks with fancy job titles so would make great mercenaries if they land in settled areas or warlords if they don't. (Alatan just got interesting.) Standard horals add 5X to that base.

I don't know what the mortality rate is in the Quinpolic Wars . . . the bully factor makes me think it's pretty high but Guilmarn needs fresh crusaders to make a credible play for Ralios. Maybe say that enough of these two castes switch to replace people he loses and "half" of the rest die. Horrific by Bronze Age Standards, sure. But one side has a significant sorcerous disadvantage (many of the best mages are dead) and this is a Convert Or Die scenario. Most convert rather than die. The weirder you are (hrestol etc.) the less eager you are to convert. Hit the road.

This rough math opens up maybe 12,000 deserters but actual inputs will yield different conclusions. How many die on the way out, boats torpedoed or otherwise running into complications? How many do the Wolf Pirates need in 1623-4 to make their 1625 starting numbers? How many head north to taunt Laurel & Hardy from what looks like the safe harbor of Safelster, only to get caught up in that phase? How many fan out into pagan Ralios? The rest are available for the Manirian exodus.

I would argue that we've just talked about the last meaningful survivors of heterodox high-caste Tanisorian civilization, including all of the warrior women and female sorcerers. But every Umberto Eco fan knows farmers can be heretics too. Even if the zzaburs dictate the spirituality of most (a big if), at a glance at least 6% of the dronar population is going to be initiated to some pagan god or Master, a secret caste mobilist (#occupypasos) or otherwise not the kind of person who welcomes a chat with the Rokarist inquisitors. Again, this includes nearly all of the interesting women. Witches. Shapeshifters. Heretics. 

Across roughly a million people in the pre-crusade League this might be another 55,000 people who are already unhappy with the Rokar status quo (otherwise they wouldn't seek these forest compensations) and are now highly motivated to get the hell out. A stunning 10% of the Seshnegite population in RQ3 had the "sailor" occupation. These people probably lead the exodus and while a shocking number die early on,  they're probably overrepresented in the 1625+ diaspora.

The rest scatter by land as though you were watching the great houses of Sartar scurry after the fall of Boldhome. Those who go north get pulled into that war one way or another out of sight from Dragon Pass. Those who accept the southern passage are a big but probably sad question mark. Those who survive the journey to the east are the ones we meet, each telling a tale of woe and dreaming about vengeance before the end of the world.

This is a great - and I mean this in the best way - rant.
The short version is I'm also concerned about how playable the West is, and you have a clear concern about that.  Unfortunately, I've been a bit myopic in my attention, so I'm rather useless for some of the setting issues around.

1 hour ago, Frp said:

My biggest problem running a Malkioni RQG game would be not knowing the myths well enough to run a heroquest. In the murder hobo days not knowing how to run a heroquest was fine. The only one my Malkioni  went on involved being thrown down a bottomless pit when he smirked while a Death Lord was lectured by his mother. 

Yeah, a loooot would need to be made up, which... if I was in the right mood, would be a ton of fun.  In the wrong mood, it'd be agony

Just now, scott-martin said:

Love it. If I had a professional interest in experimental talar investiture techniques I'd almost think there's something busted in their formula. Works OK at first but glitches like this accumulate over time. 

The West has always had a pathological desire for purity, to the point of inventing a rune for it that never existed.  IMHO / IMG, a central problem with Talar investiture would be the fact that is almost assuredly far too dismissive of deities and spirits.  Something central Genertela is very good at proving is that the most successful societies are multidimensional (on a magical / religious level) that Seshnela / Tanisor actively rejects.

I'm finally reading this thread... and... gah, I wish I was able to be here for its discussion.

On 4/27/2021 at 11:15 AM, Ali the Helering said:

We need more experiments.  Especially with Illuminants.

That can be said about almost anything 😉 

My week has continued being more complicated than I intended... I hope to get back here before the weekend.  

However, I wanted to drop off something about mountains and Law.

mislar

Quote

Old English
Etymology
From mis- +‎ lār.

Pronunciation
IPA(key): /ˈmis.lɑːr/, [ˈmiz.lɑːr]

Noun
mislār f (nominative plural mislāra, mislāre)

1) bad teaching or doctrine
2) an evil suggestion

Declension
Declension of mislar (strong ō-stem)

Descendants
Middle English: mislore
English: mislore

So.....

Ralios and Maniria are separated from one another by the Mountains of Bad Doctrine.  One of the smaller rivers in Maniria is the River of Bad Doctrine.

There is a pass through them that keeps disappearing, and Ethilrist is the last person to use it.

Its known occupants include Wind Children who guard a fallen fragment of the Sky Dome known as Mount Selon, and mountain Goat Hsunchen who are not Chaotic but are constantly mistaken for Broo.

I don't have this worked out, but I really need to learn more about Ragnaglar, I think.

...I never occurred to me before, but now I wonder how the Aldryami Reforestation efforts in Maniria, Carmania, and (IIRC?) eastern Ralios relates to Genert and His Resurrection.

sigh... I need to read so much more...

ARGH.... too many things.... I will get to this tonight!

11 hours ago, jajagappa said:

You can also regain the top by pushing the Power Rune up through the worn down Stasis Rune.  Rather like a volcano (which brings us back to Lodril, oh my!). 😉

Lodril piercing stasis through a disorderly use of law / a lawful use of disorder sounds about right to me.

9 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

The parallel between Zzabur and Malkion vis a vis Acos and Larnste is genius, well spotted. Really gets the noggin going.

It also allows me to continue ranting about Trader Prince Malkionism given that they would be all too happy to connect law to movement through harmony. [EDIT: removed excessive ranting]

....I hope you all can forgive Scott for this 😉