Nevermet

As someone who "only" got into Glorantha 17 years ago, and who for logistical reasons doesn't get to cons, I find the existence of rare texts... frustrating.

EDIT: I do not say this as a criticism of Jeff's priorities, or how anyone here deals with them.  It's just.... they exist, and at that point, no matter how people manage them, I'm probably going to grumble.

I cannot articulate my opinions very well at this point.

2 hours ago, scott-martin said:

Thanks to you guys I know now why the Swarm moved from west to east (to incorporate non-“troll” dark lines on the paternal side similar to “dehori” input into other mistress projects) but more on that anon. Unless of course Samastina enthusiasts want to pick this up…!

This is relevant to my dumb theories and ridiculous interests.

4 hours ago, scott-martin said:

This is how to repair the curse of kin but nobody polite likes to think about it.

I love this.

I'm... unsure I can organize a game around it, but I love it.

12 minutes ago, Hijabg said:

 

 

...You're making me root for Greymane.  

That path would work, but problems include rapids, Beast Valley, and skirting the edge of the Shadow Plateau.  Negotiating with Trolls may not always end well.

Another option is take the Royal and Hendriki Roads from Welmskirk down to Karse, the primary port for good coming to & from Sartar.  From there it's a simple boat ride to Nochet.  The major issue with this route, depending on the year, is Lunar occupation.

55 minutes ago, Eff said:

A very minor Carmanian note- Carmanos, son of Charmain, might well have a name that's just "Charmain" plus a masculine ending. Perhaps the... whatever the opposite of dismembering the Red Goddess did to turn Doskalos Sword-in-the-Eye into the Red Emperor was something learned in the interim between Four Arrows of Light and Castle Blue, or at Castle Blue.

I completely forgot she was dismembered  - which source is that in?
Dismembering powerful people is a rather significant event in Glorantha, to say the least.  Arkat comes to mind.... it's not the most common thing though

On 5/8/2021 at 5:16 AM, Nick Brooke said:

Lunar Empire as a fully-actualised transhumanist projec

You're not making me want a Shadowrun / Cyberpunk Glorantha less, you know.

Great post

10 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

We haven't talked much about the Ascended Masters (sri, sar, sifu, sidi, saints) here because no dominant replacement for the old saints has emerged yet. But it will happen. I believe.

Can I interest you in the pamphlet, Castelein the Traveller and his Journey Toward Ashara?  It demonstrates convincingly that Law in our age is dependant on Change, Harmony, and Communication.

Oh, you're interested? Lovely.  Bidding starts at 5 clacks

6 minutes ago, metcalph said:

Another model for Rokar might be Pelagius, he of the Good Works.  He was shocked at the laxity and decadence of the Early Christians and taught the necessity of Good Works for Salvation.  He was opposed by Augustine of Hippo who won - in the West.  The Eastern Church didn't get execrized about this question because both Pelagius and Augustine wrote in Latin which they couldn't be arsed learning.

Oh, I like that.  As I understand it, Pelagius claimed that humans had all the capacities necessary to know God and do good works, no external grace necessary.  That would fit very well with the type of moralism we see among the Rokari, where the single most important thing is following your caste rules and purity laws.

I understand the comparison between Rokar and the early Protestants such as Luther, Calvin, & Zwingli.  Not only were they seeking a spiritual & moral rejuvenation, but they did so by generally removing things (fewer sacraments, rejecting various practices as going too far beyond what texts justify, etc).  They also usually did so "from above" to a degree: the main figures in the early Reformation were generally well educated.  Rokar, meanwhile, surgically removed all wrong doctrine from the Abiding Book using REASON!, trying to turn the clock back to a time before Hrestol put them on the wrong path.

The analogy, however, falls apart for a few different reasons.  First, while we don't really know much about the origins of Rokarism and its historical context, it's probably very different than the context of Europe that the Reformation emerged within.  While I'm unsure if Rokarism was part of a national project since its inception, post-sundering Seshnela probably dis not have a highly centralized priesthood that various nobles wish to wrest power away from.  Also, I'm very curious what the relationship is between Rokar and Yomili.  Either way, however, Rokar was not a prophetic "cry from the wilderness".

(I'm now wondering what a Peasant Malkioni rebellion religion would look like... it would likely be funky, especially if it didn't fall into paganism)

In general, this is a good thread for me because it's very easy for "inexplicably random" to end up being bad comedy.  So, thanks.

I also appreciate the idea that Newts are both "the slow ones" and also the idea that Newts are on a sort of forever-Heroquest.  The latter point helps me understand how their behaviour can be inexplicable, but also sometimes stable.  For example, Ryzel in Maniria currently has a long-standing trade relationship with the city of Jubal, where the city rulers do random, undignified things as outlined by the Newts, and then in return the Newts give them a rare dye.

Also, while I don't have an immediate plan to use him in my Maniria HQG game, it's interesting to see how New Wymish is a "Bad Dragonewt" precisely because they are explicable to humans:

Quote

New Wyrmish sees himself as the new link between humans and dragonewts. He was a tailed priest, but died in terribly dishonorable circumstances. Reborn, he glories in his rebellion. He is self-important and magically powerful, although not the great leader which he pretends to be. He is known to have extremely powerful magic, however. New Wyrmish sports a great, flowing robe and had his tongue altered to speak most local human languages with a sibilant accent. (Guide, p. 355)

3 hours ago, svensson said:

I admit that my answer was probably too long by those standards, so I'll probably have to work on that one too.

Eh, while I'm not a Grognard, I'm fine with long answers.  I spent far too much time in grad school, but a positive effect of that is that I can follow Gloranthan Deep Dive posts pretty well 🤪

So, please, for me, pontificate away!

11 hours ago, Joerg said:

Dragonewt cities might be best understood as monasteries, places mainly dedicated to spiritual advancement while providing some basic creature comforts allowing the pursuit of that advancement.

This is very helpful to me.  Thank you!

2 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Vewwy vewwy cawefuwwy!

What it says on the tin.

From everything I've read, the Dragonewts are probably the most inhuman and alien of the major Elder Races.  They are inscrutable and utterly confusing.  Partly, this is because they do not fear death, as they are guaranteed to be reborn, and the act of rebirth is necessary for their spiritual development.  It is also because their relationship with reality is qualitatively different than humanity's, beginning with their rejection of all elemental magic.  Then there's the whole fact that they are a race of humanoid dragon-people, which probably makes one think differently about everything.

At the same time, we also know from the texts that there have been times that communities of Newts have been relatively stable allies of human communities and even trading partners.

So, I'm kind of at a loss: On the few times player characters deal with the Newts, how on earth should the GM run them?  Some things are obvious: Newts don't really have the same self-preservation instinct as other species, so things like combat and danger will invoke different stimuli in them than other species.  "They're weird and make no sense" isn't sufficient advice on how to actually RP them.

7 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

On the other hand, I've always been tempted to associate the Blood Sun with Shargash/Tolat. Granted, he has his own planet, but it does sometimes seem like all the celestial children of the Sun (Yelm or pre-Yelm), kinda has a "stake" in the sun as a symbol/object (including the moon, of course), and Shargash being the bloody, red aspect of it seems sensible. It would also fit with it being a darkness entity, aside from Natha as you mention, few celestial deities can pull that off. 

IIRC, there was a thread a few years back where someone (I forget who) wondered aloud about linking the Blood Sun to Spol for a lot of the reasons you say.

I wish I remembered more, but I thought I should mention it.

10 minutes ago, John Biles said:

Rokar is an Old Testament style prophet, who goes into the wilderness and comes out sharp as a razor to tell you that you suck and must change your ways or die.

Rokar is a logical response to the God-Learners' tendency to say that their will was the whole of the law.  Going buck wild = apocalypse.

For all his flaws, the Rokari are never going to try and turn everyone in Genertla into one big dragon or sink entire continents or try to wipe out all humans.

 

Yeah, I'm willing to believe Rokar is a more sympathetic character than Theoblanc

42 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

You're not really supposed to like Rokar

*JoeyFromFriendsShockedFace.GIF*

On 5/6/2021 at 9:34 AM, Akhôrahil said:

It's said of Marcion of Sinope (condemned as a heretic by the Catholic church) that he "edited with a scalpel", cutting away everything in the holy texts he didn't like.

This comparison is not making my like Rokar more.

On 5/6/2021 at 3:04 AM, Joerg said:

The Abiding Book presumably was written by the hand of god, and Rokar was his editor?

That's quite different from the decision Irenaeus faced when selecting four gospels as canonical, condemning the rest to heterodoxy. These gospels were named after mortals who collected those anecdotes.

It's like taking the 10 article slots of the original Credo card game, and reducing those to five or so. (Has the new edition been published yet?)

Malkionism was effectively Hrestolism, although Hrestol reset his approach at least twice to get better. Seshnegi Malkionism was Hrestolism Mk1, and Fronelan Malkionism (other than Jonatelan/Junoran) is derived from his later teachings. Irensavalism apparently was proselytized by Tomastus, a disciple of the later (or possibly latest) approach Hrestol took.

It is interesting that Hrestol's own offspring did not follow his teachings, but being raised on the Vadeli Isles might do that to young Malkioni.

 

There is a weird parallel to the Malkioneranist Sharp Abiding Grimoire, derived from the Abiding Grimoire of the mainstream Makanists.

Both Makanist Hrestolism and Malkioneranist Reconstructionalism were called "God Learners". The Makanists were the mainstream Malkioni. Their sorcerers maybe a little less so.

Looking at the results of Rokar's reforms, it looks like he repudiates Makanism by embracing Malkioneranist methods.

I wonder whether this is another case of something intended to aim at the clerics only and then spread into a popular movement, similar to the 95 theses Luther wrote in Latin to start a discussion inside the clergy. It seems to have been Watcher Mardron who allied with Bailifes the Hammer to dictate a radical reform of the caste system, abandoning the Zzabur caste and joining the Talar caste with the Men-of-All quasi-caste.

Loved this post

I don't know enough to even ask questions, but I'm enjoying the discussion

8 minutes ago, davecake said:

WARNING this product contains humour? 

Humour?  In your RPG?  It's more likely than you think!

That's all completely true. I still think that Rokarism moves toward the Brithini more than anyon other extant form of Malkionism.  It rejects Hrestolism hard as Rokarism does in favor of law, caste, etc.  I completely agree with the notion of Rokarism having a reactionary element to it, and they probably have a rhetoric about taking the "last teachings of Malkion" and applying it to modern day, ignoring all the Hrestolist heresies that caused so many problems.

Put another way, since Rokar isn't starting with immortal humans, the law and order being promoted must be qualitatively different than what the Brithini maintain, though it will have more of a family resemblance than what's going on up in Loskalm.